Interacting with the Map

[conavar]

Books:

 

There are countless books scattered across the map. Idea: Use obscure public-domain books (say, from Project Gutenberg, or donated from unpubbed authors) to link them to actual text. Works for inclusion would be screened to make sure that they make sense within the EL world. Gutenberg is especially promising source, because most of the works are older ones, so you get an archaic writing style and few references to technology.

 

 

How about instead of RL authors have the content written by the players of EL sure theres plenty of budding authors/writers playing who would like others to read there work (EL would hold copyright i would imagine).

 

This is also handled in the story section of the forum so wether it would pay to have story books ingame as well is debatable

Edited November 11, 2006 by conavar

[chosenflea]

For a guild raid, a guild could set whether it can raid other guildmaps or not. If the owner of the guildmap says that they would also like to raid other maps, their map becomes raidible to other players whose guildmaps are also raidable. It would also get more people to buy guildmaps, increasing the money Roja and Ent get to work on and run this game.

 

Or, you could only have your guildmap raided if you are at war, and also get extra frag for killing off all guild members in their own headquarters.

[Aislinn]

How about instead of RL authors have the content written by the players of EL sure theres plenty of budding authors/writers playing who would like others to read there work (EL would hold copyright i would imagine).

We have this ingame already. If you search and read the forums a bit, you can even find out what stories, what authors, and where they are!

[trollson]

KarenRei:

There is already a book-reading interface in the client, and a couple of books which use it. It can either load a book from the client's data directory, or receive the book contents directly from the server as a message.

 

I do think that it needs to be extended to also accept a URL from the server, for loading books from other sources.

 

The scheme I suggested would allow a book to be a link to a consistent entry in an "EL library"; the same book returns the same link, until the library or map is updated. Allowing players to return to the same location to re-read the book.

 

Any books scrounged from the internet would need to be edited, condensed, and reformatted to fit within the book interface.

conavar:

Agreed. EL specific information, stories, and such would be more applicable than a RL book resource, however archaic.

 

As Aislinn says, there is already a lot of material already available, and I was assuming that this would form the foundation of the library. Not only stories and myths, but secrets and receipies that need to be found in-game, rather than spoon-fed.

flea:

Raiding guild maps is already possible; there is simply not much there to plunder (other than possible hbags). Really, it would be easier on-map storage (see

Containers

) which would give the booty that would encourage raids.

 

So rather than this being a suggestion, it was ment to illustrate one possible consequence.

 

Of course, guild wars now add a new element to the equation; though its unlikely that these will have any impact on the non-PK, merchant and artisan guilds who would be likely to have more assets stashed away.

[Roja]

KarenRei:

There is already a book-reading interface in the client, and a couple of books which use it.

 

Any books scrounged from the internet would need to be edited, condensed, and reformatted to fit within the book interface.

 

 

 

There are more than a couple books, in fact there are 60 books already in the game which are readable! Just open the languages/en/books folder to see them all!

 

Secondly, I don't want RL books in the game, just ones written by players specifically for the game.

[KarenRei]

KarenRei:

There is already a book-reading interface in the client, and a couple of books which use it.

 

Any books scrounged from the internet would need to be edited, condensed, and reformatted to fit within the book interface.

 

 

There are more than a couple books, in fact there are 60 books already in the game which are readable! Just open the languages/en/books folder to see them all!

 

Secondly, I don't want RL books in the game, just ones written by players specifically for the game.

 

Well, there are thousands of books on the map, so you'll be waiting a long, long, long time, if that is to be a limitation. Even if you want each book to be a single page, you're looking at something that makes The Lord of the Rings look small.

 

Have you read the sort of things you find on Project Gutenberg? Cut out the ones having to do with religion, and they tend to fit neatly into this sort of world. Many could be adapted simply by changing more common names or places to ones of this world. Let me quote a few random picks. You'll get an idea of the sort of variety you run into:

 

---

NIGHT! And a black and barren sky

With a wet wind in from the coast.

And only the kites to make reply

To heaving body and pleading cry--

Here where the lost battalions lie,

I walked last night with a ghost.

 

His face was gray, his hands were red,

And a ghostly mare he rode,

That wearily stepped, with drooping head,

Over the shadowy lines of dead,

And rolled her eyes, and shook with dread

Under her foam-white load.

 

The ghost turned not to left or right.

But mutely he beckoned me,

And moved like a pillar of livid light

Through the humid dark of the foggy night,

With eyes deep-sunken and greenly bright

As phosphor on the sea.

 

He led me where in ghostly files

The dead slept with their toys.

Miles, miles, and never-ending miles,

Along the valley's mournful aisles,

The voiceless, vague, misshapen piles

Of men and golden boys!

 

He led me up the gory hill

By wood and sodden heath.

Ravage! And faces, lone and chill,

In the murmuring wash of the willow-rill!

Slaughter! And voices, begging shrill

The merciful grace of death.

 

A waning moon broke, sickly pale,

Through the muddy fog's disguising;

And over the breadth of the ghastly vale

The battle-wake like a steamer's trail,

And a heaving as of waves in a gale,

Rising and falling and rising!

 

And out of the air, and up from the plain,

The ancient battle-story!--

Of stricken love and laughter slain,

And hearts beneath the hoofs of pain--

But not a breath of human gain,

And not a word of glory.

 

(etc)

-------

 

Lets pick another random one:

 

_PROPOSALS for Building in every County a_ WORKING-ALMS-HOUSE _or_

HOSPITAL, _as the best Expedient to perfect the Trade and Manufactory of

Linnen Cloth_.

 

WHEREBY,

 

I. All Poor people and their Children from five or six years old may be

employed and maintained; as also all Beggars, Vagrants, _&c._ restrained

and for ever prevented, and so all Parishes eased of that intolerable

Burden.

 

II. Many Hundred Thousand gold kept at home, which now every year goes

out of the Kingdom for _Linnen_, whereby our Wealth becomes a prey to other

Nations.

 

III. Much Land improved in every County to great advantage of Landlord and

Tenant.

 

_Humbly Offered to the Consideration of the great Wisdom of

the whole Nation, now Assembled_.

 

Considering the great Complaints of Poverty, the heavy Burdens most

Parishes lie under to maintain their Poor, which daily encrease; the Swarms

of Beggars, Vagrants and Idle People in City and Countrey; the great, and

'tis fear'd, irrecoverable decay of our Ancient Trade for Woollen Cloth;

the vast Charge we are yearly at in purchasing Linnen, _&c._ from other

Nations, whereby our Treasure is exhausted, and our Lands fall for want of

being improved some other way, besides planting crops, cotton for thread,

_&c._ Which are become of so low a price, as scarce to turn to Account: And

understanding, that for remedying thereof, the Improving the Manufactory of

Linnen is now under Debate, I have taken the boldness to Offer the

following PROPOSAL, which if thought fit to be put in practice, will (in my

opinion) infallibly conduce to all the good Ends desired and intended; viz.

 

_That there may be Erected in every County according to its Extent or

Populousness, a greater or lesser_ Working-Alms-House, _wherein the

Poor may be continually employed in the Manufactory of_ Linnen Cloth.

 

The Advantages whereof are evident; For,

 

I. This Manufactory is an Employment for the weakest people, not capable of

stronger Work, viz. Women and Children, and decrepit or aged people, now

the most chargeable; as likewise for Beggars and Vagrants, who live idly,

and by the sweat of other mens Labours, and can no way so effectually be

brought to Industry and Order, as when reduced into to narrow a Compass or

Confinement under fitly qualified Rulers, Officers, and Regular Government.

 

II. These Working-Alm-Houses may raise and supply the Nation yearly with a

sufficient Stock of Linnen Cloth (the finest sort excepted) if true

measures be taken, and the Design effectually prosecuted; As for example,

1352000 pounds worth of Cloth may yearly be spun in them only, besides what

is made in private Families--Thus demonstrated;

 

(etc)

 

----

 

Or, how about:

 

THE HERO OF HILL HOUSE

 

 

 

CHAPTER 1

 

HOME AND MOTHER

 

It was the evening of a quiet day in late autumn, and the inmates of the

little farm home were gathered safely together around the supper-table. I

say the family, but they were not all there. Father's place was vacant, for

he had gone to town that afternoon and would not be home till late bedtime.

His reason for being late was the great shadow over this otherwise happy

home. The children, down to baby Doyle, three years old, knew that when he

came, he would be in no condition to be seen in the presence of his

children, and that money which was needed badly in his home would have been

spent for strong drink.

 

But all the others were there. Mother sat in her place at the foot of the

table, and little Doyle sat at her right hand in his high chair. The others

were ranged on both sides of the table, leaving the vacant place at the

head. There were eight children in all, the eldest a boy of sixteen, and

the youngest little Doyle. The three older children were boys, George and

Wilbur, sixteen and fifteen years old, respectively, and Austin, aged

thirteen. Then were two girls, Amy and Nell. After them came Harry, a fine

little fellow of seven, Lila, a tiny girl of five, and last of all the

baby.

 

Every child was robust and rosy, ready for a hearty meal and all the fun

that was to be had. Mother sat as queen, a dear, beloved queen, and the

children as they talked back and forth in happy freedom turned to her for

reference and sanction in all that was said. There was not one but bowed in

adoration at the beautiful mother's feet. And her eyes, how lovingly they

rested upon them! And how she seemed to be treasuring them in her heart!

This was indeed her kingdom, and she was happy. But of course there was a

sadness in her happiness, because her husband and the father of her

children was choosing a path that took him out of the family circle. But

since such was his choice, she was determined to make it up to her lads and

lassies to the best of her ability, and throw her teaching and daily

instruction against the influence of their father. She was making this

evening pleasant that they might forget the shadow that hung over them.

 

(etc)

---

 

Gutenberg is jam-packed full of "generic" books from an earlier time. I really don't see how you could ever hope to fill the literally thousands of books sitting about the maps with things pertaining specifically to the game. Nor would that be realistic. Our world is not jam-packed full of books that deal specifically with our history and lands. It would be strange indeed if you walked into a person's house and all you could find was books about Jesus and American history/folklore. Most of our books, in fact, are snippets of every day life, romance, action, twists on tales old and new, etc. And Gutenberg is rich in a cross-section of such old books.

 

That doesn't mean it should be an only source -- far from it. But if one is to fill the books on the map, we'll need thousands of titles. If you have a better source, I'd be interested in hearing it. All I care is that books become interactive. It's a bit frustrating, when you first start out, to see items that you should be able to interact with all over the place that you can't touch. Books were at the top of my list.

Edited November 14, 2006 by KarenRei

[JohnTheWarder]

There are more than a couple books, in fact there are 60 books already in the game which are readable! Just open the languages/en/books folder to see them all!

 

 

What do i need to read an XML document?

[trollson]

What do i need to read an XML document?

Well, that makes my point about having the books held on a server

 

Part of the game is exploration and finding things, which is lost if people can just look through the data directory for the information.

[ttlanhil]

What do i need to read an XML document?

eyes, a working computer, and something like notepad. granted, until you understand how XML works, it'll be a bit of a hassle to read, but that's all you need. To read in book format, AFAIK, there's only one thing that's designed to parse that dialect of XML: the EL client

[fosztogato]

Hi!

 

I mean its a good idea.

 

I love this game, because i dont love to fight, and in it i can make many other activity.

 

One thing i miss from the game is the exploring skill.

 

So if u go around and use the view mode on items - u will get experience point,

if u write a new map, or just make new sign on it - u will get experience point,

if u find secret items, entrance or animal "birth" place -u will get too.

 

U can buy new books

- auto detection books - flowers, animal, minerals, etc.

- way finding (without it u can click on map to auto move maximum 20 step)

- better view (u can enlarge items)

- overview (u can see under water, or see on the building over keylock)

- map writing (u cant mark on map manual - it will be automatic)

- press book (u can copy your own map to each other)

 

U can buy or sell maps at shop or from other people (download from the net only the empty map)

 

U can wear new items

- a pair of glass - to get experience faster

- a map bag - u cant loose maps when die

 

Some items will be changeble (seasonable - like 10 days a month - new month maybe new special month)

- flowers not always bloom (just some season)

- animal not always born at same place (other season they migrate new place)

- minerals can be run out and can be find in new place too

- buildings can be go up, and can be shatter

- ships cant move in all seasons to all place (low water or ice)

- shopkeepers (bots) move to new place

 

 

So i think it will be funny, but just an idea.

[trollson]

fosztogato:

Most of the things you suggest have been suggested before, or are not possible in the game as it stands, or are already possible.

 

I do agree with your sentiment that there should be more tangiable reward for playing the game, other than fighting and making items

[1]

.

"So if u go around and use the view mode on items - u will get experience point"

 

How would you stop characters just running around clicking on things repeatedly to accumulate lots of experience? To prevent repetition the game would have to record what objects a character has interacted with over their lifetime, which is not feasibile.

 

Quests can provide a more controlled reward for exploration; and enhancing the set of tools available to quest authors seems preferable.

 

"Some items will be changeble (seasonable..."

 

Do a search on 'seasons'. I suggested a while ago that it may be possible to

seasonally modify

the existing maps by adding a layer of indirection to the map objects.

 

"- buildings can be go up, and can be shatter"

 

The current map format does not support dynamic changes required for adding buildings

etc

. This is something Entropy is working on.

 

" - minerals can be run out and can be find in new place too"

 

Limited resources has been suggested under this topic and elsewhere. This would dramatically change the dynamics of the economy, which may not be a bad things, but has its own problems. The economic model is undermined by the fact that resources are essentially free and inexhaustable. But then, limiting resources would make (virtual) life very difficult for new characters, as access to resources would be at a premium they couldn't afford.

 

Another approach would be to limit supply and demand from NPCs.

[1] It would make a better game to remove experience for actions all together, and only reward players for completing goals. Though this requires a much more dynamic quest/mission/job system.

Edited February 14, 2008 by trollson

[fosztogato]

Trollson

 

I think u have trueth in many things.

 

I didnt read all forums, before suggest some ideas, sorry about it.

 

"So if u go around and use the view mode on items - u will get experience point"

 

Yes it looks to easy to stand in same place and just click for exp. And too many work to control all players click only one on all items.

Maybe workable if control only no click twice at same place - one click one move on click - and only 1-2 experience point getting with it. So that not will the best way to get exp - i think players not collect 1 million exp with it, but newbie can do it.

Or u can get i biggest experience if u click on all same items on map - like on IP click all lilacs then get 100 exp -, but i think too if it will quest it will be controlable.

 

"Some items will be changeble (seasonable..."

I saw it now:) I think if some animal didnt birth in winter and player cant kill them, players must be doing something else - harvesting, manufacturing,... so the animal furs price will changing. IP is ever will be an evergreen island for newbie.

Maybe economy works like "no drop day" in this season.

 

" - minerals can be run out and can be find in new place too"

Limited gold mine at rivers when low water or can harvest river drift - new item - in special day at randomly places.

 

"[1] It would make a better game to remove experience for actions all together, and only reward players for completing goals. Though this requires a much more dynamic quest/mission/job system."

I think it good idea, but not all players so good in english, and not all players can read yet.

So if it work with pictogram not words it will good.

 

I think on quest ideas now, because it workable i think.

 

Good work for all.

[Derin]

Hi!

 

One thing i miss from the game is the exploring skill.

 

So if u go around and use the view mode on items - u will get experience point,

if u write a new map, or just make new sign on it - u will get experience point,

if u find secret items, entrance or animal "birth" place -u will get too.

 

U can buy new books

- auto detection books - flowers, animal, minerals, etc.

- way finding (without it u can click on map to auto move maximum 20 step)

- better view (u can enlarge items)

- overview (u can see under water, or see on the building over keylock)

- map writing (u cant mark on map manual - it will be automatic)

- press book (u can copy your own map to each other)

 

U can buy or sell maps at shop or from other people (download from the net only the empty map)

 

U can wear new items

- a pair of glass - to get experience faster

- a map bag - u cant loose maps when die

 

So i think it will be funny, but just an idea.

And I miss the spelling skill, every time you use "u" instead of "you" you get -2 xp

[fosztogato]

Derin

 

Oh, sorry again, i try to write full words in the future.

[KarenRei]

At risk of straying too far off the original topic (making the objects on the maps that it *seems* you should be able to interact with able to be interacted with), I do like the idea of limited resources. I would suggest that it should be possible to move to such an system without any shock treatment to the economy.

 

1) Change all resources over to the new system, with a large max in capacity to harvest and an effectively unexhaustible harvesting regeneration rate. This change should be indistinguishable to users.

 

2) Slowly start sliding down the max capacity and the regeneration rates with each update by a constant amount. Watch the economy and see how it responds. Most critically, watch areas that receive heavy harvesting, such as the lilacs near WSC, roses in VOTD, and many of the Crystal Caverns deposits. If things respond appropriately, people will slowly start fanning out to harvest in other places (which would be a good thing, IMHO).

 

Animals would be trickier, and I wouldn't want to open up that can of worms until plants and minerals are balanced. Although it would be really neat in the long run to see, say, a puma chase and kill a rabbit (obviously not leaving behind things for players to pick up -- too easy, that would be).

 

Graphical effects could be as simple as a glScalef(). Some resources may take special consideration to have it look right, though; I think we'd need to see it in action to know for sure.

Edited November 22, 2006 by KarenRei

[Aislinn]

At risk of straying too far off the original topic (making the objects on the maps that it *seems* you should be able to interact with able to be interacted with), I do like the idea of limited resources. I would suggest that it should be possible to move to such an system without any shock treatment to the economy.

 

1) Change all resources over to the new system, with a large max in capacity to harvest and an effectively unexhaustible harvesting regeneration rate. This change should be indistinguishable to users.

 

2) Slowly start sliding down the max capacity and the regeneration rates with each update by a constant amount. Watch the economy and see how it responds. Most critically, watch areas that receive heavy harvesting, such as the lilacs near WSC, roses in VOTD, and many of the Crystal Caverns deposits. If things respond appropriately, people will slowly start fanning out to harvest in other places (which would be a good thing, IMHO).

 

Animals would be trickier, and I wouldn't want to open up that can of worms until plants and minerals are balanced. Although it would be really neat in the long run to see, say, a puma chase and kill a rabbit (obviously not leaving behind things for players to pick up -- too easy, that would be).

 

Graphical effects could be as simple as a glScalef(). Some resources may take special consideration to have it look right, though; I think we'd need to see it in action to know for sure.

Actually both of these ideas (resources and animals) have already been discussed. I would search for you but being the day before Thanksgiving and I have loads of cooking and cleaning to do, you are on your own to search and find it. I think +limited +resources should do it.

[KarenRei]

No worries -- I'm not surprised that it has already been discussed, actually. Seems a pretty logical step. I was just following up on an earlier post in this thread.

[trollson]

Limited Resources and Prospecting

This is only tenuously connected to interacting with the map, but follows on from what has just been added.

 

To take limited (mineral & ore) resources to the full extent; it would be interesting to make characters search (prospect) for deposites. This means that deposites visible on the map are just hints (improved chance of finding), not guarenteed resources.

 

Any rock object (including ores and minerals) could be mined; mostly this produced 'rock'. There is a chance, dependant on the miner's skill, that a deposite of a useful mineral or ore is unearthed.

 

A notional hbag under the rock object

(unwalkable tile)

is seeded with some quantity of rock; this is returned during mining.

 

When the deposite is exhaused, it is replenished. There is a random chance (possible affected by the last miner's skill?) that it is replenished by an ore or mineral rather than rock. In the case of visible ore and minerals, this is guarenteed to be the same type of resource; for generic rocks then a random resource is used.

In effect:

The miners are digging through rocks until they find a new deposit.

Rocks may also be returned when a mining attempt fails (but these do not reduce the rock deposite being mined through). AFK miners will fill up with rubble rather than their intended resource.

 

So, if a Guild finds a deposit of ore, they may want to keep it secret and collect it all. Others may see them mining at a location and try to claim jump. Mining scrum ensues...

 

There would be a token experience for mining rocks, and a bonus experience for unearthing a new deposit of something other than rock. When minable resources become limited, the hourly harvesting experience limit may become redundant.

 

There may be some use for plain rocks: Throwing at people, use in construction, making smaller rocks?

Humanoid Skulls and Graves &c

A new spell

"Talk with the Dead"

, caste on a (humanoid) skull; returns some information attached to that corpse. This can be managed as with readable books (ie, the skull object ID indexes into a repository of information); but there should be something special here...

2007-05-19 Additional thoughts without bumping the thread...

 

Sleeping in Beds

I can't bear to leave my character sitting on a random street corner when I log out -- I always try to find him a bed for the night -- and I've always thought that there should be some reward for being so conciencious.

 

So, what if the default

"use"

action for beds was that you go to sleep in comfort, helping you recover health and mana while logged out.

 

When you "use" a bed, the server flags that you intend to sleep there, and records your position. If you log out in that location, the server records the (RL) time and flags that you are sleeping.

 

When you log in, if you have been sleeping, each hour logged you've been logged out counts as one minute's recovery (food does not decrease).

 

But you cannot get any real rest while wearing armour etc., so each 1 EMU of equipment worn (not inventory) is one hour's sleep that does not count.

 

This is a small effect, but gives a reason to be nice to your avatar.

Edited May 19, 2007 by trollson

[pennifuin]

First off I love these ideas and would doubly love to see more interactive maps.</quote>

 

Here Here!

 

<quote>About eating food off plates and other non-harvestable places: I am against the concept of auto-charging for it. You don't pay a friend for the meal when you visit their home, or if you see a loaf of bread on somebody's picnic table...The only time I can see it even being partially reasonable is in a tavern. Possibly have tavern-specific food items on plates for taverns? </quote>

 

A new object...A complete 'Meal on a Plate' - as apposed to plates of food made up of individual items. Cpi;d these meals also be depletable? 'There is no more food left on the Plate - You ate the tavern out of food you fat.....etc etc'

 

<quote>Also, if you can auto-charge food on a plate, how about auto-charge to rent a room for the night? Make a tavern-specific bed that if you sit on it, you get charged for a specified amount of time.

 

Perhaps it could give some sort of bonus, Fast regen is an obvious one, but perhaps it could give it WITH Power Saving. Has to be worth the charge. Also the higher Standard the tavern, IP Inn Vs lets say, Ida Inn, the faster you regen (but the more you pay!!!).

[pennifuin]

PS Sorry i didnt realise that this was such an old thread. Or that the thread was 3 pages long!!!