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dysfuntional market system

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already off the subject again, more senseless arguing =P you people are hopless -_-

 

I know but this topic was hopeless already (sorry :)) There has been tons of those topics and you always get the same answers :)

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I dont see why training a/d should be profitable, its training afterall, you pay to get your a/d up. The goal of a/d training is PK which should be profitable. Goals of other manufacturing kind skills are making things and selling them for profit.

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Guest alobar

There shouldnt be a way to become a top 5 fighter easily. There shouldnt be a way to make money easily. There shouldnt be a way to make high level stuff easily, it all should be hard, you should work for it.

 

Yes it is,its called item shop and credit card.

 

Well Ghengas,you figured out what many fighters have known for a long time now.If fighting is your passion mathematically you will become broke and you should need to do other things witch it will lead on you never becoming a top fighter.Low monster gc drops in compination with high armor brake rates and the introduction of rostogol stones in the pk maps leaves no income for a fighter.Another solution is to join a good guild,have friends that can help you.

 

Like hardcore said the aim of a game is supposed to be fun not to try to take as many items and gc out of the game,making everything incredibly slowly reducing the game to an irritations point.There is a thing called realife for realism,many play games as an escape from the commodity and stress of everyday life.Still i fail to see the "realism" in the high armor brake rate where monsters can destroy your whole set after a couple of min even 2 armor pieces with 1 hit.I do see now how the high break rates favour the item shop though.

 

Despite all that i must be fair and say that EL has through the last 2-3 years improved in many ways,mainly with more content added.Still may plagues of the past arent cured yet,1 of them is the market due mostly to wrong treatments applied and a wrong approach of how to solve the plethora of items and gc into the game.

 

 

Ps.Trying to make HE with cooldown,specially in low alch lvls, it could lead one to the edge of paranoia.

 

Thats my 2 gc.

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Fight for money, fight for drops, serp spawns? Or fight for XP, thats your decision.

 

When I started Ogre, I serp'd them. Not for the drops, but because I got better xp doing that than I did anything else. Same with clops, same with fluffy. And when the fluffs get old, I'm going to serp the Chims.

 

As for the 'it's hard to be top this that....', I don't really care about that. I just want to do what I like doing, the rest will come with time. Just a longer time since I have to stop and dig rocks to make ends meet if I follow the suggestions here.

 

And this isn't meant @ you either, Piper. Just the ones that keep using the same lame arguments every time this comes up. Same ones that don't mind sitting and mixing most of the time, and when they do fight, it doesn't bother them to camp out for hours doing what they could've done in 1. But they walk away with an inv full of gold and think they've done well.

 

Here's what an hour and a half monster training gets me:

xp.JPG

 

Not too bad for my current lvls. I left a bit early or I might have gotten 1kgc or so. I started out with 300 HEs and 75 SRs. You do the math.

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~1 hour fluffs gives 3k gc oh wauw alch gives u 3 times as much in the same time.

 

Lol ~!!11!!1oneelevenone

 

If I could make 3kgc profit on 1 hour with alchemy I would pwn this game :)

 

 

I can make 8kgc profit on alch in one hour. what are you doing wrong? :)

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Usually, I don't contribute to these sort of debates, but in this case I had to say something.

 

A large chunk of the EL playerbase is fighters. And there has been so much complaining from them, that many changes have been made in order to improve the money that can be made from fighting, while a number of other skills languish. In my opinion, these complaints about fighting making no money is complete bunk.

 

Low level fighters will be fighting animals. Furs fetch a decent amount, and raw meat is always in demand. Plenty of money to be made here, good start to the skill, more than can be said for others. Once you move onto monsters, there's more money to be made. Bones can be sold to players, the gold drops aren't too bad, and there's the occassional weapon/armor/book drop that you can sell for extra money. I had a friend who was making his char a near enough pure fighter, and he made enough money from gold drops, and selling weapon/armor drops to Trik to be able to replace all the essences, potions and equipment he used, and still had some left over. If you aren't making money from fighting, you obviously aren't doing it right. Not to mention, the higher level fighters are getting it really good with all these rare drops to sell.

 

I myself am an all-rounder, so I can make my own essences/potions/armour, but if I were to sell all the things I gained from fighting, I would have plenty of money to buy the equipment I needed rather than making it.

 

To summarise, fighting is one of the few skills where you can make profit and make decent exp. There are many skills where we are lucky to break even, we have to decide between good exp, or good money. Fighting can do both, and I'm sick of the complaints that its otherwise. If you insist on fighting things too tough for you, you should expect losses, just as a low-level alcher should expect to make losses when trying an essence too high for them. Fighting has been given plenty of changes in order to balance the money/exp gain, I'd like to see something for the rest of the skills, rather than throwing more money at the fighters.

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First you say:

 

basically any stat other than a/d can earn you plenty of money and/or material possessions.

Then you say:

 

think about it next time you spend an hour in the market channel hopelessly trying to sell somthing

So which is it? Can other skills make "plenty of money" or can they not as they "hopelessly try to sell"?

 

In any event, from my experience, the money making skills are: harvesting (harvest and sell), alchemy, and potions. All the others tend to be break-even or net loss as they consume more ingredients than they produce good to sell (as prices for finished good continue to drop).

 

Personally, I make my money by harvesting/selling titanium ore, and use that money to finance all the other skills I work on (plus buy a few toys).

 

The point/topic was almost covered in my 2nd post bkc, that of making a living from fighting.

Utilising a new selling point for pk drops would cover this and provide a much needed income for fighters of all levels above 60+ a/d (as an example) that does slithly better than trik sales do (which are WAY out of sync with market values regardless of HOW the market prices fluctuate).

 

You require a high inorganic nexus for harvesting your titanium ores, and i can tell you now, without a doubt there will not be a single fighter out there willing to spend pp's on that much inorganic nexus just so they can sell off tit ore, especially when a high percentage of fighters will also be antisocial as well.

 

Whilst other skills are here portrayed as being able to make better cash than the average fighter, they would ALL make a better income if this new outlet for pk drops was implemented. Manuers would have a greater outlet for their wares to fighters, fighters would sell off to the new npc outlet for pk drops, alchemists would sell off to manuers, and harvesters to alchemists.

 

A decent workable cycle of cashflow. Admittingly, the cash would end up piling up at the alchemist/harvester levels but given the sheer amount of time/effort spent mixing the huge amounts that would be required to keep the rest of the skills running smoothly for the rest of the community, is that such a bad thing?

 

oh yeah, its just click click chat chat innit? my bad :)

 

ok am shutting up now.

 

*edited due to excessive imbibing of vesines produce

Edited by Pyewacket

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If you aren't making money from fighting, you obviously aren't doing it right. Not to mention, the higher level fighters are getting it really good with all these rare drops to sell.

 

Did you bother to read past the 1st page of this thread before jumping in? If not, read it all.

 

As for 'with all these rare drops to sell'... you need to check that. MM on market = 6k. Mirror = 5k. BP = almost might be able to give it away. Rare books might as well leave in the bag.

 

Last 2 weeks I have gotten 1 MM cloak and I think 2 tit chains. W00T lots of extra gold there. Selling the books I got to the book-buying NPC wouldn't be worth the walk even if I weren't antisocial.

 

Try training up to something that breaks more than you can carry in armor a trip, then chime in. Or at least try fighting something that can hurt you, force you to heal a few times....

 

I could make more money with my alch or pot lvl than I can fighting. I could also harvest and make loads with my EMUs. I just don't care to be forced to do that.

 

I could make more gc per hour making FEs, if you want the truth.

 

But doing what I like doing doesn't make money, it drains it. Again, do a little training instead of sitting around clicking, maybe you can see the problem.

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Guest ohmygod

Has anyone checked out the ranking for the top 5 a/d players? (look at the non sold/bought ones especially) They have some pretty good lvls in skills other than a/d.

 

This is an example of what you need to do to reach the top. What is not shown on the rankings list is the age of the character. This would give an indication of the time required to reach the top lvls.

 

Quick gc and quick lvling would make the game boring real quick in my opinion.

 

a bit scattered response but need to watch my health bar.... damn failed restore, hope no one bagjumps me :brooding:

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You can make money in almost all skill's if you try hard enough, ok some make more money than others, and some get more exp than others. Its the way the game is. We all want to make the skill we use the most make more money, and think that we have it worse off.

 

I train pratical every skill, and have found that you can't make money being a true anything apart from harvesting. I would love to be able to be just a potioner, buying everything i need and just selling of my pots for money, but thats imposissble, and its like this for every skill.

 

Either the game needs to be changed alot so that every skill works well, or we just stop bitching about it and get on with it. It's not like there is no way to earn money, if there was i would understand why so many people would bitch about it, but this is ways, yes you might have to do something you don't enjoy as much, but come on is it really that bad?

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If you aren't making money from fighting, you obviously aren't doing it right. Not to mention, the higher level fighters are getting it really good with all these rare drops to sell.

Did you bother to read past the 1st page of this thread before jumping in? If not, read it all.

 

Yes, I have read the entire thread, but obviously you can't take the time to read my whole post. :) And in case it didn't occur to you, an all-rounder does all skills, including fighting, so don't insinuate that my opinion is invalid because I sit clicking all day. Everything we do in this game is clicking. :D

 

When I said 'high-level fighters' I meant exactly that. I meant the ones who are taking on yetis and such are making some really good gc now - no more tears cloak goes for about 150k, the new potions books 20-30k, and so on. And drops of the new potions - those fetch a nice amount at the new potion NPC. Even the items you mentioned are decent money - titanium chain fetches a lot more since the rise in EFE prices, capes are one of the few things that don't vary too much in price, and the low-end book drops can make 500gc each on the market if you take the time to find a buyer. Even the magic swords books are still worth a decent amount, and those are spread out over a range of fighting levels - and if all you do is fighting all the time, there's a good chance you'll get at least one dropped.

 

And for your information, I train on unarmed male orcs. They are suited to my level - I get decent exp and drops, and don't lose too much equipment or restore lots. I train in steel chain/leathers, so even if I do break stuff, its not too expensive to replace. I made enough in one session selling most of my weapon/armor drops to Trik, as well as the other drops to cover my losses. If you are training on things that are causing you to lose so much equipment, you're obviously fighting something too tough.

 

I did not say you could make huge amounts of money from fighting, I said only that you could make money if you were a pure fighter. You can make money and get exp, whereas with a number other skills, its either or. If you want to make big money, you're going to have to take on another skill, as most fighters do.

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Everything we do in this game is clicking. :)

 

this what i said in the first place, apparantly a few people misunderstood me and took it as an insult to alchemists or w/e, thats not how i intedned it.

 

ty terena for pointing that out =P

Edited by Ghengas

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I've been thinking about these issues, and a lot of ground has been covered ad nauseum with very little progress. So I'm going to propose a different framework with which to view these issues. I present two assumptions that I believe are true for EL economy, and then ask a third question directly relevant to the topic of fighting. The answer to that question and whether or not the answer represents a problem is what I think lies at the heart of this debate.

 

(1) You either spend time making gc or xp.

I've heard this a million times, and it's true of almost every profession in EL. There's a sliding scale between XP and GC, and you have to choose which one you wish to emphasize.

 

For mixing professions(alc, pot, manu, craft):

  • If you want to maximize xp/hr, you work on products that provide the most xp/time after failures. This is usually something with about 10-30% ing. loss. Losing both food and ings ends up costing you lots of gc(or time) in return. So maximizing xp minimizes gc.
  • If you want to maximize gc/hr, you work on products with almost no fail, but this results in much less xp gained/hr.

Fighting is similar:

  • If you want to maximize xp/hr, you train on high lvl monsters that take a long time to kill. Look at stroker's screenshot for an example: 200,000 oa xp/hr. It cost him 2100gc in HE, 1500gc in SR, plus possible equipment failure for 1000gc in loot.
  • If you want to maximize gc/hr, you hunt low lvl monsters that can be killed quickly, and provide loot. Funny enough, not many fighters do this. But some do, they hunt for meat, or gc, or drops.

(2) For most professions there are "sweet-spots."

I define a "sweet-spot" as some product that can be mixed/produced once the character reaches a certain lvl in his/her profession that produces both decent xp and decent gc. Some "sweet-spots" may be more gc-heavy, and some may be more xp-heavy. Regardless these "sweet-spots" provide a reprieve from the constant tradeoff between earning either gc or xp.

 

Here is a list of "sweet-spots" I'm familiar with. Those experts in these professions can certainly find more. Please feel free to add or correct my knowledge.

  1. Alchemy: FE, HE, ME, iron/steel bars
  2. Potioning: Reasoning pots(esp. before vial update), SR's, True Sight pots
  3. Manufacturing: Leather Helms, ...(nothing in mid-levels)... modable swords(pre-update), new armors/weapons(post-update)
  4. Crafting: polishing gems(?), ...(nothing mid-levels)... c2 rings

And what you see, time and again, are alchers, potioners, manu'ers, crafters focusing on these "sweet-spots," b/c that's where they can gain both gc and xp, or at the very least gain xp without going broke.

 

(3) So the question I ask now is, do these "sweet-spots" exist for fighters?

 

My initial hypothesis is "No, they do not." There are two main reasons I think this is true: (1) limited resources, and (2) kill-xp inverse relationship.

 

Limited Resources:

Do certain monsters exist that provide better loot and xp than other monsters? It is certainly possible. Some would argue gargoyles, others would argue trolls, others, still would argue snow leopards or bears. For extremely high lvl fighters, one could argue yetis. I'm going to limit my discussion to two of these examples: trolls and gargoyles.

Trolls and gargoyles are different than all the products mentioned above by one important facet: They are limited. There are a limited number of spawns. When a resource is limited, it cannot be mass-exploited for its benefits. Unlike SR's, where 10 potioners can all buy wine, sit in front of Judith and produce 1k SR's each, 10 40/40 a/d fighters cannot tromp through the WS garg cave gaining both xp and gc because garg spawns are limited.

 

Kill-XP inverse relationship:

You can only earn loot if you kill monsters. The faster you kill monsters, the faster you earn gold. You can only earn xp if you extend your fights. The slower you kill monsters, the more xp you gain. This direct inverse relationship between gc to xp does not exist as strongly in any of the other professions mentioned above. But for fighting, it exists, and cannot be changed. Thus, for a "sweet-spot" to truly exist that provide both an increase of xp and an increase of gc violates this fundamental relationships.

 

Conclusion:

If the answer is that fighting as a profession has no "sweet-spots" like the other professions, the next question should be "Is this a problem?" If it is a problem, then constructive solutions on how to develop fighter "sweet-spots" may be a good subject. Or people may decide that it is not a problem, and that fighting is what it is, and can't be fixed (I doubt that agreement can be reached on this). But, IMO, consensus must be arrived at whether or not fighting does have "sweet-spots" at all prior to tackling whether or not it's a problem.

 

 

-Just my 2c.

 

-Delia

 

 

A note on expertise: A lot of the replies I hear from people in other professions question the expertise of those in the profession. The type of a/d leveling that Stroker posted in his pic is indeed a HUGE money sink, and a lot of people are unaware of it. I was just as unaware at how much of a money-sink c1 rings and dis rings were until I talked to a high lvl crafter. Similarly, only after talking to a master-manu'er did I understand how much a money-sink steel chains and steel shields are. I am not saying to unquestionably take their opinions as truth, but to lend credibility to those who have expertise in professions.

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fighterjim wants to PK...as a noobish fighter, i take a tit axe and full plate, (which i earned alching) and began killing trolls...each troll usually dropped between 25-30gc and sometimes a item....it pays for the restore on each battle plus extra...then...the only reason fighterjim loses money is because he doesnt wanna be waiting at a spawn he wants to get big money fast....alchemists dont first start out making EFEs and niether do fighters...but when monsters start to drop 400gc+ each is the equivalent to alcherbob's EFE.

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:P Thank to the summoning I'm not billionaire...

 

True, if one kind of skill trainers can bitch it's the summoners, others should stop whining...

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:brooding: Thank to the summoning I'm not billionaire...

 

True, if one kind of skill trainers can bitch it's the summoners, others should stop whining...

 

definately, summoners dont get anything from going to the arena and training their skill, they might get things if their summon kills something, that is if someone doesnt jump on the bag first

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:) Thank to the summoning I'm not billionaire...

 

True, if one kind of skill trainers can bitch it's the summoners, others should stop whining...

 

:icon4:let me re-clarify the purpose of this thread

 

none of any of this was anyone whining. i was not taking any 'sides' and did not intend on a debate between people of different skill focuses. the truth is (and please correct me if i am wrong) if the fighters made money off of fighting, they would spend that money on the alchemists' essences, the manuers armors, the crafter's rings/meds, the potioner's potions, etc. Since fighting is for the most part a money drain, the fighters are forced to learn other skills such as alchemy and potioning etc to support themselves. while they may choose to only fight and alch, or fight and potion, or whatever, there are many more people who train a/d than any other single skill, and different ones will choose different secondary stats to learn, thus partially taking the market away from the primary alchemists/potioners/etc.

 

this is true, is it not? :inquisitive:

 

EDIT: this does all apply to some others skills like summoning, that however is in the process of being fixed i think with summoning stones? not really sure...

Edited by Ghengas

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And for your information, I train on unarmed male orcs. They are suited to my level - I get decent exp and drops, and don't lose too much equipment or restore lots. I train in steel chain/leathers, so even if I do break stuff, its not too expensive to replace. I made enough in one session selling most of my weapon/armor drops to Trik, as well as the other drops to cover my losses. If you are training on things that are causing you to lose so much equipment, you're obviously fighting something too tough.

 

 

Wait until you start on ogre. Start on them at the right lvls, and they give you a taste of what's to come. They'll break some of your stuff here and there. If you're smart, you'll at least start carrying an extra chain with you to the spawn. But it goes downhill from there. Hit cyclops at the right lvls and they will show you a new meaning for stuff breaking. You got it pretty easy for now. Enjoy it.

 

You do realize that as you go up, there is a problem with the 'get good xp/get good gc' thing, right? The xp I get from ogre now is a joke. I can rake in the gold, but it's not worth my time. Then you have clops. I still train them when I can't get an open fluff spawn, but the xp for them is bad. I can get gc/xp if I stay with them for hours on end, but it's nothing what I can get in just a little while training on what I should be training on. I get very little gc training like I should, which is what I've been saying in every post. Like I said, try reading.

 

I have the alch and pot skills to make anything I need. The problem is I don't like doing that. I can go camp trolls and make good gc (not counting the books that I normally leave in a bag on the way out). But that is boring also. So don't talk to me like I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

And I agree too much gold too easy would make it too simple, but I'd like to at least break even while training on something that actually moves the numbers a little in a reasonable time. I don't like sitting at a spawn for hours to restore 2 times and pat myself on the back.

Edited by sTroker

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I know this post was along time ago (1 page) but I just wanted to clarify something...

 

I dont see why training a/d should be profitable, its training afterall, you pay to get your a/d up. The goal of a/d training is PK which should be profitable. Goals of other manufacturing kind skills are making things and selling them for profit.

 

And "training" alch, manu, crafting lvl arent? you make money when you train those lvls.

Pking shouldnt be the only profit gained from fighting... You have to be at least a good 60+ a/d lvl to be a decent pker... this is the only game I know where you should have a certain lvl to be a good pker, in other games you pk with people around your lvl, becuase there is a block so high a/d lvls cant pk you. So its who is better at or around your lvl, that you get stuff from. As around 40/40 a/d I should be able to go around pking 40/40's but that isnt possible cause there is no limit to people who can pk you. Someone who is 1 Billion a/d lvl could come and waste me. I have absolutly no defence against someone that high.

Pk areas with certain lvls required? should be. (E.g. Pk arena for 20/20,30/30,40/40 and so on and have a limit so higher lvl people cant attack in those areas)

Just my tidbit to ad.

,Knight

 

This is me at my lvl

Exp.jpg

Edited by The_Knight

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And "training" alch, manu, crafting lvl arent? you make money when you train those lvls.

What game are YOU playing? :) Other than harvesting, alch, and combat, training a skill is a money sink. No profits.

 

Edit:

1. This "problem" is not unique to fighters.

2. This game is not designed to make one skill only self-sufficient.

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Since fighting is for the most part a money drain, the fighters are forced to learn other skills such as alchemy and potioning etc to support themselves. while they may choose to only fight and alch, or fight and potion, or whatever, there are many more people who train a/d than any other single skill, and different ones will choose different secondary stats to learn, thus partially taking the market away from the primary alchemists/potioners/etc.

 

this is true, is it not? :blush:

 

EDIT: this does all apply to some others skills like summoning, that however is in the process of being fixed i think with summoning stones? not really sure...

 

There was only a top player (I mean OA +100), Shasso, with exp only in Att, Def, Magic and Summoning (all the other skills at lvl 0, yes, even his harvesting was at 0). For you isn't a money question, but only exp. If you want to be a good fighter you'll need many PP (yes, you'll have even some perk) and these PP will come from other skills (maybe together some money or some saved money).

Don't worry about primary alchemists/potioners/etc... they'll survive playing other skills.

 

Summoning stones: I don't need to sell any stone when the stones will be in game.

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none of any of this was anyone whining. i was not taking any 'sides' and did not intend on a debate between people of different skill focuses. the truth is (and please correct me if i am wrong) if the fighters made money off of fighting, they would spend that money on the alchemists' essences, the manuers armors, the crafter's rings/meds, the potioner's potions, etc. Since fighting is for the most part a money drain, the fighters are forced to learn other skills such as alchemy and potioning etc to support themselves. while they may choose to only fight and alch, or fight and potion, or whatever, there are many more people who train a/d than any other single skill, and different ones will choose different secondary stats to learn, thus partially taking the market away from the primary alchemists/potioners/etc.

 

this is true, is it not? :dry:

 

EDIT: this does all apply to some others skills like summoning, that however is in the process of being fixed i think with summoning stones? not really sure...

 

Well we are trying to clarify you that there is nothing wrong with the current system for fighters. You should be able to make enough money to 100% fight! If the drops were even bigger the money would flood the market and will be worthless.

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fighterjim also has a pretty high EMU, so he can mule too, harvest coal/sulfur (even if he is antisocial he can sell it to other players).

Edited by Dejan

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