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So, what do we think about the new changes?

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Here's an easy one: Bring a bunch of essences to Mira. Sit at her feet looking up at her. Buy mana potions, cast magic spells, consume mana potions. Cooldown? Ok, so read the forums or chat with your friends at the same time. And please don't tell me that you are so effecient that you don't ever lose in game time to forums or chatting. This method allows you to train magic and get vials at the same time. And it's been around EL since I started (2.5 years ago).

This doesn't show much experience in training magic this way. Have you done it at all? Chatting with friends becomes very hard, with the "spell failed" spam.

Aside from that, look at what she said - there's 35k vials leaving each day. You can look at it the micro way, and assume a few trips to Harvy is easy, but in reality, it requires the population to generate 175k quartz a day, *just* for vials. That's aside from the bq/rq needed for the srs/brs.

 

A/D training will stop? Why? Who has large EMU? Oh wait, that would be the p/c pumped up fighters. Quartz mining isn't that difficult. They could harv quartz with ease and move it from DP to Harvy (what are we talking? 20 whole steps?) faster than the average potion specialist.

100 steps, since it's 5 quartz for 1 vial. There's the main issue.

 

Cost of SRs/BRs 1 year ago: 15-20gc (with / without vial).

Cost of SRs/BRs 2 weeks ago: 9gc! (A lot people weren't even advertising the need for vials due to the over supply)

 

So OMFG! Prices may go up?!

 

No, margin stays the same for the potioners, only the price for buyers goes up, with the increase cost of vials. The fact that prices for SRS went down over the last year or so, is simply because there's an oversupply of them. Too many people making them, because it is the only useful product to level potioning on and because it saves restocks when bringing ingreds to training.

 

The trend of the last updates are of the same problem. There are no items available for 70+ skill levels, to get a level in a decent ammount of time. Sure - you get 1.5k base exp for wolfram bars, but are limited by rares. 490 alc exp for manufacturable Enriched essences - again, limited by rares. Crafting high level items, limited by extremely high food cost, but this is somewhat compensated by the fact that they're stackable and have a sellback npc.

 

Seriously, everytime such a change occurs, people freak out. And I do mean freak out. They take it as personal affronts, damn Entropy and threaten to quit the game.

Some have already quit, but there's been a lot of bitching in this thread, that needed some solid forum moderation. In between that though, good suggestions have been given.

 

If they were to take all that energy and pretend as if the game had always been that way and now look for ways to get around it... they'd soon realize that these changes (though they SEEM earth shattering) are really fairly minor. They only seem earth shattering because they effect so many.

Not really. It is earth shattering to most, because people understand the implications. For 1k vials, somebody now needs to mine 5k quartz and no matter what your harvesting level is, it will take a few hours. Hours that aren't spent on training attack levels, so that the new monsters added to the game, become trainable for our high level fighters and the new capes and books might drop.

 

Secondly, a 'problem' has been fixed, by not looking at the cause. As I stated earlier, the oversupply of vials is solely the result of feasting potions. If one was to take the vial from feasting potions, the oversupply would remain a bit longer in game, but it would steady out quickly and then a run to harvy to replace a few lost vials skilling up potions, isn't such a bad idea. But requesting an average number of 400 or so online players, to generate 175k quartz a day, seems kinda bad. I would love to see the pre and post update stats on harvested quartz (subtracted of course by the quartz used in making Death Essences), to see if this is at all managable. Maybe it isn't as bad as I think. Allthough, the Harvy bit is the most time consuming of the process. A formula of 5q + 1 earth essence (hmm, something not used in game yet.....), but manufacturable might just work, if there's enough quartz generated.

So, my proposition for the manuable vial would be:

5 quartz

1 earth essence

Experience given: crafting 5

Recommended level: 0 (no fail)

Food consumed: 1

 

Note that this would still drive up the price of a vial, since the base cost of an earth essence is 3.33, but this formula assumes, that vials are returned on potions, except for feasting pots. If this isn't done, I'd propose 1 or 2 quartz + 1 earth essence.

Edited by RallosZek

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Here is my proposition on manufacturable vials ingregients (with the assumption that no potion returns vial):

 

Regular vial (used up to Potion of Manufacturing):

 

Ingredients: 2 x quartz, 1 FE

Skill: Manufacturing

Knowledge Required: No

Level: 10

Food: 2

XP: ??

Final price: around 7gc

 

 

Hardened vial (for high level potions):

 

Ingredients: 2x quartz, 1 Earth Essence, 1 FE

Skill: Manufacturing

Knowledge Required: Book of Hardened Vial (semi-rare drop)

Level: 25

Food: 5

XP: ??

Final price: around 13 gc

 

 

Why having Hardened Vials?:

 

Advantages:

- two items for manufacturers to profit from instead of one

- use for earth essence (alchemists profit)

 

Disadvantages:

- an increase of 5gc in price of top level potions

 

 

From what I saw in the client, this would be a purelly server-side change as both types can use same icon in the client.

 

PS.

 

Please keep in mind that using same items value, current Harvey vial is around 10 gc (5 x quartz + 3gc)

 

EDIT: added knowledge requirement

Edited by Kindar Naar

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5 quartz

1 earth essence

Experience given: crafting 5

Recommended level: 0 (no fail)

Food consumed: 1

 

Note that this would still drive up the price of a vial, since the base cost of an earth essence is 3.33, but this formula assumes, that vials are returned on potions, except for feasting pots. If this isn't done, I'd propose 1 or 2 quartz + 1 earth essence.

 

Having vials take 5quartz each but then getting a vial back from virtually most potions wont work...you would still get a drop in vial prices because you get them back from SR's and no1 would even bother to manu them.

 

I think that maybe 3quartz per vial? with an earth essence or 2 is a reasonable request for a vial.

If quartz was bought it would be 3*2=6+earth ess=8-9gc which is about the same as it is now and if the potioner takes the time to mine the quartz, then its more profit to them.

Either way, the potioner gets a decent price for their product and the fighters pay the same price (from mined quartz or bought) which would stop the price of potions(mainly SRs and BRs) from dropping.

 

Just my 2cents.

 

Note: this is only an idea if vials are to become manufacturable and that either way, the update still rocks! :)

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Here is my proposition on manufacturable vials ingregients (with the assumption that no potion returns vial):

 

Regular vial (used up to Potion of Manufacturing):

 

Ingredients: 2 x quartz, 1 FE

Skill: Manufacturing

 

1) This is hardly manufacturing related and crafting could use a no failer - it is after all, much more delicate manufacturing process, then smacking a hammer :)

2) FE's are already used all over the place and requiring even more would make this very hard

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1) This is hardly manufacturing related and crafting could use a no failer - it is after all, much more delicate manufacturing process, then smacking a hammer :)

2) FE's are already used all over the place and requiring even more would make this very hard

 

AD1: Yes, making glass is delicate process, but Crafting for me has more to do with embeding magic into objects that making simple objects. Besides, you don't smack with hammer when making gloves or other leather items. :icon13:

 

AD2: I agree... but to make glass, you need high temperature. That's why I put FE here and used earth essence for additional 'endurance' in hardened vials.

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Its about time we gave earth essences a use.

 

Here is my proposition on manufacturable vials ingregients (with the assumption that no potion returns vial):

 

Regular vial (used up to Potion of Manufacturing):

 

Ingredients: 2 x quartz, 1 FE

Skill: Manufacturing

 

1) This is hardly manufacturing related and crafting could use a no failer - it is after all, much more delicate manufacturing process, then smacking a hammer :icon13:

2) FE's are already used all over the place and requiring even more would make this very hard

 

I agree, but ... fire essence simply make more sense, after all you need to kind of smelt the quartz :)

Maybe make that 1 quartz, 1 earth essence and 1 fire essence, need for earth essence could be explained with need to "focus" heat or to "force" the vial into shape...

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So basicly now.... since people complain about the mana restores.... people who accualy want to conserve on their money and buy something worth while now have to spend it all on SR's.... :)

 

I'll buy a new cape though :icon13:

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5 quartz

1 earth essence

Experience given: crafting 5

Recommended level: 0 (no fail)

Food consumed: 1

 

Note that this would still drive up the price of a vial, since the base cost of an earth essence is 3.33, but this formula assumes, that vials are returned on potions, except for feasting pots. If this isn't done, I'd propose 1 or 2 quartz + 1 earth essence.

 

Having vials take 5quartz each but then getting a vial back from virtually most potions wont work...you would still get a drop in vial prices because you get them back from SR's and no1 would even bother to manu them.

 

For the free crafting exp? sure they would. It's a great way to start crafting and potions at the same time for a new player and for a potionist who just lost 100 vials making a batch of potions, he can opt to get some exp for them or just run the quartz to harvy. Having choices ain't a bad thing.

 

I think that maybe 3quartz per vial? with an earth essence or 2 is a reasonable request for a vial.

If quartz was bought it would be 3*2=6+earth ess=8-9gc which is about the same as it is now and if the potioner takes the time to mine the quartz, then its more profit to them.

But why make profit on a utility like a vial? A potionist shouldn't have to make profit on the packaging or even worry about it - his skill is the contents.

The problem with the increased vial price is that the end-user of the vial, cannot generate enough money to pay for it AND all his/her other costs, which will effectively put pressure on the *contents* of the vial, not the vial itself. In fact, I will have to calc the new feasting price into the equation, but I'll look into selling srs for 5+vial. I think I won't loose money on it and it still ammounts to 12/13gc per sr, which is decent for their usage.

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Ingredients: 2 x quartz, 1 FE

Skill: Manufacturing

Knowledge Required: No

Level: 10

Food: 2

XP: ??

Final price: around 7gc

 

 

Hardened vial (for high level potions):

 

Ingredients: 2x quartz, 1 Earth Essence, 1 FE

Skill: Manufacturing

Knowledge Required: Book of Hardened Vial (semi-rare drop)

Level: 25

Food: 5

XP: ??

Final price: around 13 gc

 

 

as long as Srs aren't hardened vials it would be OK, but if they are this wouldn't have any use since the vials will probably cost 12gc~ :)

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24 second SR cooldown is already the thing that limits magic training. Now you're proposing to train magic with 40 second SR cooldown. Fine, even if this works. What's the cost of a vial? 10gc + trouble to extend magic cooldown from 24 to 40 seconds, and then haul the vials back to storage. 11gc minimum, if not more.

Besides, didn't Ent say he did NOT want this to be the source of vials? He wanted Harvy to be the source?

 

One more time, try playing more than 1-2 months. I never said train on SRs now did I? Hmm... what does that leave?

 

60 vials over 20 minutes of work? for a 620 emu fighter? Well, gee, that means he can get 180 vials an hour. By running flowers, he could get 5000gc per hour. Which one is more boring? I'd say they're about the same. That means for this to be effective, the vials would have to be more than 27 gc each.

 

One day you will slow down and listen, for now - buy mana pots (3 words, 4 letters or less each - should be simple enough even for you to figure out).

 

Why in the world do you think potion makers actually make more marginal profit than they did last week?

The cost of selling an SR is now 20gc. The cost of making an SR is now 17gc. They're the exact same as they were before the update: Prior to the update SR's cost 10-12gc + vial. After the update, SR's cost 10-12 gc + vial. Each SR requires a vial to make, and that cost is directly transferred to the buyer. There is NO DIFFERENCE IN MARGINAL PROFIT to the potioners from last week. Potioners do not make any more money from this change.

 

The only profit that potioners make is from their stockpiled vials. Potioners with 10k stockpiles actually have 100kgc in value in them now. whereas before it was only 30kgc. Potioners with 50k stockpiles now have 500k gc in vials, if they wait till the vial supply runs low enough for vial price to go up.

Let's see... what are the ingredients to SRs again? Yeah... harvestable things. REALLY Friggin' simple harvestable things. Oh wait, they have to pay 3gc base cost per vial. Oh hell no! 3gc?! Better raise the price to 50gc per SRs!!!!~1!

 

Cordelia and those in her guild trying to support her:

Play for a while. A while doesn't mean 8 weeks. A while means MONTHS.

As Shallara has pointed out there have been worse incidents and we continue to level faster and faster and faster.

As 0ctane pointed out, people are already figuring out ways to beat the system.

So while you sit here and cry because you think the Ent-man is unfair, others are continuing to level and play and make money.

This isn't just me talking... read the other threads... other people are doing it. You could be too, but you're going to have to learn how to play the game more. That doesn't mean reading a book and mixing a pot. It means learning how to do things efficiently and how to work with others and how continue to level with the system.

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as long as Srs aren't hardened vials it would be OK, but if they are this wouldn't have any use since the vials will probably cost 12gc~ :)

 

No, SRs and BRs would use regular vials. Manu, summon, crafting, magic and new potions would use hardened.

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so far we've lived through the biggest system crash, cooldown, non-stackable feastings etc etc

 

i think we can handle a few changes, IF we support eachother and don't all go after the big money

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24 second SR cooldown is already the thing that limits magic training. Now you're proposing to train magic with 40 second SR cooldown. Fine, even if this works. What's the cost of a vial? 10gc + trouble to extend magic cooldown from 24 to 40 seconds, and then haul the vials back to storage. 11gc minimum, if not more.

Besides, didn't Ent say he did NOT want this to be the source of vials? He wanted Harvy to be the source?

 

One more time, try playing more than 1-2 months. I never said train on SRs now did I? Hmm... what does that leave?

 

And what does any of this have to do with my argument above? Do you dispute that the process you describe above results in at least a 11gc vial cost? If so, please explain why.

 

 

60 vials over 20 minutes of work? for a 620 emu fighter? Well, gee, that means he can get 180 vials an hour. By running flowers, he could get 5000gc per hour. Which one is more boring? I'd say they're about the same. That means for this to be effective, the vials would have to be more than 27 gc each.

 

One day you will slow down and listen, for now - buy mana pots (3 words, 4 letters or less each - should be simple enough even for you to figure out).

 

Gee... Nice reply. You make such cogent, logical arguments. Rather than adopting an air of condescension, how about try to actually understand the simple math I executed above, and explain what's wrong with it?

 

Why in the world do you think potion makers actually make more marginal profit than they did last week?

The cost of selling an SR is now 20gc. The cost of making an SR is now 17gc. They're the exact same as they were before the update: Prior to the update SR's cost 10-12gc + vial. After the update, SR's cost 10-12 gc + vial. Each SR requires a vial to make, and that cost is directly transferred to the buyer. There is NO DIFFERENCE IN MARGINAL PROFIT to the potioners from last week. Potioners do not make any more money from this change.

 

The only profit that potioners make is from their stockpiled vials. Potioners with 10k stockpiles actually have 100kgc in value in them now. whereas before it was only 30kgc. Potioners with 50k stockpiles now have 500k gc in vials, if they wait till the vial supply runs low enough for vial price to go up.

Let's see... what are the ingredients to SRs again? Yeah... harvestable things. REALLY Friggin' simple harvestable things. Oh wait, they have to pay 3gc base cost per vial. Oh hell no! 3gc?! Better raise the price to 50gc per SRs!!!!~1!

 

If you don't understand MARGINAL PROFIT, let me explain it to you. It is the difference between the Sale price of an item, and the cost required to make the item.

 

The Base Ingredients to an SR did not change from pre-update to post-update. The only thing that's changed is the cost of the vial. For Every SR that sells, a potioner gains a vial(or gc) and loses a vial.

 

Please explain to me in something even coherently resembling an argument how a potioner can make more money if the marginal profit off each SR is the same.

 

Cordelia and those in her guild trying to support her:

Play for a while. A while doesn't mean 8 weeks. A while means MONTHS.

Folks, this is know as an Appeal to Authority.

As Wiki says, the appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. That means it's a worthless argument.

 

As Shallara has pointed out there have been worse incidents and we continue to level faster and faster and faster.

As 0ctane pointed out, people are already figuring out ways to beat the system.

So while you sit here and cry because you think the Ent-man is unfair, others are continuing to level and play and make money.

This isn't just me talking... read the other threads... other people are doing it. You could be too, but you're going to have to learn how to play the game more. That doesn't mean reading a book and mixing a pot. It means learning how to do things efficiently and how to work with others and how continue to level with the system.

None of this has anything to do with the actual substance of my post. It's all just wishy-washy pointless condescension.

 

Ghrae, if you're going to TRY AND REPLY to an argument, how about READING THE ARGUMENT, and actually RESPONDING TO THE POINTS IN THE ARGUMENT?

 

Yours,

 

Delia

Edited by cordelia

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so far we've lived through the biggest system crash, cooldown, non-stackable feastings etc etc

 

i think we can handle a few changes, IF we support eachother and don't all go after the big money

:) If we don't go after the big money then what is the use of the new armor and wepons.....?

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so far we've lived through the biggest system crash, cooldown, non-stackable feastings etc etc

 

i think we can handle a few changes, IF we support eachother and don't all go after the big money

:devlish: If we don't go after the big money then what is the use of the new armor and wepons.....?

 

It's either big money, or small money + experience, fair trade to me...

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Simple math:

How much does mana and healing pots cost at Mira? 8gc I believe (after last server update)

 

How much does vial cost from Harvy (2-3gc + some quartz). Either way I have a cost 8gc or less.

 

You can harvest the rest.

Do you factor this into your cost? No.

Why? Because watch market for a couple of weeks. If people calculated the cost of all ingredients to make an item they would have to sell for MUCH higher to make a profit. Instead they understand that they either have to sell for less or harvest the ingredients themselves (no cost to them other than time).

 

And they make a profit.

 

Simple math II:

Harvest flowers, blue quartz. Wine = 2gc. Vial 8gc.

Total GOLD cost: 10gc (max mind you since there are cheaper methods via wine quest and harvy). Sell for 15-20gc = PROFIT. And everyone is happy.

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new weapons/armors are for high a/d players and not people showing off at storage

 

EDIT: Ghrae/Cordelia please stop constantly flaming eachother's posts, try to find a usefull solution here, like the ingredients for a vial :devlish:

Edited by maximos

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Wow, you actually responded to substance, rather than providing non-sequitors and logical fallacies. Good for you.

 

Simple math:

How much does mana and healing pots cost at Mira? 8gc I believe (after last server update)

Thanks for the information. I didn't know yesterday's update changed it to 8gc. Then I believe minimal cost is 9gc. How much do FP's cost on market? Why do they cost more than they cost from Mira? The same reason there will be a price increase on vials from the 8gc base cost at Mira.

 

Honestly, I don't know if it'll be 8.5 or 9 or 11gc for vials obtained through Mira. There is a cost associated with sitting at Mira and quaffing mana potions while attempting to practice magic. Just as there's a cost associated with harvesting and muling any material in EL. That cost is reflected in the price that ppl ask for those goods and services. Such as the premium ppl are willing to pay for not having or being unable to mule FP's.

 

And remember, the method for acquiring vials you're advocating strongly for here, is the opposite of what Ent intended with this update.

 

How much does vial cost from Harvy (2-3gc + some quartz). Either way I have a cost 8gc or less.

 

You can harvest the rest.

Do you factor this into your cost? No.

Why? Because watch market for a couple of weeks. If people calculated the cost of all ingredients to make an item they would have to sell for MUCH higher to make a profit. Instead they understand that they either have to sell for less or harvest the ingredients themselves (no cost to them other than time).

Time is money. If time wasn't money, all EL players would be rich by harvesting blue lupine 24x7. There's a cost assigned to how tedious certain things are, and spending an hour in order to obtain 180 vials from Harvy by harvesting plain quartz, then muling it to Harvy is tedious.

 

And they make a profit.

 

Simple math II:

Harvest flowers, blue quartz. Wine = 2gc. Vial 8gc.

Total GOLD cost: 10gc (max mind you since there are cheaper methods via wine quest and harvy). Sell for 15-20gc = PROFIT. And everyone is happy.

 

Gee, you conveniently ignore ing loss, ignore FP's, and ignore the value that you could sell that bq or flowers for on market. How about addressing these in your formulas and trying again?

 

Also, you also conveniently ignore the whole point about the marginal cost not changing. Is it so hard to understand that prior to the update SR's sell for 10-12gc + vial on market, and after the update, SR's seel for 10-12gc + vial on market? It makes no difference whether the vial is 3gc or 7gc. One vial goes into an SR, one vial gets sold out. The profit that a potioner makes from SR's has not changed one gc from the change in vial cost due to the update.

 

(In fact, the profit margin has decreased since FP's are now more, at least until the economy scales to handle the increase in FP cost, but that's a tangential discussion for another time)

 

 

Since it seemed like one of Ghrae's original arguments have somehow been selectively snipped or lost in non-sequitor noise, I thought it might be worth coming back to it.

 

A/D training will stop? Why? Who has large EMU? Oh wait, that would be the p/c pumped up fighters. Quartz mining isn't that difficult. They could harv quartz with ease and move it from DP to Harvy (what are we talking? 20 whole steps?) faster than the average potion specialist.

 

You have yet to address how this is economical. 620 EMU ==> 180 vials/hr. Why would anyone do this if vials only cost 8gc to buy on market? That means I just spent one hour getting 1400 gc by harving and muling actively. This is not afk work, this is clicking and selling and muling constantly. Are there any fighters out there who would like to spend their time like this?

Edited by cordelia

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:devlish:

 

 

anyways; there are too many FEs in this game, as well as bones

ingredients for a Vial:

1 FE

4 Bones

 

I know it's not logical, but since we're trying to get away the overproduced items :ph34r:

Edited by maximos

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Simple math II:

Harvest flowers, blue quartz. Wine = 2gc. Vial 8gc.

Total GOLD cost: 10gc (max mind you since there are cheaper methods via wine quest and harvy). Sell for 15-20gc = PROFIT. And everyone is happy.

 

Sell or try to? I know I'll sell for 12 (5+vial), not sure people that use k's of them a week, will buy at 19(12+vial).

Either way, after the vial surplus is gone, let's reevaluate, since this isn't about gc or profit, it's about being able to generate the ammount of vials needed and whether people are willing to spend the time to use Harvy for vials.

 

Flaming and guild attacks retained for lack of constructive critism.

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