So, what do we think about the new changes?

[maximos]

Bones? Err.. I still preffer quartz. Reason? Quartz is unlimited. Bones are limited. Using bones would sky-rocket vials / bones prices in my opinion.

Yeah I know it wasn't logical, maybe i'm not that good at making up formulas

[Ghrae]

Gee, you conveniently ignore ing loss, ignore FP's, and ignore the value that you could sell that bq or flowers for on market. How about addressing these in your formulas and trying again?

 

No I haven't. This is where you and your guild need to play for a while. *sigh*

 

Tell me all knowing one... what was the cost of SRs before cool down? Hmm? Oh wait, you weren't around. I'll help 15-20.

 

What was the cost after cooldown (when Feast Pots were used)? Hmm? Again, let me help. 15-20.

 

*gasp* I hear from you? Yes, feasting pots were considered a cost of doing business.

 

Alchers claim that this was unacceptable. What did they do? They added 1-2gc per HE. I can hear a small sound of triump in your voice, but even alchers did not hit the mark. See this example:

 

Iron Bar before cooldown: 35gc

Iron Bar after cooldown: 35gc (and food loss is greater than HE).

Iron Bar about 3 weeks ago: 30-35gc. Yes average price came DOWN even with feast pots.

 

Poor Coordelia and her guild... you will learn that even though we may not like it, just like in real life there are some costs to doing business. Unlike real life those costs sometimes mean no profit. And thus we have to get creative.

 

Oh and btw, please stop quoting a single fighter's numbers. You have done no such work yourself in figuring those numbers. His experience has no meaning since his experience gave no details (where he was getting quartz from, factors that gave that time result, etc).

 

Someone pointed out MrMind. I believe once MrMind said something about using group projects to bring down costs. Hmmm... another hint Cordelia... another solution to bring your costs down.

 

You can argue me all day long, but I've used simple math, quoted others, given numerous examples on how to keep costs down and shown that despite factors you wish to include in your numbers, others do not. Unless you want to be the only one selling SRs at 27gc each, I suggest taking my statements... statements of others... and coming up with a method to be able to compete on market.

 

Otherwise, perhaps being a potionist isn't for you.

 

Thank god this isn't a discussion of crafting - boy would you be amazed at the loss of profits one endures due to purchasing ingredients

Edited July 15, 2006 by Ghrae

[cordelia]

It looks like you regressed in your debate style.

 

Rather than looking at the points layed out, you divert the entire argument into strawmen, non-sequitors, and pointless jabs.

 

 

No I haven't. This is where you and your guild need to play for a while. *sigh*

pointless jab.

 

Tell me all knowing one... what was the cost of SRs before cool down? Hmm? Oh wait, you weren't around. I'll help 15-20.

 

What was the cost after cooldown (when Feast Pots were used)? Hmm? Again, let me help. 15-20.

 

*gasp* I hear from you? Yes, feasting pots were considered a cost of doing business.

 

Alchers claim that this was unacceptable. What did they do? They added 1-2gc per HE. I can hear a small sound of triump in your voice, but even alchers did not hit the mark. See this example:

 

Iron Bar before cooldown: 35gc

Iron Bar after cooldown: 35gc (and food loss is greater than HE).

Iron Bar about 3 weeks ago: 30-35gc. Yes average price came DOWN even with feast pots.

 

And none of this has anything to do with any of my arguments. Thank you for the pointless diversion.

 

Poor Coordelia and her guild... you will learn that even though we may not like it, just like in real life there are some costs to doing business. Unlike real life those costs sometimes mean no profit. And thus we have to get creative.

 

Another pointless jab. And honestly, will you please try and stick to the arguments rather than talking about a guild?

 

Oh and btw, please stop quoting a single fighter's numbers. You have done no such work yourself in figuring those numbers. His experience has no meaning since his experience gave no details (where he was getting quartz from, factors that gave that time result, etc).

 

Gee, I see. When numbers don't agree, that means they're meaningless. How about trying to provide your own numbers, Ghrae? If you think they're meaningless, disprove them.

 

Someone pointed out MrMind. I believe once MrMind said something about using group projects to bring down costs. Hmmm... another hint Cordelia... another solution to bring your costs down.

Yes, and I expect that's how market bases it's prices. On group projects.

 

You can argue me all day long, but I've used simple math, quoted others, given numerous examples on how to keep costs down and shown that despite factors you wish to include in your numbers, others do not. Unless you want to be the only one selling SRs at 27gc each, I suggest taking my statements... statements of others... and coming up with a method to be able to compete on market.

 

Oh, you referred to a number of mine. 27gc/vial. And you used it out-of-context. What a great way to prove your point.

 

Otherwise, perhaps being a potionist isn't for you.

This isn't even a discussion about being a potionist. Thank you for another non-sequitor.

 

Thank god this isn't a discussion of crafting - boy would you be amazed at the loss of profits one endures due to purchasing ingredients

Oh, another appeal to authority mixed in with a non-sequitor. Brilliant way to obfuscate the debate.

[Terena]

Group projects are definitely a good point. One of my guildies is a straight fighter with a very high emu, and in return for helping me making the bars, by muling ingreds and such, he gets half price armor for me. This could quite easily be applied to vials, get a bunch of friends or guildies to help out gathering and muling the quartz, and give them reduced potions prices for their time.

 

I really don't see what all the fuss is about, since a lot of the people arguing probably still have at least several k vials in their store. None of these arguments are really an issue until those are used up and people actually HAVE to get vials from Harvey. Wait and see what happens, then make your judgements.

[maximos]

Group projects are definitely a good point. One of my guildies is a straight fighter with a very high emu, and in return for helping me making the bars, by muling ingreds and such, he gets half price armor for me. This could quite easily be applied to vials, get a bunch of friends or guildies to help out gathering and muling the quartz, and give them reduced potions prices for their time.

 

I really don't see what all the fuss is about, since a lot of the people arguing probably still have at least several k vials in their store. None of these arguments are really an issue until those are used up and people actually HAVE to get vials from Harvey. Wait and see what happens, then make your judgements.

exactly, if we all work together it'll work out

[cordelia]

Since Ghrae seems unable to actually address the points. Let me reiterate, once again. I know some of you are bored by this, but at least one of you seems to be unable to understand.

 

Ghrae's first statement: The update has increased potioner profits.

 

My retort: The marginal cost of making an SR is unchanged.

 

Ghrae's response: ... [none yet]...

 

 

Ghrae's second statement: vials from Harvy cost 8gc or less.

 

My retort: That means you make 180 vials/hr, or 1400 gc/hr.

 

Ghrae's respnose: those numbers are meaningless ... eventhough I have no better numbers. I just know they have to be meaningless.

 

 

Ghrae's third statement: vials from Mira will cost 8gc.

 

My retort: there's at least a marginal cost of 1gc added to that due to trouble. Look at the cost of FP's on market, or the cost of anytype of muling behavior.

 

Ghrae's response: you need to play for awhile to understand

[Again, this is an appeal to authority, and a logical fallacy. Basically a worthless argument]

===================

 

My original point: vials will cost 12-14gc on market. I made this statement assuming that Mira still sold at 10gc. If she sells at 8gc, I think the cost will be 10-12gc. If you _really push_ it, costs may go down to 9gc per vial, to account for simple muling and time spent.

 

Honestly, I don't think this is valid. The game currently consumes 30,000 vials a day. If they all come from Mira, that's 300,000 seconds of cooldown, or 12,500 hours of cooldown. Considering there's 24 hours in a day, that means that each hour, an average of 520 people will be sitting in front of mira quaffing mana potions and practicing magic.

 

Hell, let's say Harvy takes out half the demand. So 260 ppl are sitting in front of Mira. Hell, let's even say that people stop train less and use only 50% of the vials they used before. That means 130 people sitting in front of Mira on average at any point in time.

 

Brilliant solution, really.

Edited July 15, 2006 by cordelia

[Ghrae]

pointless jab.

 

Irony in it's purest form.

 

Your original complaint is against Entropy's fix to the abundance of vials in the game.

- No one can argue that there were an abundance of vials.

- No one argues against over supply (making 1000s of a thing to level).

- No one argues that this causes deflation.

 

- Entropy's proposed solution (popular or otherwise) does eliminate the abundance of vials (not immediately but in the near future).

- Entropy's solution will slow down the over creation of potions to level

- - By introducing more vials of higher levels / more xp he does offer an alternative for greater xp

- Less potions on the market (SRs, BRs) will increase cost of said potion (i.e. supply and demand).

 

So what exactly are you arguing?

Yes it is more work. But the rewards are greater. I mean won't it mean more to you to hit a potion level despite the barriers? That you were able to overcome them and STILL level? Because I don't see a lot of pride in sitting down and making leather helms or SRs (neither currently having much challange to make).

 

So let's start anew. If the above is not what your arguement is about, then what exactly is the problem you are trying to present?

[cordelia]

So let's start anew. If the above is not what your arguement is about, then what exactly is the problem you are trying to present?

 

OK, let's try this again from a fresh slate.

(1) My point is this, neither Harvy nor Mira are viable solutions to the vial market.

 

(2) After the vial supply is depleted, the inevitable rise in vial cost caused by (1), will cause a/d training of most high level fighters to be drastically reduced.

 

(3) Potioners do not make more profit from the loss of vials, so justifying this update as a method to increase potioner profits is incorrect.

 

 

In support of point (1) above, I break it down into (a) Harvy, and ( Mira.

 

(a) This is simple. At 620 EMU, a person can create 180 vials/hr. At 8gc/vial, this is idiotic. Thus vial prices have to rise. You can change it to 250 vials/hr, or 100 vials/hr, the argument is the same. If you think the numbers are wrong, tell me why. I haven't performed this myself, as I only have 460 emu.

 

( Mira, there is a marginal cost associated with performing any type of mule duty reflected in market price. This cost is at least 1gc. Furthermore, there is no possible way for Mira to keep up with current vial consumption due to the 10 second cooldown required to produce each vial. As shown, if Mira only produced 7500 vials each day, rather than the 30,000 needed, over 100 people would be sitting in front of Mira on average at any point in time throughout the day.

 

Thus, as you can see, neither is a viable option to be able to produce 30,000 vials a day.

 

 

In support of point (2) above, If the average vial cost is eg. 10gc. That means that cost for fighters to use SR's increased by 10gc. Most high level fighters I know produce their own SR's or have someone else produce them for ingredients. Non vial ingredient cost, as you showed average 2-4 gc. Add a 10gc cost of a vial, and you have just increased fighter SR usage cost by 150-500%. This is why a/d training will be drastically reduced. The market may well adjust, and people will just move to greater pvp. That isn't an intended result, I'm sure, to have people train on monsters even less, and pvp even more.

 

 

In support of point (3) above, I cited the fact that marginal profits for potioners has not changed. Your prior post actually presents a very good point which I have not heard before. If fewer potioners use SR's to level, that reduces supply, and increases profits via supply and demand. If the new potions are indeed viable outlets for xp, then I think it's a valid argument. In this case, I do agree, potioner profits may indeed increase. However this increase has nothing to do with the vials, but rather everything to do with the availablility of newer potions for production.

[RallosZek]

Yes it is more work. But the rewards are greater. I mean won't it mean more to you to hit a potion level despite the barriers? That you were able to overcome them and STILL level?

 

To me this sounds like giving someone more work for the same pay. I never felt more rewarded over my paycheck when that happened though.

 

Because I don't see a lot of pride in sitting down and making leather helms or SRs (neither currently having much challange to make).

Indeed, I'd love to have 50+ recommended potions or alchemy products that aren't based on rares and have decent sellback value, like crafting currently has. That is a nice reward for the previous levels.

 

Thank you for toning down the flaming, after seeing my post about it.

[Terena]

I have 420emu (and harvesting 64) and I did perform this experiment. In approximately an hour, I mined 2k quartz in Nordcarn, then transferred this from store to harvey in ten short trips. So I made 400 vials per hour. Imagine how many more I could have made if I had even just one person helping me?

 

Now Cordelia, your arguments are based on the premise that every potioner buys all their ingredients. So if an ingredient cost rises, and the end-product cost rises, they do not make any additional profit.

 

However, in potioning and many other skills (the worst being manufacturing) its simply not possible to make a decent profit buying all your ingredients. You have to gather some of these items yourself, and translate these costs into time rather than gold. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be the point Ghrae is making. As a potioner myself, I gather all my ingredients, so my only costs are wine. If the price of SRs raises I do make more of a profit, simply because I have chosen to invest my time rather than gold into making the potions.

 

It comes back to the point, that you can either have great exp and little or no profit, or you can have poor exp and lots of profit.

[Ghrae]

I will ignore the 620 emu section since again I do not know how those calculations were done. Different harvest points and methods COULD produce different results. Until these calculations can be reproduced using them is speculation that I can not agree or disagree with.

 

A - Potion cost before update:

A1 - Vial = 4gc (from other players / market); Wine = 1.75gc (Wine Quest)

Total = about 6gc

A2 - Vial = 5gc (mana pot from Mira); Wine = 2gc (Tavern)

Total = 7gc

 

Thus unharvestable cost: 6-7gc.

Price on market of SR? 9-12gc.

Profit: 3-6gc per

 

B - Potion cost after update

B1 - Vial 3gc (from Harvy); Wine = 1.7gc (Wine Quest)

Total = about 5gc

B2 - Vial 8gc (from Mira); Wine = 2gc (Tavern)

Total = 10gc;

 

Thus unharvestable cost: 5-10gc.

Price on market of SR? not well established. I will argue 15-20gc.

Profit: 10 gc

 

Before: 3-6gc After 10gc

 

You can argue that I didn't include Harvy costs before update and you're right, b/c few people went to Harvy since market was cheaper. Since that is no longer the case, Harvy is a viable option.

 

You can argue that I didn't charge for FP or Mule costs of vials... but since that factor would be evident in both sets, it negates out.

 

Is there a slightly better profit? Yes. Does it require some more work? Yes.

 

Can group projects help? Most definately.

[Ghrae]

Indeed, I'd love to have 50+ recommended potions or alchemy products that aren't based on rares and have decent sellback value, like crafting currently has. That is a nice reward for the previous levels.

 

Sad to say, crafting is for the most part a profit loss skill. About the best way to make profit in crafting is to harvest all the ingredients for bars and make base rings to sell to other crafters.

 

I've yet to find a reliable method to make profit on other rings. In fact, I yearn for sales so that I can help support future ring production, but my inventory continues to grow (far outside my sales rate meaning that I have more value in inventory than I can sell, and thus a loss of profit).

[Blodoks]

 

In support of point (1) above, I break it down into (a) Harvy, and ( Mira.

 

(a) This is simple. At 620 EMU, a person can create 180 vials/hr. At 8gc/vial, this is idiotic. Thus vial prices have to rise. You can change it to 250 vials/hr, or 100 vials/hr, the argument is the same. If you think the numbers are wrong, tell me why. I haven't performed this myself, as I only have 460 emu.

 

Just tried, my EMU 720 but I waer pants

I can make quartz spot-harvy-storage vial-quartz spot in 8'40"

 

I carried 354 quartz = 70 vials.

So, 460-500 vials/hour

 

In 6-7 months of cooldown/feasting potions, I have atm in storage 34.529 empty vials + several thousand of potions ready to drink, but until December 2005 was not a problem for me to harvest quartz and not will be a problem now.

About profit... almost every item is a lost of time/gc. You can start from FE (standard price 3... real 3.25) to swords or armors.

[Gwain]

I will ignore the 620 emu section since again I do not know how those calculations were done. Different harvest points and methods COULD produce different results. Until these calculations can be reproduced using them is speculation that I can not agree or disagree with.

 

A - Potion cost before update:

A1 - Vial = 4gc (from other players / market); Wine = 1.75gc (Wine Quest)

Total = about 6gc

A2 - Vial = 5gc (mana pot from Mira); Wine = 2gc (Tavern)

Total = 7gc

 

Thus unharvestable cost: 6-7gc.

Price on market of SR? 9-12gc.

Profit: 3-6gc per

 

B - Potion cost after update

B1 - Vial 3gc (from Harvy); Wine = 1.7gc (Wine Quest)

Total = about 5gc

B2 - Vial 8gc (from Mira); Wine = 2gc (Tavern)

Total = 10gc;

 

Thus unharvestable cost: 5-10gc.

Price on market of SR? not well established. I will argue 15-20gc.

Profit: 10 gc

 

Before: 3-6gc After 10gc

 

 

 

everything correct, but you have to consider also the time factor in that example.

 

i would say that the profit is more or less the same if the time you spend to buy vials from other players is half the time you spend making vials at harvy.

 

(i just considered A1 and B1)

 

But since i didn't tested anything i will not try to guess an income increase/decrease. i'll let do it to you guys.

[cordelia]

I have 420emu (and harvesting 64) and I did perform this experiment. In approximately an hour, I mined 2k quartz in Nordcarn, then transferred this from store to harvey in ten short trips. So I made 400 vials per hour. Imagine how many more I could have made if I had even just one person helping me?

Hmm... well that's good news. If you consider this about the same tedium as harving and selling blue lup, then you should make around 4k at a blue lup, and that would peg the cost of a vial around 13gc(4000/400 + 3gc to Harvy). Much better than the 27gc originally tested. Thanks for the data.

 

Now Cordelia, your arguments are based on the premise that every potioner buys all their ingredients. So if an ingredient cost rises, and the end-product cost rises, they do not make any additional profit.

You're referring to the third argument i delineate above. It's purely an argument that the marginal cost of a potion has not changed pre- and post-update. That means that potioners do not make more money, and the fact that SR prices are going up from vial cost doesn't help potioners one bit. See my addendum about suppy&demand and the high xp potions making a difference.

 

 

If the price of SRs raises I do make more of a profit, simply because I have chosen to invest my time rather than gold into making the potions.

 

If that rise in cost is soley due to the vial at 10gc, then you have to decide whether or not it's worth it for you as a potioner to spend that hour muling and harvesting to Harvy for those 400 vials. If Ghrae's right and the cost of a vial is 8gc, then you would only make 5gc*400 = 2000gc for that hour spent muling and producing vials. That's why I think 8gc is too low. It should be above 10gc for a vial from Harvy, if not 12-13gc. Remember, that hour spent muling harving quartz and going to and fro to Harvy doesn't generate any xp, and in fact, requires a 1200gc cash investment to Harvy.

[Ghrae]

If that rise in cost is soley due to the vial at 10gc, then you have to decide whether or not it's worth it for you as a potioner to spend that hour muling and harvesting to Harvy for those 400 vials. If Ghrae's right and the cost of a vial is 8gc, then you would only make 5gc*400 = 2000gc for that hour spent muling and producing vials. That's why I think 8gc is too low. It should be above 10gc for a vial from Harvy, if not 12-13gc. Remember, that hour spent muling harving quartz and going to and fro to Harvy doesn't generate any xp, and in fact, requires a 1200gc cash investment to Harvy.

 

Note: This is not to be mean

 

Is your only argument about making profit? If that were so then EVERY skill before AND after update loses money against harvesting flowers. We've known for a long time that flower harvesting is the fastest way to make money. But I don't think the point of Ents thread (the one we're in now) is to debate profit versus harvesting flowers. Thus those arguments, while valid, really aren't the issue at hand.

[cordelia]

I will ignore the 620 emu section since again I do not know how those calculations were done. Different harvest points and methods COULD produce different results. Until these calculations can be reproduced using them is speculation that I can not agree or disagree with.

And it seems we have a better set of numbers coming in that make Harvy a more viable option.

 

 

A - Potion cost before update:

A1 - Vial = 4gc (from other players / market); Wine = 1.75gc (Wine Quest)

Total = about 6gc

A2 - Vial = 5gc (mana pot from Mira); Wine = 2gc (Tavern)

Total = 7gc

 

Thus unharvestable cost: 6-7gc.

Price on market of SR? 9-12gc.

Profit: 3-6gc per

 

B - Potion cost after update

B1 - Vial 3gc (from Harvy); Wine = 1.7gc (Wine Quest)

Total = about 5gc

B2 - Vial 8gc (from Mira); Wine = 2gc (Tavern)

Total = 10gc;

Please address how Mira can produce anything close to 7500 vials a day (25% of current demand). As I showed, that would require over 100 potioners to sit in front of Mira casting spells and quaffing baby mana.

 

Thus unharvestable cost: 5-10gc.

Price on market of SR? not well established. I will argue 15-20gc.

Profit: 10 gc

 

Before: 3-6gc After 10gc

 

You can argue that I didn't include Harvy costs before update and you're right, b/c few people went to Harvy since market was cheaper. Since that is no longer the case, Harvy is a viable option.

So basically you're saying the profit goes from 3-6gc to 10gc because the potioner produces his/her own vials from Harvy. That's an increased profit of 4-7gc.

 

We have numbers coming in saying it's anywhere from 400 vials for 400 emu to 700 vials for 700 emu. So what's a good emu for a potioner(I don't know?) How many vials can he produce per hour? Let's say it's 400 vials per hour. The added profit is 4-7gc*400 = 1600-2800gc per hour. A person with 400 emu can make 4000gc per hour at the blue lups. That means the potioner who runs quartz to Harvy at your stated costs would be much better off running flowers. I doubt either is very exciting, and neither produces much xp. So why bother?

 

Is there a slightly better profit? Yes. Does it require some more work? Yes.

And as I keep saying the work is not worth the profit. Not by a long shot... Vial prices have to rise to 13gc per vial for the work to be worth it.

 

If that rise in cost is soley due to the vial at 10gc, then you have to decide whether or not it's worth it for you as a potioner to spend that hour muling and harvesting to Harvy for those 400 vials. If Ghrae's right and the cost of a vial is 8gc, then you would only make 5gc*400 = 2000gc for that hour spent muling and producing vials. That's why I think 8gc is too low. It should be above 10gc for a vial from Harvy, if not 12-13gc. Remember, that hour spent muling harving quartz and going to and fro to Harvy doesn't generate any xp, and in fact, requires a 1200gc cash investment to Harvy.

 

Note: This is not to be mean

 

Is your only argument about making profit? If that were so then EVERY skill before AND after update loses money against harvesting flowers. We've known for a long time that flower harvesting is the fastest way to make money. But I don't think the point of Ents thread (the one we're in now) is to debate profit versus harvesting flowers. Thus those arguments, while valid, really aren't the issue at hand.

 

No, of course not. There are two reasons people don't harvest flowers all day long.

 

(1) there's no xp in it.

 

(2) it's tedious as all hell.

 

Running quartz to harvy doesn't produce xp, so it's got no advantage over running flowers.

Is running quart as tedious as flowers? I don't know. No one does until they start to do 3-4 hours of it.

If it's less tedious, how much is that tedium worth? At your prices, it only produces half the gold of running flowers. Is that worth it? Well, we'll see, I guess. I don't think it is. I think people will demand more for vials than a measly 5gc per vial profit for muling, harvesting, and running quartz to Harvy.

[maximos]

so? i'll pay 20GC for Srs if I have to to keep training A/D, because I love training and i'll keep doing it untill i quit playing,

and i hope this is the same for most people; they are willing to pay a little more to train, as long as they CAN train

[Ghrae]

This thread is not a "fix the economy" thread. Perhaps you need to start a new thread for that.

 

What are these numbers you are using? The ones dealing with number of vials needed per day?

 

Are you talking about the number of vials before the update that were being generated? If so then I think there is a basic misunderstanding.

 

Being generated (i.e. through feasting pots) doesn't mean they were needed. In fact, if the ever increasing number of vials in most peoples inventory means anything, those vials are NOT needed. And that is the problem that Entropy is trying to solve with the current vial fix.

 

Thus any arguement about vials generated pre update are invalid since they don't truly show vials really needed.

[RallosZek]

Indeed, I'd love to have 50+ recommended potions or alchemy products that aren't based on rares and have decent sellback value, like crafting currently has. That is a nice reward for the previous levels.

 

Sad to say, crafting is for the most part a profit loss skill. About the best way to make profit in crafting is to harvest all the ingredients for bars and make base rings to sell to other crafters.

 

I didn't argue profit. I said, decent sell back value. Granted, crafting has a long track of just investing money into unsellable products to npc (polishing gems). But glacmor ring:

5 en ess @ 7 market = 35

1 silver ring @ 2 silver bars + 3 fes = 79

3 rubies @ 3gc market = 9

2 polished sapphs @ 1 sander + 1 sapphire + 2 WE = 46

Total: 169, Baseprice at Sellback to npc: 175, market value 250gc+

 

That is a nice reward for having a skill at 60+.

Edited July 15, 2006 by RallosZek

[Kindar_Naar]

 

A - Potion cost before update:

A1 - Vial = 4gc (from other players / market); Wine = 1.75gc (Wine Quest)

Total = about 6gc

A2 - Vial = 5gc (mana pot from Mira); Wine = 2gc (Tavern)

Total = 7gc

 

Thus unharvestable cost: 6-7gc.

Price on market of SR? 9-12gc.

Profit: 3-6gc per

 

 

One thing I need to mention, Ghrae. The price of SR was 11gc + VIAL. That means that the vial was exchanged and thus cannot be added to unharvestable cost (it wasn't lost with potion). That is why I think that the profit for potioners did not change as long as they buy vials, becuase vials cost was put for customer to pay for. On the other hand if the potioner makes vials with Harvey, he makes greater profit, but he makes lower production (time needed to harvest quartz/make vials), so his gc/h stays more or less the same. So a potioner received now a chance of making greater profit if he finds a source of cheap vials.

[cordelia]

This thread is not a "fix the economy" thread. Perhaps you need to start a new thread for that.

I assume this is not directed at me. I made no such comments.

 

What are these numbers you are using? The ones dealing with number of vials needed per day?

 

I'm referring to Entropy's post below:

BTW, to have an idea how many vials entered a game every day (average day)

 

Empty Vial:

Quantity entered: 97101

Quantity removed: -60230

Quantity breakdown

Entry:

Bag: 9655

Npc: 520

Exit:

Bag: -8388

Labour: -51842

 

And after the update:

Empty Vial:

Quantity entered: 43884

Quantity removed: -70297

Quantity breakdown

Entry:

Bag: 13650

Npc: 7130

Exit:

Bag: -12842

Labour: -57455

 

Hmm... I found a miscalculation in my earlier numbers.

 

30,000 vials requires 300,000 seconds of cooldown, which comes out to 84 hours. If you calculate in 25-30% waste, then it comes out to around 110 hours of time. That's do'able. If an average of 4-5 ppl are sitting around Mira all the time they can produce 30,000 vials in a day. Mira will simply become another congregation point like storages.

 

These people produce an average of ~250 vials per hour. I'm not sure how accurate this is, waste may be much higher than 30% for something like this. Waste includes costs such as refillng your inventory with mana potions, time spent wasted between cooldown ending and the next cooldown. Is it do'able? seems so. Who will be these casters? primarily magic users who want to practice shield, restoration, magic immunity. Will these people charge more than 1gc per vial for their time spent sitting in front of Mira doing this? who knows? People seem to charge much more for muling FP's, so I don't really know. But this does produce magic xp, so ppl are more apt to ignore the time cost, however inefficient. Market price will inevitably be higher, though, so I would still estimate at least 9gc/ vial produced from Mira, minimum.

 

And yes, if the potioner wishes to practice magic slowly by quaffing vials at Mira while chatting, then he can indeed roll that into his profit, an extra 1g per potion. Again there is time cost involved, yet that is mitigated by magic xp gain here.

 

 

 

A - Potion cost before update:

A1 - Vial = 4gc (from other players / market); Wine = 1.75gc (Wine Quest)

Total = about 6gc

A2 - Vial = 5gc (mana pot from Mira); Wine = 2gc (Tavern)

Total = 7gc

 

Thus unharvestable cost: 6-7gc.

Price on market of SR? 9-12gc.

Profit: 3-6gc per

 

 

One thing I need to mention, Ghrae. The price of SR was 11gc + VIAL. That means that the vial was exchanged and thus cannot be added to unharvestable cost (it wasn't lost with potion). That is why I think that the profit for potioners did not change as long as they buy vials, becuase vials cost was put for customer to pay for. On the other hand if the potioner makes vials with Harvey, he makes greater profit, but he makes lower production (time needed to harvest quartz/make vials), so his gc/h stays more or less the same. So a potioner received now a chance of making greater profit if he finds a source of cheap vials.

 

Thank you. That's exactly the argument of marginal profit and time cost of vial production.

Edited July 15, 2006 by cordelia

[RallosZek]

I have 420emu (and harvesting 64) and I did perform this experiment. In approximately an hour, I mined 2k quartz in Nordcarn, then transferred this from store to harvey in ten short trips. So I made 400 vials per hour. Imagine how many more I could have made if I had even just one person helping me?

 

That's faster then I figured and is not a problem viewed on it's own. However, for 1k srs, that's 2.5 hours for the vials, 30 mins for the bq, guessing....10mins for the 2k bsf, before you start mixing them.

 

Also - if this is a potionist's burdon, and they don't mind, then why are vials now trading for 7gc and not 3-3.5gc. People not wanting to potion, but wanting vials to buy the potions are the ones that suddenly get a 3.5gc increase on the price of them plus they need another 3.5gc after usage of the potion.

 

Like I said earlier, let's wait till the vial oversupply is over and see if indeed there are enough people willing to do harvy runs to compensate 35k vials lost each day, since this is partly a gc issue and partly a supply issue.

[RallosZek]

Is it do'able? seems so. Who will be these casters? primarily magic users who want to practice shield, restoration, magic immunity.

 

Shield, yes. Restore/Magic Immunity - only godless people, since Sylpho and bones to mana is more cost and time efficient way (25gc for 4 srs of mana).