Honorable pking

[Lorck]

You should still have tried to talk with the diplomacy before if you wanted peace.

I asked to you to pm ladyreni in this very same topic.

You dont care, you only care to make hc look bad. And yes, if there was peace i would offer the items back to the players. Probably you will enjoy the war (it will certainly come) and have a nice day.

[Atmo]

Complete bs ghrae. Pk maps are here to pk and get pked. doesnt make you an outlaw.

Oh no you made more silver bars then me youre an outlaw!

[shallara]

Lorck, I am not solely addressing =HC=, I was attempting a discussion on the definitions of honorable(non outlaw) pk and non-honorable(outlaw) pk.

 

Due to the fact that I AGREE that not all pk, not even most pk, is outlaw behavior, yet I was ridiculed by most of this forum when I posted in outlaw.

 

This is not about the ongoing diplomacy discussion between Riva and =HC=

 

This is about the tendencies of this forum (meaning EL, not just this thread) to jump on anyone that posts any pk activity in outlaws.

 

There are pk actions that are outlaw in behaviour.

 

As stated, and (from what I have encountered) the majority of players agree with.

 

These actions, when reported in outlaw forums, where they belong should not receive ridicule directed at the poster.

 

This was my purpose in this thread.

 

It was not solely =hc=members that participated in said activities. I don't even know the names of all HC members.

 

This is directed at the entire EL forum participants.

 

Think before you post.

Know the story before you get involved.

And above all else, READ before jumping to a conclusion.

Half the posts on the prior thread (which is locked) were WAY off topic and had nothing to do with the original post. (which is why I think it was locked)

 

I am not trying to make any one or any guild look bad, I am merely getting full clarification on the subject.

If any one person looks bad, it is by their own doing. In this discussion, I am neither malicious, angry, rude, or any other negative emotion.

 

I do not enjoy war of any kind. If you do not know me (which you do not) you have no business presuming I would get enjoyment out of such an ugly situation. No war is pretty, even if in a game.

 

Another thing we all must remember. This is not 'just a game'. This is a community where REAL people can gather and participate in a role playing environment. Yes it is in the guise of a game. But let us never lose sight of the fact that there are real people on the other end of that keyboard.

 

If I have offended or slighted any person in any way, I deeply regret that. It was unintended, and I apologize.

[Lorck]

But still to post in outlaws is the last resort in trying to solve an issue. Is almost a declaration of war because that made the joy of the enemies.

 

Guild affairs should be talked on private, not in public. People already said that to you, i already said that in this topic, a few posts back.

 

The action of the hc guy was outlawish? Yes.

 

You had the right to post it on that forum? Yes.

 

Its make any sence to your diplomacy? No. Because after that war would be almost inevitable.

 

You had the right to call the entire guild outlaw? No, because it was an action of one member.

 

And after that, me and ladyreni said to you to discuss the issue in private, not in public. That shows that you dont care about peace, the stuff that riva can lose fighting (or not trading with), you only care to stress the issue when it was already locked in a crazy try to make hc look bad.

[shallara]

Lorck, this thread is NOT about the current Riva/Hc situation!

As I have already stated TWICE and you have ignored!

I am on topic

You are not!

You are the one that keeps bringing up diplomacy between our guilds

I am as I have stated many times getting a definition

EL WIDE

of honorable/dishonorable pk

 

which is the basis of this topic

 

which you started

 

If you cannot differentiate between the two, you had no business even starting this thread, and it should be deleted immediately, as obviously your own post is distasteful to you and against the very diplomacy which you keep referring to, when it is, as you have stated, off topic, and does not belong in this thread.

 

As to stating that the thread was locked "in a crazy try to make hc look bad", as I was not the one that locked it , don't even have the authority to do so, and did not even contact anyone that would have the authority to do so, it is wrong of you to accuse me of that action.

[Kalach]

you only care to stress the issue when it was already locked in a crazy try to make hc look bad

 

 

As to stating that the thread was locked "in a crazy try to make hc look bad", as I was not the one that locked it , don't even have the authority to do so, and did not even contact anyone that would have the authority to do so, it is wrong of you to accuse me of that action.

 

Umm... I read Lorcks statement as meaning that you stress the issue to make HC look bad, not the thread was locked to make HC bad.

[Lorck]

You revived it, saying it was flaming etc, not me.

EDIT2: Kalach, it was exactly what i was trying to say.

My goal when i started this topic was to send a myth away, "all pkers are outlaws".

After it was largely sucessful Shalara made many questions asking what it should define as outlaw. When she finally got it, she revived the old thread saying she was right and to people who commented in the other thread to "stop flamming" and even more inpolite way to say "stfu" to them.

Edited June 30, 2006 by Lorck

[Ghrae]

Most of you who flamed me are doing so based on Lorck's first post in thread.

 

Clever of him to remove that one line out of context of the situation which then changes the meaning of the statement altogether.

 

Next time, I would suggest that all of you actually research what happened FIRST, then THINK about what is going on, then post your opinions.

 

If you kill someone, people typically will think you are an outlaw. Note: being an outlaw doesn't mean you broke a single game rule. You could have done everything by the book and still be considered an outlaw. An outlaw is a community feeling that your actions are evil or immoral, etc and not necessarily against any game rules.

 

If you kill and get posted on Outlaw, that is a NORMAL reaction.

 

And before you get bent out of shape, it's the EXACT SAME LOGIC that you all use. You say that if a person walks into PK map and gets killed, that is an expected reaction. So is when they post about you on Outlaws.

 

My comment did not indicate any wrong doing, only an expected reaction to PK actions.

 

I don't remember saying "=HC= must be disolved! They are breaking rules". My comment was that the post in question did have merit in the forum it was found.

 

Now, since reviving issues from other threads is against FORUM RULES (please read them if you haven't already), I suggest this thread be locked.

[Lorck]

Its a normal and wrong reaction. And you said only two lines there, i cant see how it was out of context.

[Ghrae]

Context was based on the thread and the question posed that I answered.

[Lorck]

Man, you are saying this now. Look at one of your many posts saying that is a "normal reaction". If it is, it should not be. And this is your opinion, so that was not out of context.

 

And now of course you forgot the many arguments showed in this thread to support one side, you forgot even the talk of the last night.

 

EDIT: One more time: i had only a goal when i started this topic: to fight a myth. It dont had anything to do with closed threads.

Edited June 30, 2006 by Lorck

[Ghrae]

Lorck, is this a personal grudge you have against me? If so, then take it to the game.

 

My arguements last night to you in a 45+ minute PM session were the same thing:

 

- Player A walks in to PK map

- Player B (Pro PKer) kills Player A

- Player B says "lol"

- Player B says "You should expect that"

- Player A gets on forum under Outlaw and says "Player B killed me without cause"

- Player A says to Player B "You should expect that".

 

What part of action / reaction don't you understand???

 

What I don't understand is why you care? If you kill someone, what does having your name in Outlaws do to you? You don't lose xp. You don't lose items. You don't lose levels. Nothing has been done but a general warning to other players that you might kill them if they are in a PK map with you.

 

Since you want players to know that anyway... aren't they doing you a favor by re-establishing that PK maps are dangerous and here are a bunch of reasons why (list all the PKers that have killed them).

 

Now, I know you have a language barrier. You told me that last night... but please, re-read slowly our PM session last night.

 

One more time, I'm not saying you did anything wrong. Likewise, they are not doing anything wrong.

 

You kill them. They post about you.

 

PKers like to say "get over it" (etc). Well... do the same. Get over it.

[Kalach]

What I don't understand is why you care? If you kill someone, what does having your name in Outlaws do to you? You don't lose xp. You don't lose items. You don't lose levels. Nothing has been done but a general warning to other players that you might kill them if they are in a PK map with you.

 

Beyond a general warning against other players, you are also having your reputation slammed. (Libel) You are being (unfairly?) equated with bagjumpers and scammers. It's a personal insult.

[Lorck]

The usual and expected reaction would be train hard to be able to kill the agressor yourself or pay (or ask to a friend) someone to take revenge for you. Not to post in outlaw, because its not an outlaw action.

 

Outlaws ruins reputations and make your enemies have joy (i think its more harsh then just lose exp or itens). Re-read this thread, and you will see why pking should not be regarded as an outlaw action (at least most ways of pking, there are several circunstances that is not honorable).

Edited June 30, 2006 by Lorck

[Thordin]

Scammers, bag stealers, troublemakers, no-good doers! Criminals! Most wanted lists, post them here!

 

Tell me please, what of these are PKers? I don't get it myself.

 

- Are they scammers? Obviously not.

 

- Are they bag stealers? Not at all, they have won the drop, they did not steal it.

 

- Are they troublemakers? In which way means killing in Player KILLING map a trouble?

 

- Are they no-good doers? They do only what is the very nature of that map.

 

- Are they criminals? What crime did they do then? Same answer as above.

 

So tell me please, why should be PKers posted here along with those who comitted scamming, bagjumping or anything bad. Being an outlaw means you did nasty things. If you wish to be PKing nasty, why do we have those maps then?

 

I'm confused about that. Can someone clarify this for us all please?

[Ornitorrinco]

Outlaws forum is made of drama. Just get rid of it and drama will stop.

[shallara]

OK Lorck, you are trying to dispel the myth that all pk-ers are outlaws.

 

We all accept that

 

In order to accept the definition that pk-er does not equal outlaw, you must then define what actions are outlaw and what are not

 

If you do something that is outlaw in nature, as defined my the majority of players, then do not be surprised if your name appears under outlaws

 

If several members of a guild display actions that are outlaw in nature, then do not be surprised when that guild is posted about in the outlaws forum

 

That is my last word on this subject, in this forum.

If you have questions of me, please pm me and I would be happy to discuss things with you via forum pm

[Zaer]

pfft dont bother arguing with them lorck, the fun days of pking in this game are long gone.

 

I remember many fun nights in KF when *co* ruled it, and then many after that. These days everyone take it too seriously and makes a post everytime they get killed. Back then you could kill a friend and it wouldnt matter, you could still go back and chat to them.

 

Why you think like 95% of the cool people left this game?

 

and gj Ornitorrinco, this forum is basically the same as the flames forum, ahh good old pl4tyn4, she had a rare gift for seeing the future, shame i didnt believe her at the time.

[Matess]

I agree with u Lorck actually but pk guild like CEL only cause Ghrae has different opinion ....lol

Good match for u , i wonder if u was so brave on low a/d

[Ghrae]

What I don't understand is why you care? If you kill someone, what does having your name in Outlaws do to you? You don't lose xp. You don't lose items. You don't lose levels. Nothing has been done but a general warning to other players that you might kill them if they are in a PK map with you.

 

Beyond a general warning against other players, you are also having your reputation slammed. (Libel) You are being (unfairly?) equated with bagjumpers and scammers. It's a personal insult.

 

Not libel. If they claim you killed them and you did. It is truth. If the community agrees that the action in that particular situation was "outlaw" then that is a community opinion of you.

[Lorck]

To Matess: ghrae requested me to not attack CEL for that, and i will not.

 

And about bravery, i attacked you with 112/125 of attack/defense with 88/89 att/def. Attacked toomass, attacked asgnny, attacked many other people stronger than me. Me and omg this days fought asgnny and xanter at same time and we won.

 

I attack if i have a reason to. It does not really matter if i am stronger or not. Of course i dont fight to death (i do in no drop day, sometimes), risking a hard to earn rostogol.

 

EDIT: Yeah, you got your reputation slammed, yes its unfair to post in outlaw for not an outlaw action. And the community at large agrees that to simply attacking is a natural thing on pk, not an exception. And its way to hard to be as same level of scammers because you did what are you suposed to do.

Edited June 30, 2006 by Lorck

[Ghrae]

The usual and expected reaction would be train hard to be able to kill the agressor yourself or pay (or ask to a friend) someone to take revenge for you. Not to post in outlaw, because its not an outlaw action.

 

Outlaws ruins reputations and make your enemies have joy (i think its more harsh then just lose exp or itens). Re-read this thread, and you will see why pking should not be regarded as an outlaw action (at least most ways of pking, there are several circunstances that is not honorable).

 

If you are worried about your reputation and what people may think of you, then why are you a PKer?

 

Let's for a minute say there was no Outlaw forum. Even in the days of past people hated PKers and avoided them or didn't trade with them or whatever. The same feelings where there. This just organizes it. It hasn't changed what has always existed when people thought they were unfairly PK'd.

 

And uh... if you want to do nothing more than PK, aren't there games out there were all maps are PK? Perhaps that is the answer to those that feel this game now has enough of a community to have an "Outlaws" section.

 

I agree with u Lorck actually but pk guild like CEL only cause Ghrae has different opinion ....lol

Good match for u , i wonder if u was so brave on low a/d

 

I have a feeling I would not last long unless Lorck were turned into a female armed goblin.

[Matess]

To Matess: ghrae requested me to not attack CEL for that, and i will not.

And about bravery, i attacked you with 112/125 of attack/defense with 88/89 att/def. Attacked toomass, attacked asgnny, attacked many other people stronger than me. Me and omg this days fought asgnny and xanter at same time and we won.

Yup but we all r pkers

[Lorck]

Man, people can have a reputation and be a pker.

 

Pker is not the same of outlaw.

 

I will try to explain (stuff i already did before in this same thread, to see if you can understand this time).

 

When you trade with someone the normal is to not get scammed. If you are the other is outlaw. If you lose a bag, the normal is to get the bag back, if you dont the other are an outlaw. The normal in pk is to get attacked, if you dont is because people was nice to you.

 

To get attacked is the nature of pk. If there are only pk maps, i would agree with you. But you are not forced to enter pk maps (nobody forced you to participated), instead there are warnings saying that is not a wise idea to enter, because you may lose itens.

 

You entered for your own will and responsability (if someone scammed you to enter the map, that person is an outlaw). You accepted the rules.

 

In scamming or bagjumping there was not a choice before. Someone just cheated on you and nothing that you could do would prevent that. Pk can be prevented, if you dont go there you cant get pked. (Oh, but if you attacked you should expect to go to outlaws, right? No. Because its not an outlaw action).

 

One more thing. There is no point to outlaw a person for doing what they are suposed to do and when people are already warned. You just put them at the same level of the scammers and ruined his/her reputation.

 

EDIT: And in my personal war with ghrae, there are no way i can win in pk. Because he dont go there. But he can ask for someone (for instance toomass) and he would pk me. There is a no win situation for me. And i still did that. Why? It was the right thing to do.

Edited June 30, 2006 by Lorck

[Zaer]

Let's for a minute say there was no Outlaw forum. Even in the days of past people hated PKers and avoided them or didn't trade with them or whatever. The same feelings where there. This just organizes it. It hasn't changed what has always existed when people thought they were unfairly PK'd.

 

No they didnt, in the old days PKers were just a part of the game. There were many hours spent with non-pkers and pkers sitting in KF having a laugh and chatting, with a few good natured fights too. It is when people run crying to the forums every time they get killed that PK becomes an outlaw action in the eyes of a shortsighted minority