The War On Terrorism

[Entropy]

If you apply this to both sides then i could agree.

 

On the other hand, if the nazis would have won WW2 then the partisans now would be considered terrorists, not freedom fighters, so what defines 'Terrorism' and 'fighting for freedom' is who wins the wars.

 

Worst thing of the american foreign politics is that your government just assumes to be always right and acts following this logic.

 

Amen!

[Mad_Raven]

So,this thread can be summed up in 2 words: war sucks.

[Arnieman]

"There are some ... who would tell you that war is all glory, but I will tell you, it is all hell." - William T. Sherman (not a very nice guy, if you read up on his tactics)

 

What can we say? We (humans) bend the truth whatever way it works for us - many times, we break it. I mean, almost 3,000 US soldiers dead in 3 years and many Iraqi civilians and more terrorist attacks over there by itself looks like we should pull out, before we lose any more! Then again, what do you say for the fact that we are about the only sanity in the middle of chaos there, and the people who want us there because they are afraid of their own people?

 

ttlanhil - gun control only works if there are no guns of a certain type to control. Anything short of the complete worldwide destruction of all weapons of a certain time is a certainty that it will end up on "black markets". I don't get why people think this will work, when criminals don't follow the law. One more thing - if truly America were dictatorial, I'm certain by now at least half of the Americans posting on this forum would be detained - something that hasn't happened yet.

 

I just want to post a couple questions here, to the residents of the United States of America - the ones with the real chance to change anything in the USA, if you want to. 1.) Who here is legally eligible to vote in an election? 2.) How many of you (who are eligible) bother to register and vote? I'll make my point clear - if ever there have been elections that prove that every vote counts, they have happened here in the last few years. If you can't vote, for whatever reason, or just don't bother, you gave up your right to say anything that means something, if you had it to begin with.

[ttlanhil]

ttlanhil - gun control only works if there are no guns of a certain type to control. Anything short of the complete worldwide destruction of all weapons of a certain time is a certainty that it will end up on "black markets".

err... even if that were true... because they exist is reason to allow people to have them? nope. and it's not true... otherwise all other countries, whatever the firearms rights, would have equal levels of firearms ownership, (mis)use, violent crimes, murders... you get the idea. the stats don't back that up.

okay, so maybe you go from any civilian able to have a semi-automatic weapon (which they have no valid reason for, unless you count self-defense, which can result in a simple robbery (with no injury) turning into a gun battle) to them being harder to get and more expensive for the criminals to have. is that better or worse off?

and how many deaths aren't from criminals with firearms, but idiots? people who don't respect and look after their gun; who injure or kill other people when they (think they) get attacked... all of those are gone if firearms are only in the possession of criminals and cops. and then the civilians will hand over the money when they get robbed instead of someone(s) getting shot

plus if the police find someone with one, they can be arrested, all the weapons taken away, no ability to argue that the person has any rights to them

One more thing - if truly America were dictatorial, I'm certain by now at least half of the Americans posting on this forum would be detained - something that hasn't happened yet.

have you seen what rights are being eroded? and more importantly, how few people even notice or care (or if they do notice, they're stupid enough to think that it's justified by the 'threats' of the time... no thought to how wrong that is, or that they don't get the rights back later). you can lead sheep without needing to lock them up

How many of you (who are eligible) bother to register and vote?

I'm not a US citizen, but I do vote here. and I consider the outcome and vote accordingly (usualy for minor parties. they're what tend to have some control over the major two parties... who have become similar enough that the only difference is which one is in charge and which one is whinging about what the other is doing wrong)

If you can't vote, for whatever reason, or just don't bother, you gave up your right to say anything that means something, if you had it to begin with.

so... apathy. and for the people who vote incorrectly (as in not checking the box, whatever, causing the vote to be void) or have no clue what the end result would mean and not voting to actually acheive something(like voting at random, or worse yet for whoever looks nicest on telly)... ignorance/stupidity.

just another aspect of the problem I pointed out

Edited May 27, 2006 by ttlanhil

[Entropy]

Then again, what do you say for the fact that we are about the only sanity in the middle of chaos there, and the people who want us there because they are afraid of their own people?

 

Oh, how I wish you will spend your eternity in hell for saying that..

Here, look what your beloved army is doing, in it's sanity:

 

She said the rest of the family gathered in the living room. Eman says she "heard a lot of shooting, so none of us went outside. Besides, it was very early, and we were all wearing our nightclothes." When the marines entered the house, they were shouting in English. "First, they went into my father's room, where he was reading the Qur'an," she claims, "and we heard shots."

 

According to Eman, the marines then entered the living room. "I couldn't see their faces very well - only their guns sticking into the doorway. I watched them shoot my grandfather, first in the chest and then in the head. Then they killed my granny."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1784307,00.html (for the full article)

[Arnieman]

Yes, I should spend eternity in hell for nothing I've ever done, just for a feeling that I support - are you picking and choosing from what I've said?

 

You know what? I could base off that article you posted that you believe all the US forces over there are just slaughtering Iraqis without even a thought - or laughing about it.

 

It is tragic that it happens to one person, and I would like to see the people responsible prosecuted - oh wait, aren't they already working on that? They may not get everyone who does it, but they can't get all the murders solved here, either... Maybe we should give all the US forces the death penalty ourselves, to make them all pay for what one or a few have done...

 

For as many stories of tragedy there are, there are stories of hope - the true netral observer has to hear them all.

 

ttlanhil: a few things -

 

One - the fact that some rights have eroded doesn't justify the further erosion of other rights. Also, on same point, certain key rights still exist - like free speech hasn't totally gone away, or freedom of religion, or freedom of the press (although this can be argued about whether certain news is controlled by the media, or drummed up for ratings because it tells people what will make then react more), or freedom of assembly...

 

Two - I personally feeel that, while people should be able to own firearms, it should only be for the people who know what they are doing with them - education and background checks should be REQUIRED! After all, the "dumb" things you hear happening to people with guns always seem to happen when people are not respecting that it's not a toy - it'd a potential killer! Also, maybe civilians don't need semi-automatics, or anti-tank weapons, but then again, what if we chose to rise up against a thoroughly corrupt government? We're gonna have a lot of power to do so with pitchforks versus tanks...

 

Three - If you outlaw guns for the sheer stupidity of some of the people using them, and the lives lost for it, you have to outlaw vending machines, automobiles, computers, tractors, trees, and life itself.

 

Four - onto the non-gun point. I personally believe in the right to vote is not just a right - it certainly is not a priveledge in free societies! It's a responsibility of all voting-eligible people to get informed on candidates and issues, and then vote accordingly. Apathy is not an excuse to just accept what comes down the pike and complain. There is a reason there are elections held, and that is so YOU can decide who serves you, which is as it should be, not the corrupt self-service we have now. If you really want to see change, then make it happen - endless words paired with inaction will not do it.

 

Four, continued - I know about the bad ballots - it was bad when that happened, but most places that were using that system have moved away from the "punch-card" ballots - if not already using another system, they are moving to other systems. The ballot here - anyone remember the scan-sheets in school? Same idea - how hard is it to fill in a bubble? And, if you do mess that up, there are clear directions to ask the poll-workers for a new ballot. And, then, how about the infirm who can't make it out to the polls? There are clear processes for getting Absentee ballots in every state, if I recall right. There is no excuse for not trying to get your vote out, if you ask me. If you don't do that, you don't deserve to speak out, because you already gave your acceptance to whatever would come.

[Entropy]

Yes, I should spend eternity in hell for nothing I've ever done, just for a feeling that I support - are you picking and choosing from what I've said?

This is my feeling. You are allowed to your feelings

And so it happens that I am not God, so is not like I decide your eternity

 

You know what? I could base off that article you posted that you believe all the US forces over there are just slaughtering Iraqis without even a thought - or laughing about it.

Not ALL of them, but a large part do indeed feel that way.

 

It is tragic that it happens to one person, and I would like to see the people responsible prosecuted - oh wait, aren't they already working on that? They may not get everyone who does it, but they can't get all the murders solved here, either... Maybe we should give all the US forces the death penalty ourselves, to make them all pay for what one or a few have done...

Again, not to all of them, but those who were responsible for that massacre should be given the death penalty. I mean, that's what happens for the civilian criminals in the US, no? You kill someone in cold blood, you are very likely to get the death penalty. Especially if you kill a child. Do you want to bet that IF they indeed get prosecuted for it, they will get at the very most 10 years in jail?

 

For as many stories of tragedy there are, there are stories of hope - the true netral observer has to hear them all.

 

That is besides the point. Of course there are some stories of hope, but if I go and kill your familly, and you inherit their money, does that justify my action? I mean, afterall I caused something good to happen to you.

[Mar(c)]

Not gonna mix in with the discussion...

But last Tuesday I saw an impressive, shocking movie about three British citizens getting entangled in the US invasion while they were on their way to a wedding in Pakistan.

Part documentary, part dramatization – The Road to Guantanamo releases June 23rd in the US. In Europe it's been released already in uk/es/tr/fi/hu, de/nl/at/be/fr will follow in the first week of June. (on IMDb)

[Arnieman]

Yes, I should spend eternity in hell for nothing I've ever done, just for a feeling that I support - are you picking and choosing from what I've said?

This is my feeling. You are allowed to your feelings

And so it happens that I am not God, so is not like I decide your eternity

Thank God.

You know what? I could base off that article you posted that you believe all the US forces over there are just slaughtering Iraqis without even a thought - or laughing about it.

Not ALL of them, but a large part do indeed feel that way.

That there is some good does not negate the bad, but to believe there is no good to come out of it... It's too late now to determine if good CAN come - all that can be done now is MAKE good happen.

It is tragic that it happens to one person, and I would like to see the people responsible prosecuted - oh wait, aren't they already working on that? They may not get everyone who does it, but they can't get all the murders solved here, either... Maybe we should give all the US forces the death penalty ourselves, to make them all pay for what one or a few have done...

Again, not to all of them, but those who were responsible for that massacre should be given the death penalty. I mean, that's what happens for the civilian criminals in the US, no? You kill someone in cold blood, you are very likely to get the death penalty. Especially if you kill a child. Do you want to bet that IF they indeed get prosecuted for it, they will get at the very most 10 years in jail?

If they are tried, and if they are convicted, I expect them to be treated as they legally should be.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/26/...in1660359.shtml- If I read this right, even American media (well, one network) is crying out against what happened - very likely, we'll see something done.

For as many stories of tragedy there are, there are stories of hope - the true netral observer has to hear them all.

That is besides the point. Of course there are some stories of hope, but if I go and kill your familly, and you inherit their money, does that justify my action? I mean, afterall I caused something good to happen to you.

Good and bad aren't self-cancelling. You can't add good to bad, and suddenly all is good, nor can you necessarily take it the other way. Every event needs to be taken in and of itself.

 

Let me put this another way - Say we're working together - you're helping a group of people, and I'm slaughtering them. Did either of us really change what the other did, by what we did?

 

EDIT: Fixing the quotes.

Edited May 27, 2006 by Arnieman