The hydrogenium

[ville-v]

...umm maybe you should read the LINK he posted above.. like read the entire thing and you will know why

i read the post thats why i posed my question about will the s2e's be stackable...with them not being stackable, you can get but a max of 35 ores at a time...which will kee it rare...but tedious

 

As Ent said in blog, you don't lose s2e for each harvest, you just have change to lose it...

[Entropy]

No, as I put it in my blog, you lose it.

[Phax]

I see it like this, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but here goes - this ore is in one particular spot, behind a choke-point where PKers can camp and extort. If you want the ore, you either pay off the PKers, hope for speed, or buy it from someone who had to pay off the PKers. Few people will be good enough friends with all of the high level people to get in, leading to problems along the "have a friend guard you" tactic. Then, manufactors have s2e's to sell - those will get sold, used up, or become PKer drops before they approach the ore... more money, unless you are your own sword maker.

 

Isn't paying protection fees to the PKers how things work in a certain country?

no pkers in a country have thermal serp and crown of life

Edited May 15, 2006 by Phax

[Arnieman]

I see it like this, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but here goes - this ore is in one particular spot, behind a choke-point where PKers can camp and extort. If you want the ore, you either pay off the PKers, hope for speed, or buy it from someone who had to pay off the PKers. Few people will be good enough friends with all of the high level people to get in, leading to problems along the "have a friend guard you" tactic. Then, manufactors have s2e's to sell - those will get sold, used up, or become PKer drops before they approach the ore... more money, unless you are your own sword maker.

 

Isn't paying protection fees to the PKers how things work in a certain country?

We pay about 10% of what we make so that our professional PKers go and kill people around the world. Yet you don't complain about that, and even support them...

I'm not paying them to not to kill me, and then have them able to stand over my head, take my money, and kill me anyway.

 

I am paying for them to go halfway around the world, and kill/detain people bent on killing me.

 

Not only that, but here's another difference - IRL, most places, you kill someone, you get arrested and jailed. In EL, you kill someone, you get gloating rights and whatever they drop, and no official reprisal against you for the act.

[Rend]

All I can say is 'WWOOOOOTTT!!!'. It's fine time that something on the crafting side of the game entailed some danger. Nice indeed.

 

This will also force players to work together to get enough of this ore to be able to do anything with it.

 

.... 3. To remove some of the mindlessness of harvesting.

 

Edited May 15, 2006 by Rend

[Entropy]

Ah, but if you don't pay, they will come and arrest you. And if you try to flee, they will PK you, and they will gloat on how they PKed a criminal who tried to flee from them.

[ville-v]

No, as I put it in my blog, you lose it.

 

So each ore will cost in market more than s2e? Do we really need harvestable that you can't buy for lower than 450-600gc each? And what will be price of bar then? 5-7k each?

 

And what is the price of plate? If it needs 10 hydrogenium bars, just those cost more than 50k. So can buy 2 or more CoLs for full titanium plate set... And one fail while making costs as much...

Edited May 15, 2006 by ville-v

[m_bee]

I usually don't get into these debates, cause they change nothing, but well, im bored today...

 

You want to make it expensive, go along with that. You want to make it hard to get, remove the back entrance and leave only the secret one, you want to harvest it with a sword... well, it is not impossible, though a bit strange, but that is not anything important.

 

I just have two thoughts about this thing:

1. 
   One: im not sure it is compatible with the rule 17, so you will need to make a little modification of this rule. Be sure, that high level pk'ers can, and will, monopolize this resource. They can even make an alliance to guard it 24/7.
    
   Two: As arnieman and some other persons said, you can never be sure if you can trust the pk'er that you are paying to, so, why dont give him the key to your storage and say "its yours"? We all know what a monopoly means... dont we?
   

Cheers 8)

Edited May 15, 2006 by m_bee

[Entropy]

You don't like it, don't play it.

And can you elaborate how that is not compatible with rule number 17? I don't quite understand.

[CelticLady]

This is the same first line I just put on my post in our guild forum about this:

 

I like it in a sick twisted sort of way and hate it in a WTF was he thinking???? kind of way.

 

Here is my take on it...yeah, it'll be a hassle and will make the new plate insanely expensive (good for me when I start selling it ) and will take alot of creative thinking and teamwork on how to get it in enough quantity for as little money as possible. But ya know what??? I'll do what I need to to get it.

 

Less people willing to go through the trouble to get it means less pk'ers sitting at the entrance to kill you. They will spend their time elsewhere or harv/sell the ore themselves. And, if I recall correctly, it is illegal to block resources or entrances so they will have to leave a way for you to get in.(They can still try and pk you, but can't just block the entire entrance I don't think) Once inside it is no longer PK. So in theory you can mine unmolested by them and get the heck out with your well deserved ore.

 

Am I crazy about the idea? Heck NO!!! I'm a lover...erm...manu'er, not a fighter, so pk maps are not on my list of places to go. But I will find a way to get that ore. Even though now I will need to start making s2e's which I never made before cause I couldn't sell em for much. *shrug*

 

Anyways...Ent, you are so twisted I love it

This game is rarely ever boring to me.

[Kindar_Naar]

And what is the price of plate? If it needs 10 hydrogenium bars, just those cost more than 50k.

 

Nobody said it should be easy to get one. It should be a rather rare item.

If the cost is closer to 10-20k, it would make iron (and steel) useless. So if you want to get better protection, you need to work for it. If you can't afford, you stick to iron. Such is life.

Edited May 15, 2006 by Kindar Naar

[m_bee]

Ok, first, im not attacking, I like this. If i did not care about EL, i would shut up and go anywhere else.

 

Second, this "Resources include, but are not limited.." is what made me think that "maybe" -note that i said textually "im not sure"- it was a bit incompatible with that way that the rule 17 is currently written.

 

Its maths, the ore is a resource, the the pk'ers will lock it. Just that.

 

Just my thoughts, that does not mean that they are the truth

[Thordin]

Ok, first, im not attacking, I like this. If i did not care about EL, i would shut up and go anywhere else.

 

Second, this "Resources include, but are not limited.." is what made me think that "maybe" -note that i said textually "im not sure"- it was a bit incompatible with that way that the rule 17 is currently written.

 

Its maths, the ore is a resource, the the pk'ers will lock it. Just that.

 

Just my thoughts, that does not mean that they are the truth

 

This is where the alliances between guilds comes in handy...

[Entropy]

Ok, first, im not attacking, I like this. If i did not care about EL, i would shut up and go anywhere else.

 

Second, this "Resources include, but are not limited.." is what made me think that "maybe" -note that i said textually "im not sure"- it was a bit incompatible with that way that the rule 17 is currently written.

 

Its maths, the ore is a resource, the the pk'ers will lock it. Just that.

 

Just my thoughts, that does not mean that they are the truth

Blocking entrances/exits is illegal, and if someone does that he or she will be punished.

Attacking people in PK maps is NOT illegal.

[Suessie]

Ent:

"The mining, however, will be extremely difficult. Not only that it is in a very inaccessible places, past a cave full of dangers with extreme heat areas that can kill weak players in a second, in addition to being a PK map."

 

Together we are strong

 

Except a few players, we are only able to harvest these ores in teams and I think some of the guilds will need their alliances also.

So I think the gameplay will change the community in a better way I hope.

And for the game itself:

It will make it more like a thriller to get these ores - this reminds me of my first book I tried to get from Ardur or the wine quest you need to run run run (will never forget this )

[Arnieman]

Ok, first, im not attacking, I like this. If i did not care about EL, i would shut up and go anywhere else.

 

Second, this "Resources include, but are not limited.." is what made me think that "maybe" -note that i said textually "im not sure"- it was a bit incompatible with that way that the rule 17 is currently written.

 

Its maths, the ore is a resource, the the pk'ers will lock it. Just that.

 

Just my thoughts, that does not mean that they are the truth

Blocking entrances/exits is illegal, and if someone does that he or she will be punished.

Attacking people in PK maps is NOT illegal.

Therein you have ambiguity pf the rules.

 

You cannot block resources - If tons of PKers were camping, say, the entrance to Crystal Caverns in Desert Pines, that would be "blocking entrances" (apart from being totally pointless, that's not a PK area). It's the same thing with people who (at least used to) block the arena entrances - if you can't enter/leave, the resource is blocked.

 

Now, on the other hand, the entrance is on a PK map - all people have to do is camp that entrance, and kill anyone who comes close. The resource is effectively blocked, breaking the rule, but since they are PKing people on a PK map, they aren't breaking a rule...

Ah, but if you don't pay, they will come and arrest you. And if you try to flee, they will PK you, and they will gloat on how they PKed a criminal who tried to flee from them.

Again - you still aren't paying them protection money so THEY won't kill you - if anything, it's protection money that they try stop others who would come after you from coming after you.

 

This is effectively where you have to trust that the person "guarding" you isn't the same person trying to kill you - not a RL reality for me, and I really don't know about where you are - I'd move if I felt like that was the case.

Edited May 15, 2006 by Arnieman

[Thordin]

Why do you have impression that this entrance will be overcrowded by PKers? Sure there will be some, but if they want new armor, they'll need us as the makers and we will need them as the customers. Only the stupid ones will be killing us, but they won't last long, if the cleverer ones realize, that if they kill us, they won't have anything. But I agree, that it may cause some troubles, flamings, swearings, curses and fed up harvesters...

[Entropy]

Therein you have ambiguity pf the rules.

 

You cannot block resources - If tons of PKers were camping, say, the entrance to Crystal Caverns in Desert Pines, that would be "blocking entrances" (apart from being totally pointless, that's not a PK area). It's the same thing with people who (at least used to) block the arena entrances - if you can't enter/leave, the resource is blocked.

 

Now, on the other hand, the entrance is on a PK map - all people have to do is camp that entrance, and kill anyone who comes close. The resource is effectively blocked, breaking the rule, but since they are PKing people on a PK map, they aren't breaking a rule...

 

I think you do not understand the concept of blocking.

Blocking, in the context of EL gameplay, means effectively blocking the path to a resources, so people can not walk to/from it. Camping is OK, so long as a path is open. Making a wall of players to block a path is not acceptable, except in some situations (like creating a human shield to protect someone for example).

 

Again - you still aren't paying them protection money so THEY won't kill you - if anything, it's protection money that they try stop others who would come after you from coming after you.

 

This is effectively where you have to trust that the person "guarding" you isn't the same person trying to kill you - not a RL reality for me, and I really don't know about where you are - I'd move if I felt like that was the case.

 

No, you do not understand. The vast majority does not pay taxes so they feel protected against the big bad muslims (that's who the enemy is, no?). The vast majority pays taxes because if they do not do so, the government will come and punish them (fine, arrests, etc.).

 

And while not a reality to you, it is sadly a sad reality to many others. Wasn't the purpose of the war in Iraq to protect the people against the big bad wolf, Saddam? Great way to protect them by butchering causing collateral damage to "30K, more or less".

[CelticLady]

Why do you have impression that this entrance will be overcrowded by PKers? Sure there will be some, but if they want new armor, they'll need us as the makers and we will need them as the customers. Only the stupid ones will be killing us, but they won't last long, if the cleverer ones realize, that if they kill us, they won't have anything. But I agree, that it may cause some troubles, flamings, swearings, curses and fed up harvesters...

 

Excellent point Thordin. Some will realize that they will need the harvers to get the ore so they can have shiny new armor. There will still be others who like to sit there and pick us off just cause they can, but that is what dis rings are for. So I'd have to sacrifice a slot for them...no big deal, they stack.

 

And yeah, I'd be kinda mad if I got pk'ed on my way there and I'd cuss a blue streak in guild chan, but that's no different then when I crit failed on an enchanted sword earlier. There are risks of one kind or another in alot of different aspects of the game. This just poses a new obsticle for us to figure out how to work around.

[ttlanhil]

Sure there will be some, but if they want new armor, they'll need us as the makers and we will need them as the customers. Only the stupid ones will be killing us, but they won't last long, if the cleverer ones realize, that if they kill us, they won't have anything.

that's true if they're there to get drops or cause problems. but what about the 'exclusive rights' version? where a tough PK guild might blockade the place, and you're either in their guild, pay, or get attacked?

and it's all well and good to carry dis rings, but they don't help much since cooldown, not if there's more than one blockader

[Ulrih]

I'm glad to see something new coming to the game, however I'm happy I did not buy the Hydrogenium * books :> It'd be a waste of gcs for me now.

The method of making MSMH a rare resource is great and definitely it will work. It is a shame though that the s2e and other cheap swords won't see PK anymore.

Just a small suggestion: maybe the s2e could be exchanged by a NPC for a "MSMH mining catalysator", wich would be used at the mines. That would make more RP sense IMO.

 

'Bout "encouraging people to go to the new continent" - maybe the passage shouldn't be officially "secret" anymore.

Edited May 15, 2006 by Ulrih

[CelticLady]

Sure there will be some, but if they want new armor, they'll need us as the makers and we will need them as the customers. Only the stupid ones will be killing us, but they won't last long, if the cleverer ones realize, that if they kill us, they won't have anything.

that's true if they're there to get drops or cause problems. but what about the 'exclusive rights' version? where a tough PK guild might blockade the place, and you're either in their guild, pay, or get attacked?

and it's all well and good to carry dis rings, but they don't help much since cooldown, not if there's more than one blockader

 

 

Point taken...how bout this? Dis rings + bodyguards = you get in to mine + smart harv/manu'er talks camping guild into letting them in on further excursions in exchange for gc/manu services etc...

 

There are ways around it. And even if you have to make a deal with them, what's wrong with that? I'm sure I could come up with a few more if I weren't so tired, not to mention I wouldn't want every one of my competitors to know my strategies

 

I can see why alot of people aren't going to like it. I just personally think it is kind of a good thing. It will seriously limit the amount of people mining/selling the ore and in turn keep the price of the armor up. Will give me something to work towards and have to figure out something else for once other than how many leather helms I need to make for my next manu lvl. Each person is entitled to their own opinion.

 

People complained about how expensive COL and such is, but I see them regularly now. People will complain about how expensive the new armor is, but they will still buy it when they have the gc. I personally want the price to stay high. Not only because I could potentially make more money that way but also because any newb with several hours of lupine picking can buy plate and a serp now.... Once again, just throwing out my 2gc

[Vanyel]

I like the idea in general. I would only like to suggest at least two spots (both very difficult and all others restrictions).

Why two spots? Just to make PKers camping a bit more difficult.

[Suessie]

Oh maybe there should be a guardian in front of that entry, you have to knock down before entering. He could prevent "illegal" entry and on peaceday you will not be able to enter because of it.

[chaoogie]

...how do you illegally enter a map 0.0