bot and ip/nat questions (attn: entropy)

[zalmox]

some important questions before i decide to start working (and/or pay)

 

first of all hi and kudos for a great job (im proud to be your fellow countryman also )

 

im a software developer and id be interested to make a bot for personal use or maybe for later guild use, however, some baffling issues have come up and some issues which remain simply unclear to me.

so here goes, im considering to start making just an info bot. it will not trade at first just give out info to guild members on the guild channel or via pm.

the questions that arise are:

 

1) do i need to go through the whole procedure of registering the bot before playing with the test server or can i just play around for a short while and see if ill remain interested in pursuing active development and as such registering it and paying for it?

 

2) as i understand, an info bot will have to be declared and approved but not payed for. is this also correct?

 

3) as i understand, the payment of 20$ is a one time payment, for life, as per http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...pic=21669&st=20.

is this correct? (100$ seems a little pricey, but even that might be worth it as a one time payment in the future )

 

4) "All paid bots are allowed to go to the storage 2 times/week" quoted from http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15730

is this still correct?

 

5) "If the Player wants to level the bot manually, this has to be done BEFORE the character becomes

a bot and is declared to be one"

quoted from http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25104

is registering a new character and leveling him up before registering and paying for it as a trade bot still allowed? i hear different things from different people...

 

6) "10. Bots that are allowed to speak in official channels are only allowed one message no more frequently than once every 15 minutes. That means the entire message MUST fit in one posting only." also from http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25104

is this a server load issue or can the interval between "speaks" be decreased in case it only talks on guild channel and the guild approves?

 

7) again, as i understand , the bot hosting is up to me, which in turn gives rise to a nasty nasty problem... the most problematic for me.

my home connection has a fast line with 4 pc connected via nat. one of those is an old sgi o2 machine that i use for my website and as web proxy at times (i am on static ip so you can actually check it out yourself )

as i understand this is a problem as it violates the el rules of two characters on the same ip, or am i wrong?

this creates a double problem since soon my girlfriend (and hopefully my future wife ) will be moving in with me and she plays quite a bit too, maybe even too much

id like a clarification on this issue that seems to affect a lot of ppl around.

not to sound condescending, and still without having a replay to my question, i could suggest a fast patch to the client and server that will do some ip+unique id+aes... (i can go in detail if you like)

now i know that this can be hacked and moded (not so easily though if done properly) and has some downsides but it would resolve a lot of issues for some people imvho.

also to be taken into consideration is the fact that many people today have more that one pc at their disposal.

anyway, this probably belongs in the dev section so pardon my eagerness.

id like to hear your thoughts on this anyway since it seems unfair to me that my girlfriend and me cannot play from the same subnet without the fear of being banned. Seeing as many people ran into this kind of problem i ask before i do anything that could get me in trouble.

as a sidenote, id be willing to even compromise my privacy(lol) if it will solve the problems in terms of “natingâ€. maybe such a solution could be implemented, i donnow...

at any rate, this unclear-ness with the nat, restricts me from enjoying both a hobby (bot making, id have to register and run it on the same ip) and from enjoying the game alongside my girlfriend (not to mention trading with her)

 

since i like the game so much (and become addicted to it and since making a bot is a hobby and not my full time job i thought i should ask these questions before wasting my time in vain.

i hope to get some answers, maybe this can end up as a sticky since imo.

after reading the forums, i think the issues here are of general interest to others as well and are asked time and time again in various forms on different forums.

 

thank you in advance, looking forward to contribute something to this wonderful game, zalmox.

[ttlanhil]

disclaimer: I'm not an admin or mod, just an oldtimer with some technical experience

1) do i need to go through the whole procedure of registering the bot before playing with the test server or can i just play around for a short while and see if ill remain interested in pursuing active development and as such registering it and paying for it?

on the test server, you can do almost anything. rules against players, such as harassment, insults, impersonation, etc, apply, but as long as you don't try denial of service stuff, you can do whatever there. that's bots, modified clients, etc

2) as i understand, an info bot will have to be declared and approved but not payed for. is this also correct?

unless it trades in some way, it doesn't have to be paid for

100$ seems a little pricey

the blessing to have a huge carry cap will be quite handy though

10. Bots that are allowed to speak in official channels are only allowed one message no more frequently than once every 15 minutes.

is this a server load issue or can the interval between "speaks" be decreased in case it only talks on guild channel and the guild approves?

note: official. that means, currently, chans 1-20(not that all those channels would be acceptable for a bot to be on). unless you're chucking out a message every couple of seconds the server load isn't likely to go up much

as i understand this is a problem as it violates the el rules of two characters on the same ip, or am i wrong?

this creates a double problem since soon my girlfriend (and hopefully my future wife ) will be moving in with me and she plays quite a bit too, maybe even too much

I'd suggest that it doesn't count. that rule is to prevent you from using 2 chars at once; one helping the other. but I doubt many people would get a bot if they couldn't use it. last I heard, though it may not be currently true, is that you can have several people on the same IP, but they shouldn't help each other/trade. and if a mod enquires, you'll need to tell them the situation (not that incorrect answers to a mod is recomended otherwise )

not to sound condescending, and still without having a replay to my question, i could suggest a fast patch to the client and server that will do some ip+unique id+aes... (i can go in detail if you like)

now i know that this can be hacked and moded (not so easily though if done properly) and has some downsides but it would resolve a lot of issues for some people imvho.

also to be taken into consideration is the fact that many people today have more that one pc at their disposal.

you're right, it can be got around. it may take a modded client, but whatever you're checking on the machine can be replaced with rand(). one of the downsides to being open source

 

remember the disclaimer. anything that's not accurate will probably be corrected though

[dns_server]

1) you can do what you want on the test server within reson, it is there for testing clients and bots but don't go around purposely trying to find exploits in the server etc.

 

2) BEFORE you use the bot on the main server it must be tested and aproved for use, you must have the used and aproved, it must have a it's location defined and it needs aproval if it is going to sit on IP. Some features are restricted such as talking on official channels (first 20) too friequently so if it is doing something different it may need aproval.

 

 

3) for a trade bot it is $20 for a bot with the stats you level yourself so you decide what atributes it gets (and therfore it's carry capacity). or you can pay $100 for a bot with "blessed" stats such as charn wich has extra Physique and Coordination. If you want a bot that just sits and chats (like my bot iknow) you do not need to pay, just have it aproved.

 

4) yes, that applies unless you have special permission.

 

5) as above, yes you need to login in it and get your overall levels up to what you want with the atributes you choose (phys and coord for carry capacity) but do this BEFORE you have it aproved and running. Once it is a bot it cannot level anymore unless explcidly aproved, basically only the ants and aldara (who is allowed to kill off gargs neer storage) are allowed to gain any experience.

 

6) this is for talking on official channels (first 20) you can talk on guild channels or #gm as much as you want. the reson for the rule is to reduce the ammount of bot spam on official channels so bots can only announce thair goods or advertise thair guild that offen.

 

7) you can defenately have you and your bot on at the same time as long as it complies with the multiplaying rules. It is not against the rules to have 2 people on the same ip but there are restrictions.

GOOD: haveing a paid bot that you put stuff to sell and collect the money.

BAD: you use your bot to do something that would be unfair to everyone else such as useing the extra carry capacity to carry things for you. ("muleing") refer to the rules below

 

This is under rule 5, if you want more clarification contact a moderator.

5. Do not cheat.

Cheating in the game means AFK fighting(AFK=Away From Keyboard), AFK leveling in any skill, AFK harvesting, illegal bots, creating illegal clients, macroing, automating, exploiting bugs, muling, or any other form of illegal multi-playing*.

To use a bot, it must be registered and approved; it must adhere to the rules of the client's lisence and all your code must be open source. If you find a bug in the game, you must tell the owners of Eternal Lands immediately.

*Illegal multi-playing includes but is not limited to: muling, deathbag sitting, pvp training, luring people to pk maps with a newbie chararacter while lying in wait with another. Also note that it is very difficult to be able to define each and every form of illegal multi-playing or cheating, so these matters will be reveiwed and punishments decided upon on a case by case basis.

[zalmox]

thank you guys for replying. much clearer now.

however, i cant feel everyone is shaking off point 7 too quickly. it still is unclear to me, sorry.

ill agree its somewhat off topic on the bots section but this is the way it popped in my mind so... my apologies (a mod might just move this post to the appropriate place)

 

I'd suggest that it doesn't count. that rule is to prevent you from using 2 chars at once; one helping the other.

but I doubt many people would get a bot if they couldn't use it. last I heard, though it may not be currently true, is that you can have several people on the same IP, but they shouldn't help each other/trade. and if a mod enquires, you'll need to tell them the situation (not that incorrect answers to a mod is recomended otherwise )

 

"Also note that it is very difficult to be able to define each and every form of illegal multi-playing or cheating, so these matters will be reveiwed and punishments decided upon on a case by case basis."

 

this is exactly what scares me and the reason im being such a nag here.

imo, better be a nag first then just sorry later on.

 

the point is, of course if the bot and i share the same ip at the same time (duh!) we are prohibited from trading.

in such a case what would be the point of making a bot?

also, it really doesn't matter whether its a bot sharing my connection or another person.

that means that i cant trade with my partner (or the bot).

or as someone suggested, if my girlfriend and i want to be on at the same time we should always be on different maps.

pardon me but that solution is kind of missing the point of the game, if not completely stupid.

 

there are 2 things here.

 

1) it can be easily deduced from server traffic if a person really has two characters online at the same time or if indeed there are 2 distinct people sharing a connection.

unless i have 8 arms and an amazing coord exp

that also could be a solution. a simple statistical analysis of the traffic for both chars.

one can clearly see from simple traffic analysis that one character does one thing while another from the same ip does something else.

the windowing system doesn't even allow to use 2 character exactly at the same time.

 

2) id like some kind of solution suggested here. as i mentioned before, i dont have a problem to identify myself (and my girlfriend) somehow and prove that there are 2 different people sharing the same ip.

i believe this is not cheating. i don't know if this apply to bots also. i mean, after all, i will trade with the bot and my girlfriend from the same ip...

 

im sorry again if this post is redundant but i believe that the rules are formulated badly.

it might just be that i am stupid or that my English is very poor but somehow i doubt it.

 

it really sounds unreasonable to me that i have to send out my girlfriend to an internet cafe so we can play and trade each other.

i wont even mention the hassle of finding and paying extra for a host that will have to host my bot in such a case.

or, i can always send the bot out for coffee

 

i was kind of hoping for a definite official and clear answer to point 7 by a mod/admin...

ill give this a few more days before i take the official silence as a "we don't care" type of answer

that'll be a shame really...

 

after these 2 answers 2 more questions popped up.

 

1) does an infobot actually has a body? (where is trinitybot located?) id like to know that before i register a new char for nothing...

 

2) if i make an infobot and register it, is it possible later on to change its status to trade bot (assuming ill pay for it of course)?

 

like i said, worth to know these things before actually wasting time on a project that will get banned or stuck for some stupid reason later on.

 

you're right, it can be got around. it may take a modded client, but whatever you're checking on the machine can be replaced with rand(). one of the downsides to being open source

 

not at all, open source in this instance is not a downside imo.

closed source is much more vulnerable to attacks.

at any rate, any security measure (open or otherwise) can be circumvented eventually by someone technically skilled enough.

its just a matter of keeping your average cheat away no?

btw, the scheme im thinking of is something along the lines of a kerberos session (somewhat).

easily implemented. been doing this with js(ajax) lately for a website.

but this is really off topic here

[Torg]

the point is, of course if the bot and i share the same ip at the same time (duh!) we are prohibited from trading.

in such a case what would be the point of making a bot?

If the bot was paid for, and it was designated as a trade bot then this would be ok as its not cheating (you are restocking it etc).

 

also, it really doesn't matter whether its a bot sharing my connection or another person.

that means that i cant trade with my partner (or the bot).

or as someone suggested, if my girlfriend and i want to be on at the same time we should always be on different maps.

pardon me but that solution is kind of missing the point of the game, if not completely stupid.

Basically, the rule is regarding cheating through the obtaining of an advantage by using more than one character (eg. having 2 characters that you control. One who sits and mines, and one who mules).

 

It is certainly ok to have to characters online, even on the same machine at the same time. I personally often do (even if one doesn't actually do anything). However, to avoid any issues with possible illegal multiplaying, I always keep them on seperate maps.

 

As long as there are 2 different people controlling the characters that are helping each other then you are fine. You just need to explain the details of the situation if a mod asks.

 

 

1) it can be easily deduced from server traffic if a person really has two characters online at the same time or if indeed there are 2 distinct people sharing a connection.

unless i have 8 arms and an amazing coord exp

This isn't a solution. I have 3 computers on my desk. Often with different clients on each for testing etc. As I gave with the muling example above, that is very simple to control with just 2 arms and legs, and even chat still.

 

the windowing system doesn't even allow to use 2 character exactly at the same time.

This is not dealing with the above problem (which is the most common form of multiplaying out of interest)

 

it really sounds unreasonable to me that i have to send out my girlfriend to an internet cafe so we can play and trade each other.

i wont even mention the hassle of finding and paying extra for a host that will have to host my bot in such a case.

or, i can always send the bot out for coffee

I am currently, and have been running for several months (ie long before I became a mod) at a minimum of 2 clients and 2 bots (occasionally up to 5 clients and 3 bots) on my single IP internet connection without any trouble with the mods. This is because I have been honest about my activities and answered any questions when asked.

 

i was kind of hoping for a definite official and clear answer to point 7 by a mod/admin...

ill give this a few more days before i take the official silence as a "we don't care" type of answer

I hope you consider this to answer you question enough. Unfortunatly, you are over reacting which is why it has been shrugged off. The problems you have seen with people being banned is usually after they have been warned at least once and have continued still trying to deny their activities.

 

1) does an infobot actually has a body? (where is trinitybot located?) id like to know that before i register a new char for nothing...

Yes, all characters in the game, bots or people controlled are regular characters. The difference in a bot is a flag on the server to give it a purple name (and a few other things).

 

2) if i make an infobot and register it, is it possible later on to change its status to trade bot (assuming ill pay for it of course)?

Yes, once you have been given approval. Simply fill out another application with the new details.

[Aislinn]

im a software developer and id be interested to make a bot for personal use or maybe for later guild use, however, some baffling issues have come up and some issues which remain simply unclear to me.

so here goes, im considering to start making just an info bot. it will not trade at first just give out info to guild members on the guild channel or via pm.

1. Why would you need to trade with an info bot?

2. If you plan to purchase a "store" bot at a later date, you would need to reapply and restate your purpose for it. At that time you would be expected to state exactly what you plan to do with it and exactly what it will be doing. If it does not fall in with game and bot rules, it will be denied, along with reasons, well before you put any work into it. Please note you must do exactly as your application states, you cannot "add" features to an approved bot.

3. We have plenty of couples, and families, who play EL. This is allowed, and they are allowed to interact, but you must be prepared to answer questions if a mod asks you about it. In general, it's not so hard to determine multiple people from one IP, but sometimes things do look iffy. We do our best to make this a fair and fun environment for all, and we aren't out looking for trouble, but do our best to prevent it.

4. Maybe now would be a good time to state exactly what you planned on your bot doing for you, ie your "personal use". "Cheating" is determined on a case by case basis, for the simple reason there is absolutely NO way we can anticipate every possible thing people can and do come up with.

[Torg]

to start making just an info bot. it will not trade at first

1. Why would you need to trade with an info bot?

I'd say he was meaning to start with, he'll make an info bot... but eventually it will be extended to be a trade bot.

[zalmox]

to start making just an info bot. it will not trade at first

1. Why would you need to trade with an info bot?

I'd say he was meaning to start with, he'll make an info bot... but eventually it will be extended to be a trade bot.

 

yes, thank you Torg, that what i meant

 

thank you all for clearing up all these issues for me.

and sorry for being a nag or if it seemed like im overreacting.

i still think that the rules should be rephrased a little though

 

Maybe now would be a good time to state exactly what you planned on your bot doing for you, ie your "personal use".

"Cheating" is determined on a case by case basis, for the simple reason there is absolutely NO way we can anticipate every possible thing people can and do come up with.

 

nothing thats not already done.

logging guild channel (or another channel) for online search via web interface, some of the sms/trinity bots functionality and maybe later on adding the trade option (yes, reapplying and paying, i know... after its tested on the test server) not very different from what other trade bots do [inv/buy/sell/donate/etc...]

lower prices for guild members (or even freebes) i hope is left for my discretion

the only extra things that i can think of right now are:

pulling info (nicely, not spamming) from other bots and from some websites, such as who is online or other snippets from various sites (mostly small xml)

these will be forwarded to players via pm by request.

hope i wont have to declare ALL the various snippets of info or re-register, that indeed is rather dynamic, changing over time according to the needs

[Learner]

to start making just an info bot. it will not trade at first

1. Why would you need to trade with an info bot?

I'd say he was meaning to start with, he'll make an info bot... but eventually it will be extended to be a trade bot.

 

yes, thank you Torg, that what i meant

 

thank you all for clearing up all these issues for me.

and sorry for being a nag or if it seemed like im overreacting.

i still think that the rules should be rephrased a little though

 

Maybe now would be a good time to state exactly what you planned on your bot doing for you, ie your "personal use".

"Cheating" is determined on a case by case basis, for the simple reason there is absolutely NO way we can anticipate every possible thing people can and do come up with.

 

nothing thats not already done.

logging guild channel (or another channel) for online search via web interface, some of the sms/trinity bots functionality and maybe later on adding the trade option (yes, reapplying and paying, i know... after its tested on the test server) not very different from what other trade bots do [inv/buy/sell/donate/etc...]

lower prices for guild members (or even freebes) i hope is left for my discretion

the only extra things that i can think of right now are:

pulling info (nicely, not spamming) from other bots and from some websites, such as who is online or other snippets from various sites (mostly small xml)

these will be forwarded to players via pm by request.

hope i wont have to declare ALL the various snippets of info or re-register, that indeed is rather dynamic, changing over time according to the needs

The problem is if you add new features, you could be exceeding what your bot is approved for and possibly breaking the bot rules. We've already had several bots have their features expanded beyond acceptable levels and sometimes have locked the bots until they are fixed.

[Aislinn]

Even if you think something is already done with other bots, you still need to declare it and get approval for your bot.

 

Again, you are NOT allowed to add things to an approved bot that you did not apply for, without specific approval, no matter how small or unimportant you think the change is.

 

I also think there are restrictions on pulling information from the who's online page, you will definitely need to have more specific information when you apply, such as how frequently your bot will be doing that. Other pages and sites might also have restrictions. Also I would recommend you get permission from the other bot owners and site owners to have information pulled from their bots and sites.

 

Also please note this thread and posts in it, are not in anyway considered official requests or permissions for you to do anything on a bot. You must do a formal bot application.

[zalmox]

thanks again.

but no need to repeat things for the 3rd time, twice is quite enough for me

also, despite i may seem a little disoriented, i am not a 12 y/o kid

 

The problem is if you add new features, you could be exceeding what your bot is approved for and possibly breaking the bot rules. We've already had several bots have their features expanded beyond acceptable levels and sometimes have locked the bots until they are fixed.

 

Even if you think something is already done with other bots, you still need to declare it and get approval for your bot.

 

Again, you are NOT allowed to add things to an approved bot that you did not apply for, without specific approval, no matter how small or unimportant you think the change is.

 

IF, IF ill consider changes at a later time, i will request approval again. its quite clear from previous replies.

no problem there as far as i can see. please correct me if im wrong.

 

I also think there are restrictions on pulling information from the who's online page, you will definitely need to have more specific information when you apply, such as how frequently your bot will be doing that. Other pages and sites might also have restrictions. Also I would recommend you get permission from the other bot owners and site owners to have information pulled from their bots and sites.

 

1) sites.

i dont think a permission is needed as long as the material is not copyrighted or reproduction for personal use is restricted.

i also trust myself enough, after years of working as a sysadmin, to know what is an acceptable refresh rate and not a denial of service attack.

 

2) bots.

i dont think pulling info from bots should require me to inform anyone.

not more than i have to "inform" the site im pulling info from, or just surfing it with the browser of my choise.

as for bots, its not different then if i just do a quick survey of bots once a few hours via my regular client.

what bots and how many the bot will query will probably change as bots get added or removed (but note: my bot functionality remains the same!)

this also make it impossible to ask for permission from ALL of the bots ill want to query.

 

3) whos online.

same as number 1. i doubt if there is such a restriction as i could very well use multiple (rotating) obscure web proxies (*gasp*) to pull that info.

again, i trust to know what is a reasonable interval...

i think people probably refresh via browser more than my bot will ever do.

 

i really think we should differentiate between functionality and the dynamic data that WILL CHANGE over time. dont you?

i cant possibly think of all the sources of data i will query (in game or from external sites) beforehand.

is this a problem?

i see nothing wrong with changing just the xml file of my bot to get this or that url. as i said, the functionality remains the same.

 

Also please note this thread and posts in it, are not in anyway considered official requests or permissions for you to do anything on a bot. You must do a formal bot application.

 

yes. the proper channels, i know. ill read the documentation, have a look at the test server trying a few extremely simple things and then ill see...

although, it is strange how nothing around here is "official"

someone told me here i am overreacting, but on the other hand, you people seem rather uptight about questions...

like everyone that inquires into this subject is looking to hack/cheat/kill

quite the contrary, im looking to improve my personal experience* and later on for the guild or even for the whole EL community.

 

*like who is online, which btw is already a php script on my server the pulls that info for me only.

hope it doesnt get me in trouble for refreshing (once every 2 minutes approx) and parsing by #guild_list, something acceptable and very much irrelevant for the site owner. heck, i could even cron wget to get the list for me.

like i said, from my experience, people probably refresh more via browser.

the only difference with a bot is that it will pm me the info.

thats all.

all this is such a long "negotiation" over something so simple and harmless really... sigh...

[Learner]

thanks again.

but no need to repeat things for the 3rd time, twice is quite enough for me

also, despite i may seem a little disoriented, i am not a 12 y/o kid

 

The problem is if you add new features, you could be exceeding what your bot is approved for and possibly breaking the bot rules. We've already had several bots have their features expanded beyond acceptable levels and sometimes have locked the bots until they are fixed.

 

Even if you think something is already done with other bots, you still need to declare it and get approval for your bot.

 

Again, you are NOT allowed to add things to an approved bot that you did not apply for, without specific approval, no matter how small or unimportant you think the change is.

 

IF, IF ill consider changes at a later time, i will request approval again. its quite clear from previous replies.

no problem there as far as i can see. please correct me if im wrong.

 

I also think there are restrictions on pulling information from the who's online page, you will definitely need to have more specific information when you apply, such as how frequently your bot will be doing that. Other pages and sites might also have restrictions. Also I would recommend you get permission from the other bot owners and site owners to have information pulled from their bots and sites.

 

1) sites.

i dont think a permission is needed as long as the material is not copyrighted or reproduction for personal use is restricted.

i also trust myself enough, after years of working as a sysadmin, to know what is an acceptable refresh rate and not a denial of service attack.

 

2) bots.

i dont think pulling info from bots should require me to inform anyone.

not more than i have to "inform" the site im pulling info from, or just surfing it with the browser of my choise.

as for bots, its not different then if i just do a quick survey of bots once a few hours via my regular client.

what bots and how many the bot will query will probably change as bots get added or removed (but note: my bot functionality remains the same!)

this also make it impossible to ask for permission from ALL of the bots ill want to query.

 

3) whos online.

same as number 1. i doubt if there is such a restriction as i could very well use multiple (rotating) obscure web proxies (*gasp*) to pull that info.

again, i trust to know what is a reasonable interval...

i think people probably refresh via browser more than my bot will ever do.

 

i really think we should differentiate between functionality and the dynamic data that WILL CHANGE over time. dont you?

i cant possibly think of all the sources of data i will query (in game or from external sites) beforehand.

is this a problem?

i see nothing wrong with changing just the xml file of my bot to get this or that url. as i said, the functionality remains the same.

 

Also please note this thread and posts in it, are not in anyway considered official requests or permissions for you to do anything on a bot. You must do a formal bot application.

 

yes. the proper channels, i know. ill read the documentation, have a look at the test server trying a few extremely simple things and then ill see...

although, it is strange how nothing around here is "official"

someone told me here i am overreacting, but on the other hand, you people seem rather uptight about questions...

like everyone that inquires into this subject is looking to hack/cheat/kill

quite the contrary, im looking to improve my personal experience* and later on for the guild or even for the whole EL community.

 

*like who is online, which btw is already a php script on my server the pulls that info for me only.

hope it doesnt get me in trouble for refreshing (once every 2 minutes approx) and parsing by #guild_list, something acceptable and very much irrelevant for the site owner. heck, i could even cron wget to get the list for me.

like i said, from my experience, people probably refresh more via browser.

the only difference with a bot is that it will pm me the info.

thats all.

all this is such a long "negotiation" over something so simple and harmless really... sigh...

With an attitude like that, I think you'll find your bot would not get approval or get it banned. Attitude on how you get approval for your bot also reflects on whether or not you can be trusted to run your bot as you've declared. Don't assume because of your previous experiance as a sysadmin that what you plan on doing will be acceptable to the places you will be pulling from for example.

 

sites: assume all sites are copyrighted and get their approval. Even if copyright isn't an issue you'll want to talk to them about how often you get data from them. If you pull too frequently, they might just ban you for excess load.

 

bots: getting their permission and EL's permission for how often you access them is important because of the bandwidth and load that applies. You might also find those bots might blacklist you just because you weren't kind enough to ask their permission.

 

who's online: Entropy has stated in the past limits on people access the who's online which are there so that bandwidth and server load dont affect the game.

[zalmox]

i think you are assuming too much, misreading me, and taking my previous thoughts to an extreme.

Not to mention perhaps just a tiny bit patronising. Or at least that my [miss]understanding of your last post.

 

With an attitude like that, I think you'll find your bot would not get approval or get it banned. Attitude on how you get approval for your bot also reflects on whether or not you can be trusted to run your bot as you've declared.

 

perhaps you should take the time to fully explain what about my attitude bugs you.

The issues in you post are kind of taking my statements to an extreme as i mention before.

And in my opinion i have been quite clear and polite here.

Trusted to run a bot? That sound just a tiny bit patronising.

Its a game, not a nuclear silo afaik.

 

Of course ill follow the etiquette as much as i can but surely your suggestion of contacting every single person that my decision might affect is unrealistic even for someone like mother Theresa (may god rest her soul )

its simply not done on such a scale, especially if my sources change frequently.

I do wonder however why is such a simple task treated like a meanness to world peace or something...

shrug

Bad experience in the past i guess.

 

Also, you are wrongly assuming that polling a web site once every few hours or even once every half an hour needs any approval. I can certainly tell you (yes, from my experience) that such a permission is not required.

 

as i mention above, querying a bot every few hours should not be a problem. its not distinguishable from a user really.

 

Of course i will try to contact the owner first, but seeing as there are always new bots and bots with a short lifespan i hardly can reach everyone of them. After all, it really isnt supposed to be my day job but rather a fun project to work on in my spare time.

 

you also make this sound rather bureaucratic, which i think is a major bummer for me...

i might just drop it if i have to invest so much time for a simple harmless task and ask EVERYONE for approving my actions down to the tiniest detail. thats just unreasonable imo

[Torg]

Of course i will try to contact the owner first, but seeing as there are always new bots and bots with a short lifespan i hardly can reach everyone of them. After all, it really isnt supposed to be my day job but rather a fun project to work on in my spare time.

 

you also make this sound rather bureaucratic, which i think is a major bummer for me...

i might just drop it if i have to invest so much time for a simple harmless task and ask EVERYONE for approving my actions down to the tiniest detail. thats just unreasonable imo

You should probably have posted this before such a strong response to others comments. This is not meant to be hard, however we are warning you about problems you *might* come across. I would suggested this advice wise to listen to. To sum up the rest of my response, our advise is not to assume anything and to ask first.

 

Your attitude in response to all this advice is strange. We are not telling you you don't know what you are talking about, but we are telling you what has happened in the game before, and is likely to occur again. We are trying to help, but it seems you don't want help. I am inclined to let you find out the hard way, but I shan't. I'll try to make this as clear as possible.

 

i think you are assuming too much, misreading me, and taking my previous thoughts to an extreme.

Not to mention perhaps just a tiny bit patronising. Or at least that my [miss]understanding of your last post.

No, it's simply a case of you don't know enough about how things happen here as I'll explain...

 

Of course ill follow the etiquette as much as i can but surely your suggestion of contacting every single person that my decision might affect is unrealistic even for someone like mother Theresa (may god rest her soul )

There are bot owners that check their logs and will #ignore anyone that requests info too regularly. It has been done before, so it is suggested that you ask if you are going to make regular requests for information, otherwise you might find your information coming up short.

 

Also, you are wrongly assuming that polling a web site once every few hours or even once every half an hour needs any approval. I can certainly tell you (yes, from my experience) that such a permission is not required.

lol... This is amusing. Learner is not talking about normal websites and things, he is talking about this one. Sure, under normal circumstances something like that does not require approval, but Ent has a habit of locking anyone that does something he doesn't like. As Learner said, Ent has already stated what the limits on access the who's online pages are. If you don't compily he will eventually notice and simply block your traffic. This is based on past experience so I don't understand why you think it won't happen to you.

[zalmox]

i apologise if my response was strange, it wasnt my intention to sound harsh.

thank you all again for clearing up some issues.

ill certainly take all advice to heart.