Economy - Formula fix

[darky]

I am not commenting on economy, but i have some formula change suggestion.

This changes are solely to compensate for current valuation.

1. Fire Essence

Items needed:

1 Red Snapdragons

1 Red Rose

1 Sulfur

Change to:

1 Red Snapdragons

1 Red Rose

3 Sulfur

 

2. Water Essence

Items needed:

1 Blue Quartz

1 Blue Star Flower

1 Blue Lupine

1 Sapphire

Change to:

1 Blue Quartz

1 Red Quartz

1 Blue Star Flower

1 Blue Lupine

(removed 1 Sapphire)

3. Iron Sword

Items needed:

10 Iron Bars

1 Steel Bar

2 Fire Essences

Changed to:

6 Iron Bars

1 Steel Bar

2 Fire Essences

 

4. Iron Broad Sword

Items needed:

12 Iron Bars

2 Steel Bars

3 Fire Essence

Changed to:

8 Iron Bars

2 Steel Bars

3 Fire Essences

 

 

There are some other possible changes. but these few changes can be put in to try out how it impacts the gameplay.

 

Thx,

Darky

[Cycloonx]

Why more sulfur in in fire essences? Iron/steel bars need a lot of them, and we need fire essences for almost everything.

 

And pls don't make more different posts since this is said like 10 times in that big topic. I think we need someone to make a summary with links and ideas to the exact post. Not everyone making new topics with all different ideas. The idea of using less bars is a good idea, but it doesn't fit in the idea of lowering the mass production.

[darky]

Why more sulfur in in fire essences? Iron/steel bars need a lot of them, and we need fire essences for almost everything.

 

And pls don't make more different posts since this is said like 10 times in that big topic. I think we need someone to make a summary with links and ideas to the exact post. Not everyone making new topics with all different ideas. The idea of using less bars is a good idea, but it doesn't fit in the idea of lowering the mass production.

 

Thx for reply.

 

I am not making any change or discussion for economy fix. I am simply making a change that reflect value for end product in line with item used to make it.

 

1. Fire ess are worth morth than item used in this case. Needing more sulphur will compenste that.

2. Water ess are not made enough. Changing sapphire to red quartz will change that.

3. Sword will use less bar. So making them will not make people go broke.

 

Also just 4 changes that can be doable and put into game without changing game balance drastically.

 

Thx,

Darky

[Knuckles]

How will it make the price of swords less?

 

You need FE's to make Bars, and your making the price of FE's go up.. That's going to ahceive alot, grats.

[darky]

How will it make the price of swords less?

 

You need FE's to make Bars, and your making the price of FE's go up.. That's going to ahceive alot, grats.

 

Well. Quite possible but observation is that margin in FE is more. More sulphur will bridge the gap and price will not rise.

Also iron bar is costly componant and using less number of bar will improve that.

 

And most important just 4 changes that can be used to identify the overall impact. This can be a pilot to gauge the outcome for broader changes.

 

Thx

Darky

Edited April 29, 2006 by darky

[carone]

How will it make the price of swords less?

 

You need FE's to make Bars, and your making the price of FE's go up.. That's going to ahceive alot, grats.

 

Well. Quite possible but observation is that margin in FE is more. More sulphur will bridge the gap and price will not rise.

Also iron bar is costly componant and using less number of bar will improve that.

 

And most important just 4 changes that can be used to identify the overall impact. This can be a pilot to gauge the outcome for broader changes.

 

Thx

Darky

 

First of all I don't see how changing the formula of FE's which are probably the most used item in the whole game can be considered a small change.

 

And why do you say there aren't enough WE's?

I really don't think the problem of crafting is the WE's. The ring formulas and lack of more different and most importantly more useful medallions for example is much more of a problem than the WE's, imo.

 

Maybe you could explain what exactly you hope these changes will do or can do to improve the situation because I honestly simply don't see the exact point of your suggested formula changes.

[darky]

How will it make the price of swords less?

 

You need FE's to make Bars, and your making the price of FE's go up.. That's going to ahceive alot, grats.

 

Well. Quite possible but observation is that margin in FE is more. More sulphur will bridge the gap and price will not rise.

Also iron bar is costly componant and using less number of bar will improve that.

 

And most important just 4 changes that can be used to identify the overall impact. This can be a pilot to gauge the outcome for broader changes.

 

Thx

Darky

 

First of all I don't see how changing the formula of FE's which are probably the most used item in the whole game can be considered a small change.

 

And why do you say there aren't enough WE's?

I really don't think the problem of crafting is the WE's. The ring formulas and lack of more different and most importantly more useful medallions for example is much more of a problem than the WE's, imo.

 

Maybe you could explain what exactly you hope these changes will do or can do to improve the situation because I honestly simply don't see the exact point of your suggested formula changes.

 

 

1. Idea is to make input and out put of formula more competitive.

2. FE valuation is more than input hence change in input for 2 extra sulphur. Will it make FE costlier? No. It is produced in mass quantity. The supply will still hold, only margins will shrink. Also should it be 2 sulphur or 3 sulphur. I think 3 sulphur but to begin with 2 sulhur may be used.

3. Most people find sapphire in short supply making Water Ess hard to make. Made it simpler by changing to red quartz.

 

Also the idea is to make small changes that can make input and output valuation more inline.

 

Thx.

Darky

[Mr.Mind]

Decrease the profits by altering fes formula - decreases money made by players.

 

Increase amount of wes by making the ingredients easier to get - lowers cost of end crafting items (btw rose quartz doesn't seem to fit with we)

 

How would these changes make the market any more competitive than it is? Small changes are generally for small problems.

[darky]

Idea is to match input output price match. For FE, fe is worth more than input and for WE input is not common.

Again these are simple change to get things going. I do not wish to make drastic changes and things can be tweaked further if changes are getting the economy going positively.

 

The whole idea is to match costs so people make things with equal incentive.

Edited April 29, 2006 by darky

[carone]

Idea is to match input output price match. For FE, fe is worth more than input and for WE input is not common.

Again these are simple change to get things going. I do not wish to make drastic changes and things can be tweaked further if changes are getting the economy going positively.

 

The whole idea is to match costs so people make things with equal incentive.

 

I've said it before that I'm all for lowering the cost of ring building(I mean the final ring product, not simple gold and silver rings), but the WE really isn't the problem, imo.

A slight change in WE formula and a resulting small change in its price means a price change for useable rings of what, 1% if even that? Sorry, but that's not gonna do it. That's not a small step that's no change at all. The crafting market doesn't need tweaking it needs a jump-start.

[darky]

Well, i understand crafting needs fixing, but these are just 4 items picked from top and to start with these may open a roadmap for fixing further things.

Darky

[CelticLady]

You said:

"2. FE valuation is more than input hence change in input for 2 extra sulphur. Will it make FE costlier? No. It is produced in mass quantity. The supply will still hold, only margins will shrink. Also should it be 2 sulphur or 3 sulphur. I think 3 sulphur but to begin with 2 sulhur may be used."

 

Maybe I am not understanding you correctly, but how will the cost of FE not go up? Adding two more sulphur will raise the cost to make a single FE by 4gc. And that alone would raise the cost to make a ti bar by 28gc(iirc ti bar requires 7FE, I haven't made one in awhile so it could be less).

 

Like others have said, I don't think that too few WE is the problem with crafting. And why would it be hard to get sapphires(I currently have about 8k sapps sitting in my storage)? Beacause the book to mine them costs 10k? Well, if you are getting into crafting then you should have some extra gc to throw around anyways because you can't get a fast ROI.

 

As for lowering the amount of bars used for low level swords, yes it would bring the cost more in line with market selling price. But the problem is still that there isn't much demand for them.

 

You said that your post wasn't about fixing the economy, but by trying to adjust formulas to better match selling price you are in effect trying to do just that. I understand what you meant(i think), but it is still basically the same.

 

Like I said, I may not be fully understanding what you are trying to convey. This is just my 2cents on it.

Edited April 30, 2006 by CelticLady

[darky]

I understand that effort is in progress in other thread to do major improvements to economy. In this one I am just identifying 4 item where a change in formula can bring about balance of input and output.

 

1. FE - Everyone agree that the margin in FE making is much more than other things where you loose gc. So a small change can bridge the gap.

2. WE - "Sapphire are not in same league". I picked it up going through other post and decided any thing available at same level should fix.

 

Also idea here is minor changes to bring item in sync with prices. This can be done other way by changing prices but I just opted for formula changes as Entropy was looking for.

 

Now if my formula are best. No. It is just a start. Let us stick to these 4 items and see what best formula can be done.

 

This will help in long term to create a strategy for fixing the other formula.

Now what to do with end products, the discussion is on going in the longer thread and we will have some solution.

 

Darky

Edited April 30, 2006 by darky

[CelticLady]

I understand that effort is in progress in other thread to do major improvements to economy. In this one I am just identifying 4 item where a change in formula can bring about balance of input and output.

 

1. FE - Everyone agree that the margin in FE making is much more than other things where you loose gc. So a small change can bridge the gap.

2. WE - "Sapphire are not in same league". I picked it up going through other post and decided any thing available at same level should fix.

 

Also idea here is minor changes to bring item in sync with prices. This can be done other way by changing prices but I just opted for formula changes as Entropy was looking for.

 

Now if my formula are best. No. It is just a start. Let us stick to these 4 items and see what best formula can be done.

 

This will help in long term to create a strategy for fixing the other formula.

Now what to do with end products, the discussion is on going in the longer thread and we will have some solution.

 

Darky

 

Ok, still not getting where you are coming from on the FE issue. I certainly don't agree that margins on FE's are much more than other things. If you buy the ingreds to make them then you are paying 2.5-3gc per FE they sell on market for 3gc each. Adding additional sulphur to the formula raises the base cost to 6.5-7gc per. Sulphur usually sells on market for around 2gc each, sometimes alittle less. In my opinion FE and WE don't need a change in formulas to be in line with market price. Not to mention that changing the formula/cost for an item that is used to make other items also ultimately changes the formula/cost of those other items as well.

 

I commend you for trying to answer Entropy's question from the other thread(perhaps your original post should have gone on that thread, but I understand you didn't want it burried in the off-topic swing that thread went on). I just personally don't agree with your proposed formula changes for FE and WE.

[Longsh0t]

It is a good idea to change the formulas, but you have to take in to consideration a few more factors and take carefull steps to change them.

 

In designing the new formulas, these four factors are important:

1. Production Time
   
2. Components
   
3. Experience
   
4. Minimum profit from NPC per hour
   A note on the profit from the NPC: this is to set a basic price floor. It can be removed if the drops on monsters are changed (see the long economy thread for more info). But I'm not going to discuss that here.
   

Some guidlines to create the new formulas:

• Lowest level items should give the lowest minimum profit from the NPC p/h
  
• Production times should be alot higher, since we want to combat the massproduction
  
• The experience per hour should slightly increase for higher levels
  
• Try to change the components as little as possible
  

Keeping in mind all of these things will enable you to make a very balanced economy.

 

A few examples using these rules:

Fire Essence

Production time: 3 seconds

Components: 1 Sulfur, 1 Red Snapdragon, 1 Red Rose

Experience: 10

Minimum profit from NPC per hour: 1.200 gc*

 

Iron Sword

Production time: 180 seconds

Components: 2 Fire Essence, 10 Iron Bars, 1 Steel bar

Experience: 1.500

Minimum profit from NPC per hour: 1.750 gc*

 

----------

* You can also calculate the rough profit per item from this (combined with the basic costs it will give you the NPC buying price):

FE:

One can make 3600 / 3 = 1.200 FE's per hour. The profit per hour is 1.200 gc, so the profit per FE should be ~1 gc.

Iron Sword

One can make 3600 / 180 = 20 Swords per hour. THe profit per hour is 1.750 gc, so the profit per Iron Sword should be ~ 1.750 / 20 = 88 gc

Edited April 30, 2006 by Longsh0t

[darky]

The cost I am taking into account is the price you get from NPC.

Hence I used sulphur value as .6 not 2. Also FE valuation to sell to NPC is 3gc. Based on these number the margin in FE is too high and needs tweaking. The final formula still needs a small margin left in FE.

Now most importantly. Do we agree the margin on FE are more than other items or not. This is based on only valuation from NPC, as this is the only fix valuation available

Another interesting factor is that increased input will subject FE to market forces and NPC value will act only as bottom line prices as the market based economy should do.

Darky

 

<edit>

 

Also in my opinion the value of sulphur is 2 as the downline item has large margin there by pushing valuation artificially high. Reducing FE margin will bring Sulphur value down in line with other input items.

-Darky

Edited April 30, 2006 by darky

[Thordin]

Fire essence is starting alchemy item and it should not be changed this way. It's hard for newbies to obtain sulfur, and sulfur is worth those 2gc (heavy for newbies (low P/C) and far from storage). The problem don't lie in FE formula.

[darky]

I have been answering and justfying my statement for long enough.

Do not people read the statement above.

Sulphur is worth .6 gc as paid by NPC.

FE is overvalued.

[Longsh0t]

darky, you forget the most important factor of them all: time.

 

Sulfur is heavy and the storage is not very near, thus people dont harvest it alot. The 2gc per sulfur is a result of the market system.

 

I've looked into the formulas & production times alot, and let me tell you a funny thing that I've noticed: Spend 1 hour harvesting ANY kind of resource and you will roughly make 2.000 gc. Throughout months of producing FEs, people found that making ~2k gc harvesting sulfur is reasonable in comparison to harvesting other resources.

 

If sulfur would be worth 0.6 gc, noone would harvest it, because that would mean that they would make less that 1.000 GC per hour.

 

FE is overvalued.

I say that EVERY other (higher level) item is undervalued

[darky]

Your observation may be correct, on the other hand there is a artificial bottom line price that is FE = 3gc. Now if x sulphur is used for maknig 1 FE than Sulphur becomes around (3-y)/x. (flower cost is y) with 1 sulphur used it is worth 2 gc. 2 sulphur used will bring down price to worth 1 gc and 3 sulphur to around .7 gc. My take is if there are NPC prices then formula should be in sync with those prices. Leaving aside all the other things my suggestions are simply to correct economic anamoly.

 

Again adopting these changes should make all item at equal footing rather than giving unfair advantage for FE making or sulphur harvesting.

 

Also if everyone can look for positive outcome from these changes then only we may hope for making changes that are possible to fix overall economy.

 

Yes these changes will not be convenient for any one using these for making 100 k gc - Just quoting from other thread.

 

Let us join in and support the changes so that some thing may get going.

If the formula need tweaking than give positive feedback and we can identify better formula. Just calling this formula is not good is not helping.

 

"FE are overvalued" - and this is not my statement.

"FE has more margins" - again not my statement but I have verified the same using prices NPC will buy stuff.

 

I hope we can make progress on this.

Darky

Edited April 30, 2006 by darky

[CelticLady]

The cost I am taking into account is the price you get from NPC.

Hence I used sulphur value as .6 not 2. Also FE valuation to sell to NPC is 3gc. Based on these number the margin in FE is too high and needs tweaking. The final formula still needs a small margin left in FE.

Now most importantly. Do we agree the margin on FE are more than other items or not. This is based on only valuation from NPC, as this is the only fix valuation available

Another interesting factor is that increased input will subject FE to market forces and NPC value will act only as bottom line prices as the market based economy should do.

Darky

 

<edit>

 

Also in my opinion the value of sulphur is 2 as the downline item has large margin there by pushing valuation artificially high. Reducing FE margin will bring Sulphur value down in line with other input items.

-Darky

 

Ok, now I see that you are only taking into account the price that NPC will pay for the items. Well, to only look at that part of the equation is folly. It is very easy to look at those prices at face value, but to ignore the entire scheme of things that it will affect just doesn't make sense. Entropy asked for formula/price change opinions to help with the economy. For you to offer proposed formula changes without taking the whole economy into consideration just doesn't work. Lowering the profit margin on FE by only using the NPC prices doesn't work in practice. It changes the price of FE on market and in doing so changes the price of every item that uses FE in its production.

 

Just making that one change to FE formula would cause alot of other changes to happen. That fact can't be ignored. Either the price of FE will more than double or it would stay roughly the same and the price of sulphur would drop drastically. If the price of sulphur dropped then ppl would stop harving it as Longshot stated. If the price of sulphur stayed the same and the price of FE jumped then the people who do buy it would stop buying and would harv their own sulphur and make their own FE.

 

All items that use FE anywhere in their equation would jump in production cost. Production times would increase dramatically as it would take much longer to harv the sulphur for FE's. That in itself would help with overproduction, but I think in a potentially negative way.

 

As ThordinElement stated also, FE is beginning Alch.It is also the first step to getting new players off the lupine/lilac addiction and into market. If you triple the sulphur requirement then it will take them all that much longer to get started in Alch and off the flower runs.

 

There are probably at least a few other things that one proposed change would also affect, but those are what come to mind at the moment. To ignore them just doesn't make sense in my opinion. I know you didn't want to get into the whole economy discussion, but your proposed changes affect the economy.

[darky]

 

Ok, now I see that you are only taking into account the price that NPC will pay for the items.

<snip>

 

Just making that one change to FE formula would cause alot of other changes to happen. That fact can't be ignored. Either the price of FE will more than double or it would stay roughly the same and the price of sulphur would drop drastically. If the price of sulphur dropped then ppl would stop harving it as Longshot stated. If the price of sulphur stayed the same and the price of FE jumped then the people who do buy it would stop buying and would harv their own sulphur and make their own FE.

<snip>

 

 

1. Correct the NPC prices.

2. Yes all possibility can happen and I also identified that only additional attraction of FE making will go down. It will not disappear. As such FE making can be used to make 100k in short time is enough example. People that make FE will still make it. But higher level people will be making higher level Ess instead of FE if the formula is fixed.

3. We need to mak some constructive progress on formula improvement or the whole exercise will be useless.

 

Darky

[Guest Mithnaur]

Time. EFFORT. Oh yes, pain when MN is just mad at you. Breaking your gloves.

3 Sulphur in FE makes it 3 times longer to make one yourself. Darky, try to think about it... you work 3 times longer and get paid same amount of money? A heaven for all the Big Bosses - 'you will work 24h/day and forget about better payment - it stays same as before!' - would you like it?

Well, you are talking about SELLING to NPC's. Try BUYING from them - 15gc per FE, 6gc per sulphur. Good Luck selling it for 3gc after you buy sulphur form Harvy(x3 = 18gc). Think of that too.

To make FE - a starting and most useful essence; you need:

- money - even if market price of sulphur goes down to 1gc, selling for less wolud be virtual suicide for all newcomers. Who is enough mentally sick to buy it from Harvy anyway?!

You're out of 3gc. (x3 sulphur)

- time - and thats 3 times longer if you put 3 sulphur instead of 1, making it this way: you will break 3 times more gloves and this is wasted gc, you will have to heal yourself 3 times more than usual - thats a cost in potions/essences if you're using magic(or time even with Fast Regeneration).

 

Sum it up - price of FE after adding 3 sulphur MUST go up. If market price of s. goes down to 1gc, to make a proift, when you will harvest flowers yourself it will cost 4/5 gc adding to total cost of bars, even more to things that you create from bars. Remember you are not perfect and at least from time to time you will destroy ingredients when making bar/bars when making weapon(/ring/armor etc).

 

And try selling it ot magic store NOW for 3gc... actually you wont earn almost anything for your time...

 

It is more a money sink not a solution

 

About WE i have little to say, usually you start your crafting skill by making those rings(oh crap, MORE bars...), but changing sapphire to quartz will let newcomers making orders for crafters. But this skill is money sink for a looong time(and you won't get millions from it even if high-leveled... or maybe i'm too lazy to see it)

 

Swords - with changes you could even get some small profit... but they won't be in demand on market channel.

 

Sorry for all my errors:)

 

Regards

Mithnaur

[darky]

Time. EFFORT. Oh yes, pain when MN is just mad at you. Breaking your gloves.

3 Sulphur in FE makes it 3 times longer to make one yourself. Darky, try to think about it... you work 3 times longer and get paid same amount of money? A heaven for all the Big Bosses - 'you will work 24h/day and forget about better payment - it stays same as before!' - would you like it?

Well, you are talking about SELLING to NPC's. Try BUYING from them - 15gc per FE, 6gc per sulphur. Good Luck selling it for 3gc after you buy sulphur form Harvy(x3 = 18gc). Think of that too.

To make FE - a starting and most useful essence; you need:

- money - even if market price of sulphur goes down to 1gc, selling for less wolud be virtual suicide for all newcomers. Who is enough mentally sick to buy it from Harvy anyway?!

You're out of 3gc. (x3 sulphur)

- time - and thats 3 times longer if you put 3 sulphur instead of 1, making it this way: you will break 3 times more gloves and this is wasted gc, you will have to heal yourself 3 times more than usual - thats a cost in potions/essences if you're using magic(or time even with Fast Regeneration).

 

Sum it up - price of FE after adding 3 sulphur MUST go up. If market price of s. goes down to 1gc, to make a proift, when you will harvest flowers yourself it will cost 4/5 gc adding to total cost of bars, even more to things that you create from bars. Remember you are not perfect and at least from time to time you will destroy ingredients when making bar/bars when making weapon(/ring/armor etc).

 

And try selling it ot magic store NOW for 3gc... actually you wont earn almost anything for your time...

 

It is more a money sink not a solution

 

About WE i have little to say, usually you start your crafting skill by making those rings(oh crap, MORE bars...), but changing sapphire to quartz will let newcomers making orders for crafters. But this skill is money sink for a looong time(and you won't get millions from it even if high-leveled... or maybe i'm too lazy to see it)

 

Swords - with changes you could even get some small profit... but they won't be in demand on market channel.

 

Sorry for all my errors:)

 

Regards

Mithnaur

 

How so much that I almost fully agree to you but

1. Do you also realize that using FE/sulphur valuation loophole people have made 100k?

2. Do you realize all the other item you make none is as profitable as FE? In fact most are loss making and I am referring to that based on player to NPC sale price.

3. Do you agree that Profit margin in FE is highest?

4. Also with change in sword formula they will still be loss making albeit a little less loss.

 

Now let us focus on these basic things. All people needing to make money can keep picking flower but looks like flowers will be gone soon.

What is incentive to make higher level Ess when FE gives you most profit?

 

Idea is not to upset the economy but streamline so that more changes can be brought in.

Also to make higher level items comparable to lower level item.

 

Last but not the least, how about making a suggestion on formula and based on player to NPC selling prices to bring better harmony.

 

Thx

Darky

[Longsh0t]

1. Do you also realize that using FE/sulphur valuation loophole people have made 100k?

In what time span? 1 day? a week? months?

 

 

2. Do you realize all the other item you make none is as profitable as FE? In fact most are loss making and I am referring to that based on player to NPC sale price.

Then we should focus more on those other items and bring them in balance with the GC / hour and the level required to make the item

 

 

3. Do you agree that Profit margin in FE is highest?

Profit margins are worthless unless you specify the production time. A profit margin of 100k with a production time of a full year is pretty worthless.

 

 

What is incentive to make higher level Ess when FE gives you most profit?

Exactly.

 

My 2 cents: You need to concentrate your toughts on the entire system, not just the FEs. Look at the whole production chain and then start messing with all the formulas,exp,etc.