Jump to content
Eternal Lands Official Forums
Entropy

Fixing some of the economy

Recommended Posts

Hi to all.

 

Here is a copy & paste of a post i made in suggestions forum at the begining of this year.

 

*****************************************************************

 

Well I have an Idea of how to implement a system to dinamize prices.

 

Here it is.

 

First lets make a few consideratons.

 

 

1. What elements should define the prices of the items?

Base cost modified by supply and demand (lets analyze this later)

 

1. What "kind" of items exists in EL?

A. Harvestable items no knowledge required

B. Harvestable items knowledge required (Minables items)

C. Manufactured or Alchemy made items knowledge and other materials required.

 

2. What is the Base cost of items?

Base cost is the cost needed to harvest or produce the item, and could be determined by:

A. Work hour cost * time to produce

B. Work hour cost * knowledge needed * time to produce

C. (Work hour cost * knowledge needed * time to produce) + Prime Materials cost

 

Thus A and B could be grouped in B if knowledge to produce = 1 in the case of no knowledge needed.

 

The knowledge needed could be directly tied to the recomended exp level. (minimum = 1 for no knowledge needed)

 

The Work hour cost could be directly tied to the skill needed to produce (harvest, alchemy, crafting, manufacturing, potion), and to the cost of the related book. (as a multipliying factor)

 

3. How we could Make variable the availability of Harvested or Mined Items? (now they are infinite!!!)

 

A stock could be set up in every harvest or mining zone.

Also a grow rate should be defined (how many new units per second this zone grow)

A Harvest or mine speed hould be defined (how much time is needed to spend to mine an unit, or units mined / harvested per second)

 

The grow speed should be lower than the harvest / minig speed, because the grow is constant and the Harvest / Mining is variabe in function of the players use of this resource. Also several players could be mining or harvesting the same resource.

 

With this, the players will need to go to alternate resources when the stock goes to low.

 

Also market prices for this items should raise when the availability is low.

 

 

Note that the Total Available for a Harvested or Mined items should be calculated whit the units in the players or storages, not in the harvesting or minig zones.

 

4. How we transform this base cost in market price?

 

The market price is not determined by the production cost. Is determined by supply and demand (taking in consideration the base cost), but could be under or upper this base cost.

 

Supply and demand could be determined by availability. by making availibility a variable factor, we could dinamize the prices.

 

The NPC could calculate the selling price of an item taking in consideration:

- The Total Available of this item

- His stock of this item

- The base cost of this item.

- The "kind" of item.

 

The NPC don't need to calculate all this factors for each transaction:

 

The total Available could be calculated in a daily basis and used for all NPCs during this day.

His available stock should be evaluated in every transaction.

 

NPC Stock / Total Available = % Market Share

 

The base cost of an item is a fixed value (an ideal value for each item), thus no calc needed.

 

The kind of item could mark the base % of profit for each item, for example:

Harvest items = 100 %

Alchemy items = 150 %

Potion Items = 150%

Manufactured Items = 180%

Crafted Items = 220 %

 

(this values are only examples and should be balanced).

 

Also we can make this more variable by calculating the Total available in a map zone basis, this would make diferent prices for each map. Hey you could become a merchant buying in one market at low prices and selling in a market at high price!!!.

 

If this approach is taken, the storage items should count as availability in every map zone.

 

Finally lets take some examples:

 

Work hour costs:

 

Harvest = 1800 gc => 0,5 gc/second

Alchemy = 3600 gc => 1 gc/second

Potion = 3600 gc => 1 gc/second

Manufacturing = 7200 gc => 2 gc/second

Crafting = 14400 gc => 4 gc/second

 

Book Multipliers = research (minimun = 1000) / 1000

 

Knowledge needed = (level of knowledge + 1) / 10

 

 

base cost examples:

 

Red rose = 0,5 * 7 /10 = 0,35 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec)

Blue lupine = 0,5 * 2/10 = 0,1 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec)

Red SnapDragon = 0,5 * 1/10 = 0,05 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec)

 

Sulfur = 1 * 15 / 10 = 1,5 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec)

Iron Ore = 1 * 24 / 10 * 2000 / 1000 = 4,8 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec)

Coal = 1 * 22 / 10 = 2,2 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec)

 

Fire Essence = Red Rose (0,35) + Red Snapdragon (0,05) + Sulphur (1,5) + (1 * 1/10) = 2 gc (alchemy rate of 1 / sec)

 

Iron Bar = 3 Coal ( 6,6 gc ) + 2 Fire Essence ( 2gc ) + 7 Iron Ore ( 33,6 gc) + 2 * 23 /10 = 46,8 gc

( 2 secons to manu 1 bar)

 

 

NPC market prices:

 

 

Purchasing

Red Rose = 0,35 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 0,35 * (1+(20000/350000))= 0,37 gc

Total Amount of 350000 and NPC stock of 20000

 

Fire Essence = 2 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 2 * (1+(50000/320000)) = 2,31 gc

Total Amount of 320000 and NPC stock of 50000

 

Selling

Red Rose = 0,35 * 2 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 0,35 * 2 * (1+(20000/350000))= 0,74 gc

 

Fire Essence = 2 * 2,5 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 2 * 2,5 * (1+(50000/320000)) = 5.775

 

 

 

This could need some work to balance but will make the market very dinamic.

 

 

 

***********************************************************************

 

I also agree in reducing the monster drops to non manufacturable items, combine this with a system like described above and you get a powerfull economy system. This system will allow fluctuating prices and to estabilish markets.

 

Making the natural resources limited should be not too complex, developers only need to "store" 3 data for each resource (stock, grow rate and harvest rate)

 

 

Hope this help and makes me forget the lupines for ever :-D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, sorry for bringing a dead thread back to life. I would just like to share a few ideas that I didn't want to put in a new thread.

 

To fix the over supply of weapons and armor, which in turn is decreasing their value, I suggest 2 options:

 

 

(1) Cooldowns.

 

I don't know how many cuisses or greaves you can make in one hour as of now... but I am sure it is too many. Create a cooldown such that only 1 to 6 can be made (setting the max anywhere from 1 to 6, not the range as the max) Then alter the exp that is given for each such that it would still be equivalent, or close, to the exp you would have received if you had made them nonstop for a hour.

 

Possible Results

 

Supply will be significantly lower.

Ingredients will also increase in value, efe and bars etc. In my opinion most bars are too cheap at the moment.

Leveling manu skill will be somewhat easier

 

or...

 

(2) Create an exp cap for manufacturing.

 

Limit the exp for manufacturing items such that you only get exp for creating 1 to 6 (again, setting the max anywhere from 1 to 6) Players could still mass produce them, but they may be discouraged to do so after the max as they do not receive any additional manu experience until the new hour.

 

Possible Results

 

Supply will be lower

Ingredients remain the same in price or increase a little

Leveling manu skill may be a slower process

 

 

 

 

 

Again, I realize this may be nothing new, just wanted to put my ideas somewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Supply will be significantly lower.

Ingredients will also increase in value, efe and bars etc. In my opinion most bars are too cheap at the moment.

 

Nah, price will only lower because less ingreds are needed and there are too many bars on the market. That's why they sell so low.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Limiting the amount of xp that a single person can get from items will only increase the advantage of a guild of people who can all create those items for the full xp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't you think that manufacture has slow process already? It's one of the hardest skill. Limiting the production won't help IMO, you need to find some use to products, e.g. the swords are kinda useless these times except titlong and serp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that another thing that would greatly help the Economy is remove efe from the shop for a while, at least untill the prices go back up a bit so they are actually worth a little something, now they are nothing but another not-as-special item creation. I think this would be a good idea.

,Knight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that another thing that would greatly help the Economy is remove efe from the shop for a while, at least untill the prices go back up a bit so they are actually worth a little something, now they are nothing but another not-as-special item creation. I think this would be a good idea.

,Knight

 

Their value will increase again, with the new items.

But yeah, we might remove them from the shop for a while, in the future. Or increasing their price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People are already stocking up EFE's for the new itens, and EFE price should be already going up.

But one of the problems of the market in EL, is the prices "inertia".

For instance, monster drop rate for rare stuff was decreased. But if you go to market channel and ask for a price check on MM cloack people will tell you the price is 4.5-5k. Then some people will ask to buy MM cloacks for 4.5k, no one sells then they rise the price up to 6k when people sell it. :) Of course no one who said that price was the person who actually got any MM for sell (its hard to get one nowadays :mace: ).

But other people simply refuse to buy anything "overpriced".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

nvm the first idea..got suggested before ;p

 

second idea is getting rid of peace day (ye ye coincidence that it is peaceday right now..)

on peaceday every1 is going to do something productive instead of fighting.

so everyone will craft,harvest,manu,alch,potion and thus overflowing the market with all kinds of things for 6 hours long.

look in the caves atm more then 20 people there.. let's say everyone got a carry load of 600, that's 12000 ores leaving the cave every couple of minutes. (note that some people will have a higher carry load so lots more ore leaves the cave)

same goes for the other skills every1 starts producing so there will be huge item overflows. (alot of items not getting sold > price of that item gets reduced)

 

edit: note that i only checked in MM cave.. so there will be prolly more in CC

Edited by Hardcore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

second idea is getting rid of peace day

 

I think every skill has a "bad" day that prevents working on it (no harvest, no mix, no fight, etc). There's also "good" days (like Scholar's day, no knowledge needed, no drop, etc). I think the bottom line is: deal with it. :angry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

jup but no harvest/no mix makes market better cuz there will be less items flowing into the game then and thus making prices higher ^^

 

edit: typo

Edited by Hardcore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may have been said, I have not read all 11 pages, but how about making flowers only harvestable in spring, summer and fall seasons. Winter time the only place to get them is the flower shop. That in it's self would cause prices to rise and fall with the seasons. The argument could be said that people would just stock up, I don't know how long a season lasts, but a few weeks or a week even of no snaps or roses would cause the price of FE to clime, I know how fast I can burn through 1k of flowers. You do not have to adjust any prices, you just have to adjust the availability, the market will fix it's self. Flowers make the EL world go around. :icon13:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i cant say i have read all 11 pages, so forgive me some of this has been said.

 

It seems to be the problem with the ecconomy has its roots in the poor design and evolution of this game. Because of the no-cast ideas, anyone can do anything, this in turn may make people ask "why shouldent i do everything?", which in turn puts people that have been here for years at a hudge advantage. The game (from what i have read about el) then evolved into fighting. As it stands now, the entire el ecconomy revolves around fighting, and pk'ing in general. Where do most essences go? To killing, or healing youleslf so you can kill more, or just leveling up so you can kill more. Bars are mostly used for weapons and armor, and there is very little (almost nothing) for manufactures to make (i think) that dosent involve making weapons/amor, in fact it seems to be the only way to level up. As lots of said, some items are just to expensive to make (tit long), when monster drops for them are almost common. Its relatively easy to just say "forget about the rest of the weapons, ill just save up for the better weapons", better being tit long, or serp, unless you have lots of money for elementals. With tit longs so easy to get (costs about 1k, costs a lot more to make because it requires efe), anyone can make 1k in this game in a day, which makes all the lower weapons almost usless, the only thing keeping them from being worthless in trink (is that his name?).

 

To start with, make all tit items drops rare, anything that requires a enriched essence should be a rare drop (or just remove tit long from the drops all together, this might make a market for them, and people might start making them. If you change its formula so it dosent require a efe, then it could still make other weapons worthless as people would still use no weapon lower then a tit long).

 

Also, you need to make weapons and armor more worthless. As it stands, people like to kill others in games, probably because its illegal in reality, and in a game "its just a game, deal with it" mentality really comes out in people. I think the best way would be increase the rate at which items break. This rate should be dependent on the players, and their oponents, in terms of xp, and weapons used. For example, if you are a high level fighter in terms of attack, you should be able to break your oppenents stuff more easly. You should also be able to break their armor based on your current weapon (maybe also your xp), example: a axe, as its heavy, should be able to break armor more easly then a sword (in reality, heavy weapons like axes and hamers and whatnot are the best weapon against plate armor, it can also damage it by making dents, some dents just happen to kill whoevers inside). Swords, meanwhile, couldent have that bad effect on armor. If to expereienced people then decided to fight, (assuming their weapons and armor and everything else was the same), the chances that they will lose some object in the fight (or at least have it damaged) would be greater then two newbs in the same armor/weapons. This would make people who find it fun to go around killing think about what they really want to wear. Also, there exists a problem with the rosto stone. It seems to be so common, people can just walk around and fight anyone without a reason, after all, its not like they will lose anything they cant get back easly. The stone should be rarer to a point where its only use would be in wars, and not everyday "thats see who i can kill today" quests. Also, another stone could be added to negative the rosto stone. It should make the weapons and armor more rare, and hopefully turn people off geting the best gear, in favor of more cheap weapons. Also, i forgot, also base the breakage of weapons on the users current experence. If they are complete newb, their tit serps should break more then the same weapon wielded by a advanced user, assuming the people where only killing rabbits and not people/monsters with weapons/armor. This would make newbs want cheaper weapons they dont break as often. Also, all these breakage things should be stacked. As it stands, i think this would be the best way of trying to fix things without introducing new items, and with only slight modifications, seeing how items can already break, all that would be needed are some more advanced formulas besides a constand value (i assume el uses a constant value to determine breakage).

 

Also, i think it would be good to try and move el away from the pk attitude. As stated, almost all manufacturing and alchemy will eventially be used for the purpose of killing people, even if its only to level so it can be used for that purpose. There needs to be new outlets for the current skils, new items that can be made that are not used for fighting. Off the top of my head, only rings are not used for fighting (well, some are, but lots are teleports). I cant seem to think of any new items or uses, but i would say start with hammers and pickaxes, let manufactures make them. You could even make new hammers/pickaxes that more intermediate/advaced manufacturers could make. This would require making existing normal pickaxes break easly on harder harvesting. The new pickaxes would be like existing weapons "steel pickaxes" "tit pickaxe", etc, and would be able to withstand more harvesting hardness then its lesser counterparts. This would make "hard" harvestables like, i dont know, hard to harvest with a normal pickaxe, but easyer for a more advanced pickaxe. Or, if you dont like breaking pickaxes, you could have lesser pickaxes take longer with certian harvestables then a more advaced pickaxe. Possibly the same thing could be done for hammers, requiring better hammer to make better products.

 

I cant think of other manufacturable items right now, maybe someone can list some. Altho, having more manufacturable items would eventially lead to a slight problem with the existing manufacturing process. Eventially, you could get to a point where you cant tell what someone wants to make based only on what items they selected to mix, you would need a new way to select what item they wanted to make, possibly let them select the basic item, then use what ingredients they gave to detirme the final product, like select "sword" then use the ingredients window to input the materials for a iron sword, or a tit long, etc.

 

i really dont think there is anything anyone can do for the el ecconomy by only altering existing formulas. Its just that el is all about fighting when it gets down to it, and if you are not a fighter, odds are you make or gather goods, which in turn are probably used by fighters in the end. So i dont think its possible to fix the ecconomy without first fixing the gameplay, my first suggestion would help remove items, and make people think before fighting, the second suggestion is more geared to changing gameplay from mear fighting into something else, i cant think of anything else, which is why i cant think of new non-combat items.

 

While on the subject of gameplay, it could be intresting if magic and summoning could see more use, especially summoning. Maybe being able to summon animals to "sniff" out things? Also, being able to unsummon your own creatures, then being able to summon creatures that share your life (they exist forever (no timely health loss), but if they die, you die kind of a arrangment)? Maybe being being able to transform your charactor into animals? just some thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, so I got through most of the thread and here are my suggestions.

 

1. NO, we don't need LESS money in the circulation, we need MORE of it. The problem is that prices are falling, not rising, and that means that all suggestions concerning removing flower shops would do more harm than good. You withdraw money from the market to fight inflation (rising prices). To fight deflation (falling prices, which is what we are witnessing) one must increase the money supply. In my opinion, however, "flower money" has very little influence on the price level, because you can't make awesome amounts of gcs this way. It's extremely boring and takes a long time.

Another related thing are certain prices - CoM, CoL, new books (C2 rings etc). Their prices are ridiculous and after I bought all books for C2 rings I almost went broke. It means I have now less money to buy ingredients from lower-level players. Significant decreasing of, for example, book prices, should not influence the economy, because you would still require a certain level of experience to make things - which can only be gained by playing and actually doing stuff.

 

2. I really like the idea of monsters dropping more gold (well, gargs do). It has been pointed out that most of the production eventually is used in fighting. It means that the more gold fighters have, the more will they be able to spend to buy necessary things from players. Therefore, I suggest further increasing the amount of dropped gold (while decreasing item drops).

 

3. Item sinks. No gold sinks. You need to make a lot of junk (that is, basic, low-level stuff which is very rarely - if ever - bought - like iron swords, most C1 tele rings), but it costs money, hence, players get broke. It should be possible to sell "junk" to NPCs - at decent prices (ingredients cost + some margin; the more complicated an object is - the higher margin should be). Or introduce NPCs that give you, say, 10 000 attack exp for 100 iron swords.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good job in summarizing of problems. I agree with it in general.

 

Specific points I would like to point to.

- Even more gold drops, less MANUABLE ITEMS drops (capes are not manuable, so I would keep them as they are), from monsters so fighter won't be affected much by profit ratio while producers will have better chance of selling items.

 

- Almost no book drops from monster, why the hell we have NPC for anyway? This would require certain price tweaking. Fighters have storages stuffed with useless dropped books.

 

- Books have bit exaggerated price in certain cases, for example fluffy and chimeran summoning are way too expensive (but I have bought and read hem anyway I admit), gem mining books are good, gems should be rare, NPC axes prices are insane although it's rather more common drop.

 

-However NPC buying should be at margin prices of ingreds and almost with no profit, otherwise, we won't be interacting with each other via market.

 

- I like that idea of changing finished products into experience, it would give a opportunity for cooperation between players, since each of them needs oher experience gains. However, it must be tweaked very careffuly, otherwise, it will destablize the whole XP system. Let's say selling cap for each player, so certain player cannot gain more than let's say for example 50k of XP per in game day (number is just for example, it is nothing you should be arguing for).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead just some exp value, each item should give x% of current exp you have gained to skill. Just that for example the best way to begin summoning isn't donating 100 ELEs to NPC etc. Limit could be like 500 items per ingame day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mean like you donate 500 items to NPC and then have 300% XP bonus? And for how long? I am truly sorry, I can't understand this idea, please explain it more...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mean like you donate 500 items to NPC and then have 300% XP bonus? And for how long? I am truly sorry, I can't understand this idea, please explain it more...

Something like that exp value you get (permanently, for each item) is for example 0.01-1% of current total exp you have in skill (<-- it is link, click it :stare: ).

 

So for example if you have level 43 in manufacturing, you have 1116262 exp in skill. You donate 1 item that gives 1% bonus to it. You get 11162 experience (+rationality and god bonus?).

 

But, if you had level 1, you had 140 exp. So that item would give you just 14 exp. How this sould be solved? Maybe items should have maximum (and minimum) levels you can donate them at, and lower level items should give more percents?

Edited by ville-v

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I strongly agree with Mireille. If the game is going to be imbalanced, and it will be, I think it is far more enjoyable if we are all stupidly rich rather than stupidly poor.

 

How many players these days make a huge percentage og their gold at the blue lupine bushes?

 

Is this not a little silly for well developed characters?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mean like you donate 500 items to NPC and then have 300% XP bonus? And for how long? I am truly sorry, I can't understand this idea, please explain it more...

Something like that exp value you get (permanently, for each item) is for example 0.01-1% of current total exp you have in skill (<-- it is link, click it ;) ).

This is basically the same idea as having special training areas where you can mix thing for extra experience but you don't get to keep the resulting items. It's been talked about elsewhere (use search).

 

The idea of selling items for exp might be easier to implement that the other "special training area" idea. It would also help reduce the excess supply already in people's storage.

 

The negative sides is it's impossible to make sure the extra experience goes only to the person who made the item. Anyone could "buy experience" by selling stuff this way.

 

I think the special training areas is probably a better implementation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The negative sides is it's impossible to make sure the extra experience goes only to the person who made the item. Anyone could "buy experience" by selling stuff this way.

 

 

That's EXACTLY the point. That would stimulate trade between players. Some players manu stuff, other players buy it.

Edited by Mireille

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's wrong with "technically buying experience"?

I mean, you also invest in developing skill, you invest a lot, what is it, when it's not buying experience?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, so I got through most of the thread and here are my suggestions.

 

1. NO, we don't need LESS money in the circulation, we need MORE of it. The problem is that prices are falling, not rising, and that means that all suggestions concerning removing flower shops would do more harm than good. You withdraw money from the market to fight inflation (rising prices). To fight deflation (falling prices, which is what we are witnessing) one must increase the money supply. In my opinion, however, "flower money" has very little influence on the price level, because you can't make awesome amounts of gcs this way. It's extremely boring and takes a long time.

Another related thing are certain prices - CoM, CoL, new books (C2 rings etc). Their prices are ridiculous and after I bought all books for C2 rings I almost went broke. It means I have now less money to buy ingredients from lower-level players. Significant decreasing of, for example, book prices, should not influence the economy, because you would still require a certain level of experience to make things - which can only be gained by playing and actually doing stuff.

 

2. I really like the idea of monsters dropping more gold (well, gargs do). It has been pointed out that most of the production eventually is used in fighting. It means that the more gold fighters have, the more will they be able to spend to buy necessary things from players. Therefore, I suggest further increasing the amount of dropped gold (while decreasing item drops).

 

3. Item sinks. No gold sinks. You need to make a lot of junk (that is, basic, low-level stuff which is very rarely - if ever - bought - like iron swords, most C1 tele rings), but it costs money, hence, players get broke. It should be possible to sell "junk" to NPCs - at decent prices (ingredients cost + some margin; the more complicated an object is - the higher margin should be). Or introduce NPCs that give you, say, 10 000 attack exp for 100 iron swords.

How does increasing the money supply raise prices? The main driving factors of the costs of goods is competition ftom supplies, the player demand, and the cost needed to make them. An increased supply of money doesn't necessarily mean the price of things will go up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×