Fixing some of the economy

[Enyo]

Get rid of fleeing and players will buy weapons again. The only reason players "think" that they earn more exp without a weapon is because they are conditioned to think this way. The whole point is to keep the creature alive for as long as possible and to flee when it stops giving exp points and then start attacking again to start the experience meter anew...its like turning the hour glass over before the sand pours out. This is how players bypass the exp per creature limit on training attack/defense levels. There is no way to bypass the harvesting exp limit and there never was one for magic, manu, potions, crafting and summoning but the exp on those items per capita is low mainly because it requires much effort to gather, etc etc..

 

As I was saying players falsely think that by fleeing you gain more exp but truthfully that is only accurate with pvp training. With creatures I look at it more like how much exp gain per restore or srs. Some players gauge their exp based on time like per hour, etc.. Others measure it per monster or per oa or per attack or defense. It all basically adds up to the same exp at the end of the EL day.

 

Get rid of fleeing altogether and more players will buy dissengagement rings and weapons both.

 

Now, I'm gonna run and hide from half of EL.

 

 

PS I still stand by my previous suggestions such as cooldown on magic, reduce full restore to partial restore and place cooldown on all tools (borrowed from Learner) amoungst other suggestions.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Savyl

[Kedan]

Savyl: I do agree with you, but also lets say someone is fighting a monster with a weapon and because of the weapon they kill it in 4 hits, whereas with no weapon they kill it in 10 hits (all of which doesn't reach the exp limit whic i tihnk is around 14).

 

If the person kills it in 4 hits it means the monster only got to try to hit it 4 times (thats if we say the player hit on every attack they tryed) whereas with the 10 hits the monster had 10 chances to kill them.

 

So basicly it takes a little longer, but as you dont have to wait for the monster to respawn which normally takes the longest it is quicker.

 

Removing fleeing will help as most of the time when not using a weapon you do reach the exp cap, but it will only fix it a little bit

 

 

Mundaus: that is a good idea, the problem is people would rather gain exp and gc if they could, which is what most of the idea's are aimed to tryed to do. Whereas that splits up exp earning and gc earning. I will add it to my post though

[Enyo]

Kedan, if a player is killing a monster too quickly then he/she is free to use a weaker weapon or none at all and then when the exp stops can pull out a weapon for a quick kill. If they are too strong for the creature even without a weapon then its obvious that they need to move on to the next creature higher up on the AD monster chain.

 

As for solving the economy problems, lol.. I think you have read all of my previous posts suggesting cooldown on tools because most of the main problem with the economy is over production making the basic laws of supply and damand meaningless. I also suggested placing an exp cap on most everything if not everything. Also I recommended that we should have other healing spells besides 5hp/7hp and then full restore. The current spell for full restore should be a partial and full restore should be gradual and much higher in magic and require more essence than it currently does. That will also increase essence sells, etc.

 

Finally, I hate to keep repeating myself but there are no cureall's to mend the sick EL economy. This will take time and even then nothing is ever perfect. But.. there are some quick fixes which can help improve things drastically and bring more desperately needed balance.

 

About magic.. in addition to more variations on healing spells, perhaps a full restore is also too powerful for players who have huge health bar's ... especially thanks to the new crown of life. Full restore shouldn't exist in my personal opinion. Maybe the highest healing spell should be like 120 hp? I don't know... but we don't have potions which give a full heal either. It doesn't make sense to have a full heal spell. We need a gradual heal spell increase.

[Longsh0t]

I think what we should do is stop posting until Entropy says which ideas he likes, and then we can go into detail on the ones that have been selected (...)

Yeah i think that Entropy should give us some feedback to. Which ideas are feasable? Which ones aren't? Do we need to think in an other direction?

 

I think that by just changing the formulas and changing the rate of production we will make a huge step towards a better economy.

[Kedan]

I agree with you on the magic, that does need changing alot, but it wont really help the econmy, i think thats proberly best been discused in another thread about game play or something simar.

 

Also your right about fighting to, but i think more needs to be done than just removing fleeing

[Enyo]

Kedan, it ALL helps the economy... every little bit combined so you are wrong to say that it won't. Of course it will. It will change spells thus creating more demand for the overproductive supply, etc.

[Gwain]

Kedan, it ALL helps the economy... every little bit combined so you are wrong to say that it won't. Of course it will. It will change spells thus creating more demand for the overproductive supply, etc.

 

I agree on the magic idea. but still the Essences are on of the very few things that doesn't have big problems about production. i also do agree that a full restore at lvl 21 is too much, but that is the least problem we have (if we talk about the economy).

 

 

Cheers.

[Kedan]

ok yeah it will help abit, i guess it will increase the demand slightly. I think it fits into the tweaking the fomualers. It's one of them things that needs to be worked out after there have been so big changes to the game. As at this time we can't really give that good of a pridiction about what items will be worth what, so it would be best to try the other suggestions then start playing with the fomualers.

 

Maybe removing restore and added in other healing spells could be done now

[Enyo]

When EL was first created it was a new game with a limited population who needed to rely upon valuable monster drops and reasonable NPC prices. When full restore was originally created players didn't have health bars in the hundreds and two continents didn't exist.

 

Its time to re-evaluate:

At present there is a thriving community ready to work and meet the demand of their fellow players. Give them this opportunity by removing ALL weapons, jewlry, potions, essence and armor from monster drops. Remove them ALL. No one needs to buy leather torso, leather helms, damage rings, or most weapons including the poweful titanium long (which is nearly as good a serp sword) because they are dropped. This leaves books, cloaks, stones and gold for drops only.

 

Get rid of perks which are the counterpart of their cloak thus increasing sells in rare monster drop cloaks and giving them value once again. Make more uses for serp stones so that they are once again more valuable. Get rid of the artificial perk or reduce the random factor significantly to create enriched essences so that the market isn't flooded with them and increase the price of EFE inshop or don't sell them at all.

 

Kedan, changing the healing spells would be more than a mere "tweaking".. it would be a major overhaul because we've all become dependent upon these full restoration spells and fleeing tactics. It would require adjustment just as the cooldown has and just as it would to have a cooldown on all tools but in the end it would all be worthwhile. Magic spells are one of the building blocks of this society. They effect how we train, how we sell and buy.. it all has implications. People who are too weak will sit at a storage and train their magic by casting shield spells until they reach magic level 21. Players abuse this by training on monsters which are too strong for them in the first place thus overpopulating spawns. Stronger players with high health bars and even higher increased health bars abuse this with their crown of life.. and so on and so on..

 

If there is more variety in healing spells, thus more need to buy mana potions or healing essence..this is changing formulas as you all were discussing before except I propose to change some magic spells since these are used most.

 

I propose to git rid of fleeing since this is also relied on most thus creating a need for weapons of all types.. from the weaker weapon to the more stronger one. Make pickaxes not usable as a weapon thus once again forcing players to buy the weaker weapons. Only allow players below 10/10 ad to be able to use bones and sticks as weapons and all others are forced to buy iron swords or tit shorts, etc from players... or at the very least make these bones and sticks break very very easily. Personally I think that the stronger a player is the weaker weapons should break easier and weaker players shouldn't be able to use a stronger weapon. In reality, a weak person couldn't possibly pick up a heavy weapon and expect to use it if he had never used a weapon in his life.

 

As for rings.. perhaps there needs to be tweaking on the cooldown for damage rings and diss rings so that the crafters have customers again? That with jewlry not being dropped or weapons and essence and armor not being dropped.. all of it combined together will make drastic and quick imrovements/changes to the game and also economy. As I said before.. Its a major overhaul. Sometimes its needed.

 

And for NPC's.. they also need a re-evaluation. The needs of NPC's 3 years ago shouldn't be the same as for today with a larger and more skilled player population. Mira for example sells mana potions for only 5gc each and healing potions for 6gc each! Its time for the shops to go up in prices from essences to potions even to ore, bars and armor and weapons. Most new players will just buy an iron chainmail from the blacksmith for 200gc. All of this needs to stop. Buying from a shop should be a luxury that one affords themself when they can't find a merchant player or can't make it themselves.

 

There should also be at least one nexus required even to make the smallest items such as gloves or mana potions... thus once again creating more of a demand. This IS all about supply and demand, folks!

 

If there is a risk to cloaks breaking while training on a creature shouldn't it seem logical that the same risk exists when using a cloak for summoning, or just about anything else including harvesting?

 

YES, having level restrictions for everything will also improve the economy even down to wearing platemail or using a certain type of weapon. Once again it will force the player to buy appropriate armor and weapons according to their level needs and not physique and coordination needs, etc.

 

Plus everything else that I've already mentioned.. cooldown on all tools, magic cap on exp, etc etc.. trust me folks this will work...it will at least be a healthy beginning. My original post in this thread

 

 

Summarization:

How did we get into this mess? Its simple really.. the current roles and functions of NPC prices, formulas, magic and monster drops were suitable for a much smaller playing population. Since then they have become outdated with the growing EL population and its current needs and therefore needs to be re-evaluated. This is normal for any society. No one can predict the future needs on a new project accurately. Re-evaluate.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Savyl

[Dent]

I caution against the idea of a cooldown on tools.

 

While an experience cap allows a player to meet a demand while only gaining experience from a certain number, the cooldown actually restricts the ability to manufacture.

 

It is the difference between you could make it with little incentive if you wanted to, and you are not allowed to make it even if you have to.

 

Any time you try to put hard rules on an economic function, you wind up hurting things more than helping. It is much better to remove incentive than removing ability.

[Ornitorrinco]

Get rid of rostogols.

[Enyo]

Dent, even in reality not even a machine could mass produce at the rate of EL players and with such perfection. That is the purpose of a cooldown on tools is to slow the production down a bit, thus making it a little more realistic.

[Atlantis]

Get rid of rostogols.

I agree with this 100%. Make things like CoL, CoM, and the magic swords undropable, and remove the rostogol. Currently it is TOO powerful for the price you need to pay. Either that, or make it a lot more rare, so the price is more like 40k.

 

EDIT: Tags fixed

Edited April 26, 2006 by Atlantis

[Enyo]

Get rid of rostogols.

I agree with this 100%. Make things like CoL, CoM, and the magic swords undropable, and remove the rostogol. Currently it is TOO powerful for the price you need to pay. Either that, or make it a lot more rare, so the price is more like 40k.

 

EDIT: Tags fixed

Getting rid of the ros stone won't change a thing just like it didn't change a thing when they removed it from monster drops nearly a year ago. The only thing that changed is that the price skyrocketed. Ros stones are rare enough as it is.

 

Nothing should be undropable unless its expensive items bought with cash inshop. Thats my personal opinion.

[Infamous]

Get rid of rostogols.

I agree with this 100%. Make things like CoL, CoM, and the magic swords undropable, and remove the rostogol. Currently it is TOO powerful for the price you need to pay. Either that, or make it a lot more rare, so the price is more like 40k.

 

EDIT: Tags fixed

 

are you mad?

40k is way to much lal

you need to be a zillionair to keep on pk'ing then -_-

[DemonCowboy]

Demon, you make me laugh lol. Yes I'm a bad goddess because I do harvest blue lupines and I wouldn't have to if I had gold but I don't have gold and I am one of those high level players. I refuse to take anti social and infact I am against that perk because all it does is encourage multiplay which isn't fair to the players who don't cheat.

 

I don't pk so no income from that. I do miss the days of Ros stone drops. I remember that big heated debate about how everyone said that by removing Ros stones from the monster drops it would help to improve the economy. I warned people then that it wouldn't but no one listened to me. I warned people that with the stone in the hands of the harvester the price would skyrocket and the economy wouldn't change one iota. Guess what? I was right.

well Savyl i forgot to mention in my post that i do it WITHOUT multi-playing, i am WHOLEHEARTEDLY against it. in my guild, any player caught doing such is kicked from the guild, reported to the mods, and any ally or neutral guild will be warned that they are a cheater. we do allow multi-play for only RP reasons or shared connections listed in the guild's rules HERE, it is #8.

 

also, my guild allows PvP but not PK (given from the OLD view of it at UO that PvP is honorable and can b to the death, and PK is picking on those weaker for easy profit or cheap thrills.) so no income there either.

 

[*]Limit The Amount Of Raw Matrials That Can Be Harvested

This can be done it a number of ways, but the best way i think would be every person can only harvest a certain amount of reasource per hour (so it would stop you when your harvest exp cap would cut in. That would limit the amount a person can manu items to a certain extent. They would be force to buy from other players if they want to level any more. Problem that could happen is, people who have enough money would just keep buying the harvestable items and then sells the finished products for what ever they can on market, just in order to get as much exp as they can. This would still leave the problem of mass producing for a while, and it gives people will lots of money a chance to get ahead of the rest. Good thing is this can't last, as people will adventally run out of money, meaning mass profuction will stop, and prices will slowly come up. Although i do see this as one of the idea most people will not like, even though it should help them.

i think this idea could cause problems giving more reason for multi-logging. i think that reducing incentive to harvest (especially for money) would be a much better option. that way people can still harvest to make items that have no problem being mass produced because they're quick use/ high demand like essences and potions, while reducing the incentive to harvest for money, and for stuff to make items less in demand.

 

plus, i think for lvling purposes in manu, (though i dont do manu nor crafting,) little things that are 1 use like other skills have that should sell in bulk to help reduce the overproduction of items that inherently don't have a high demand like swords or armor. maybe 1 such 1-use manu item could be something like a poison needle which breaks on contact releasing poison poisoning the target. (btw this would also probably give another use for needles making them something else to spend more money on.) i could probably think of more given time.

 

 

these 2 quotes i put together to b more speciffic on my views of this:

[*]Change The Way You Earn Attack Exp.

At present using a weapon when training means you get less exp, therefor people dont use a weapon. If it was changed so that people would gain the same amount of attack exp, or even more when using a weapon, we should start seeing the demand for weapons increase

Get rid of fleeing and players will buy weapons again. The only reason players "think" that they earn more exp without a weapon is because they are conditioned to think this way. The whole point is to keep the creature alive for as long as possible and to flee when it stops giving exp points and then start attacking again to start the experience meter anew...its like turning the hour glass over before the sand pours out. This is how players bypass the exp per creature limit on training attack/defense levels. There is no way to bypass the harvesting exp limit and there never was one for magic, manu, potions, crafting and summoning but the exp on those items per capita is low mainly because it requires much effort to gather, etc etc..

 

As I was saying players falsely think that by fleeing you gain more exp but truthfully that is only accurate with pvp training. With creatures I look at it more like how much exp gain per restore or srs. Some players gauge their exp based on time like per hour, etc.. Others measure it per monster or per oa or per attack or defense. It all basically adds up to the same exp at the end of the EL day.

 

Get rid of fleeing altogether and more players will buy dissengagement rings and weapons both.

 

Now, I'm gonna run and hide from half of EL.

i think while fleeing would do that in a small way, it would also make ppl less apt to fight at all instead of wasting diss rings. i think a better option would to be to change the combat system all together. instead of exp per successful hit/evade, att and def, each monster should have a set number of a/d experience delivered upon successful KILL.

 

i realize that this could be difficult to impossible to impliment given the current engine because there would also need to be a way that it splits it between multiple attackers in those cases. but if this was done, people would be ALOT more inclined to use weapons because then they would be going for the fastest kills for the best experience. they would still risk their lives on higher monsters for the better experience, using weapons for the quickest kill, so they can move on to the next monster/player.

 

semi-related to this i believe entropy had an idea at 1 time to unlock players fighting so ppl could move around and fight. i think this would help the above idea so ppl could try to land blows w/o taking a hit as well as help provide the engine for other developments that are possibly in the works that i won't name here.

 

 

Dent, even in reality not even a machine could mass produce at the rate of EL players and with such perfection. That is the purpose of a cooldown on tools is to slow the production down a bit, thus making it a little more realistic.

but this will hurt on even simple items that should b left able to be done, like bones powder. i believe splitting the process up into stages would be a much more feasable option that would produce less headacheand subsequentially, bellyache. instead of making a player wait to do something again, give them more to do to make it so that it takes longer. i just advise that a new balance of experience should be found so ppl don't get too bored so that they can't lvl and quit, which i'm sure is something the devs DEFINATELY don't want.

[Terena]

I've only been playing this game for 4 months, but when I started, I decided I wanted my character to be an all-rounder. Because there were no class restrictions, and I didn't have to choose one skill to focus on, I wanted to be able to do a bit of everything. So, I've been doing a bit in every skill, and have a fair idea of the pros and cons of each. I don't claim to have the answer to everything but I at least have some experiences to draw on. Had I not intended my character to be multi-skilled, I would have had to anyway, as I simply can't afford to make most things by buying the ingredients, I have to make them all from scratch. We need to make the skills self-sufficient - you should be able to make enough money manufacturing/crafting/etc. without having to harvest and alch aswell.

 

Firstly, harvesting is a skill. It may be easy to level up at lower levels, but not when you get higher, just like every other skill. You also have to invest a fair bit of money researching to be able to harvest more difficult items. I don't think we should take away NPCs buying harvestables, but maybe just the flowershops. Harvesting flowers requires little investment in the skill, and with a high emu, one can make money quite quickly. However, harvesters need to make some money back for the money they invested in all those expensive books. The point I'm getting to is: harvestables are the bottom line - everything else in the game is made up from them. We need to have NPCs buying them in order to create the lower limit for the price of everything. From my own business of harvesting in game, I find an adequate price for selling a harvestable is based on its emu (e.g. silver ore is 2emu, so 2gc, emeralds 3emu, so 3gc). So, if we set the buying price for these harvestables at an NPC for their emu, lets see how that works up the chain:

 

Example: Iron bar

Iron ore -4gc

Coal - 2gc

Sulfur - 2gc

Flowers -negible

Iron bar (4*7)+(2*3)+(2*2) = 36gc - therefore an NPC buying iron bars, should buy them at 36gc (or more to cover food cost)

 

Example 2: Iron sword

 

(10 iron bars at 36gc = 360gc + 1 steel bar at 48gc + 2 fire essences at 2gc = 4gc) = 404gc

So, the NPC should buy an iron sword for 404gc

 

Naturally, give the current market price of approximately 150gc, players would be unlikely to want to buy them for 404gc. So, in order to cause least disruption to the market, a sensible solution would be to reduce the ingredients used for it, eg. 4 iron bars (144gc)+ 1 steel bar(48gc)+ 4 fire essences(8gc) = 200gc. Not too much of an increase, and allows the manuer to at least break even. The NPC buying price should also be set to this.

 

So, in summary:

1) Get rid of flower shops - Its too easy to harvest flowers to make money, making money should require some investment in a skill.

2) Set a base price at an NPC for all other harvestables - Possibly based on emu

3) Adjust NPC buying prices to reflect base cost of goods OR change formulas to match current prices (I believe the second choice might be less disruptive to the market while still solving some of the problems)

 

Also, some of the previous ideas stated sound like they would help too. The using of low-level items in higher level items. I think it works well in crafting, where you level up making rings and polished stones, which you will need to make rings later. I still think we need to raise the exp earned, so that we don't need quite so many items to level up - there are so many players now, and so many making items to level that we need to reduce the amount being made rather than finding ways to take the items out of circulation. I agree taking manufacturable items from monster drops would certainly help, provided that they are replaced with something of equivalent value (more gold/books etc.). It would be unfair to decrease monster drops, as they are already quite low, its simply the large amount of players flooding the market with these items. I liked some of the other ideas, about mixing in stages, deconstructing items, and various other suggestions on slowing down the manufacture process, but these sound a little more difficult than changing formulas and prices.

 

Anyway, thats my two-cents. Apologies for the long post, I've just been thinking about this a lot.

[Kedan]

Just one thing about set the NPC's to buy everything, if there is no demand for lets say a iron bar, then they are all going to be sold to the NPC which you have to understand is a very very bad thing. I have stated the main reason why i think NPC's should buy items, but at a very low price, on my summary post, that would be the only reason that having NPC's buy items will help the econmy.

 

If we have to have NPC's there to set a minamun price, that means theres something wrong with the econmy.

[Gwain]

If we have to have NPC's there to set a minamun price, that means theres something wrong with the econmy.

 

 

While i agree with nearly all of your statements i disagree on this one.

 

This isn't a real world economy.

 

In a real world economy, in a medieval setting about 1 people every, let's say, 200000 would be able to manufacture a full plate. the NPCs fulfill the purpose to represent the 99.8% of the population that don't know how to do this stuff, even if it's just 1 NPC.

 

 

Cheers.

[Longsh0t]

If we have to have NPC's there to set a minamun price, that means theres something wrong with the econmy.

But in order for players to even start buying things from the market, we need to have some sort of Cash-inflow.

 

Imagine what would happen if you removed the flower shops and NPCs that buys harvestable resources: the economy will suffer even more, because there is not enough inflow of GC.

 

I think you NEED to have some NPC who buys the lowest level stuff, because if the total amount of GC in the game keeps decreasing, prices will decrease also.

 

If there is sufficient GC in the game, all people will do is buy from others, because the NPC prices are too low = a step in fixing the economy.

[Mundaus]

In a real world economy, in a medieval setting about 1 people every, let's say, 200000 would be able to manufacture a full plate. the NPCs fulfill the purpose to represent the 99.8% of the population that don't know how to do this stuff, even if it's just 1 NPC.

 

I wonder what proportion would be unable to pick their own flowers, from right outside their door.

 

But in order for players to even start buying things from the market, we need to have some sort of Cash-inflow.

 

Imagine what would happen if you removed the flower shops and NPCs that buys harvestable resources: the economy will suffer even more, because there is not enough inflow of GC.

 

Absolutely true - we're just saying there are other ways of introducing gc, such as through monster drops.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Mundaus

[Kedan]

The gc would come from fighter (i would suggest monster drop alot more gc) as at the end of the day 90% of things made are to help fighters, or to help some that then in turn helps fighters.

 

So basicly the money would be coming into game though fighters not npc's, then for everyone else to get that money they will have to make the items the fighters need instead of selling ore to NPC's

 

And if we have ways to bring down the supply and up the demand the amount of an item made and that fighters need will be around the same, so there will be no need to sell to NPC's anyway

[DemonCowboy]

If we have to have NPC's there to set a minamun price, that means theres something wrong with the econmy.

But in order for players to even start buying things from the market, we need to have some sort of Cash-inflow.

 

Imagine what would happen if you removed the flower shops and NPCs that buys harvestable resources: the economy will suffer even more, because there is not enough inflow of GC.

 

I think you NEED to have some NPC who buys the lowest level stuff, because if the total amount of GC in the game keeps decreasing, prices will decrease also.

 

If there is sufficient GC in the game, all people will do is buy from others, because the NPC prices are too low = a step in fixing the economy.

like the others have said, there would be other ways to introduce money into the game fighting is only 1. the loss of the ability to sell harvestables still leaves even ways to get money from NPCs.

 

for example:

• fire essences u can make right away 1ce u start exploring the maps, and can sell them to NPCs.
  u can also kill rabbits and sell their furs on IP b4 that (that even suggests it right when u start playing the game.)
  plus when u do start exploring u can also sell plenty of other furs in tirnwood vale in WS.
  there's also the market channel selling to OTHER PLAYERS!!!! that would start buying them from other players because their time would become better spent making items than harvesting.
  

so u see? even new players will still have PLENTY of ways to make money, just not as much. which is as it should be. also helps bring more player interaction into the game. so while it will inconvenience ppl who don't want to put effort into making money, they can still get it, and it's win-win for everybody else.

 

edit: and also that would mean that the prices of stuff actually made could be re-adjusted so that they could turn a small profit as they should.

Edited April 26, 2006 by DemonCowboy

[Atlantis]

Get rid of rostogols.

I agree with this 100%. Make things like CoL, CoM, and the magic swords undropable, and remove the rostogol. Currently it is TOO powerful for the price you need to pay. Either that, or make it a lot more rare, so the price is more like 40k.

 

EDIT: Tags fixed

 

are you mad?

40k is way to much lal

you need to be a zillionair to keep on pk'ing then -_-

that was my point...if the cols and thermals etc are undropable, then you just wear leather and chain and you dont need a rost

[Jamol]

Ok, I have been looking at the post and there is alot of good ideas here. All of u need credit at throwing ideas around. We r all concern about the market!! There is not going to be any one way that will be the best.

 

It will hurt some and help others. Ent u should know this the best of all u can not please everyone. i dont expect u to either!! Stick to your guns when you do decide.

 

I hate to say this but i am hope for an item wipe for EVERYONE. Then you will see your prices go up. I dont care if i lose everything it is just a game and i have fun playing it with my friends that i have met here.