Fixing some of the economy

[bkc56]

I am looking for exact suggestions, such as how and what exactly should change: formulas, prices, exp.

 

I see two main problems that can be adjusted with these types of changes:

 

Over-Supply of Items

 

Basically, as people make items in order to level up in skills, the supply exceeds demand. A couple ways to fix this (limited to formula changes);

 

1. Increase mix times and the experience per item (this has been mentioned many times before). This means that people will get the same experience-per-hour of work while producing less product which will slowely help support prices.

 

2. Increase the failure rate and give full experience for failures (you learn as much or more from your mistakes as you do from your successes). This will have the same effect of the experience/hour, reduced product, and supported prices.

 

Ever Falling Prices

 

Since there is no price floor, prices on many/most items continue to drop as people are willing to sell no matter whan the price. Establishing some price floors on items may help support prices from dropping farther.

 

1. Have NPC's buy all items in the game. Have the prices be determined based on the cost of the materials used to make the item.

 

This means that a player who buys all the ingredients can sell to NPCs for cost (minus the cost of FPs if they are used). A player willing to harvest/mix/make some of the ingredients will be able to sell for a profit.

 

If combined with the above items (to reduce production) it will help limit how much money people can make (not that making money is a bad thing).

 

Prices Based On Usefulness

 

I believe a number of items in the game cost so much to make that there's no profit to be had in making them. That is, people won't be willing to pay what it costs to make the item. I think C2 rings fall in this category. They have about the save value as a C1 ring (for moving about the land) yet cost much more to make. They are also overpriced when compared to the cost of the essence for the portal room (yes, a slight premium is good since they require no magic skill, but not 2-3 times).

 

Rather than making things harder and more expensive to make with large numbers of essence or multiple rare items, reduce the item counts and make the skill level a MINIMUM (as it is with magic). This will keep the cost of making an item more inline with what players will pay for it, yet making sure only those with the desired skill are able to make it.

 

So (for example) a Idaloran ring would be 2 polished diamonds, 1 gold ring, 1 matter essence and 1 energy essence. And the skill level would be a minimum required level. This would keep them limited to the more advanced crafters, yet make their cost more appropriate to their usefulness. And when combined with the above ideas, it would keep the supply limited and the minimum price fixed.

[Mundaus]

 

1) Decreasing the quantity of components needed for an item will not solve anything, because decreasing the item's cost to manufacture will also allow the people to sell the same item for less.

 

 

True in general, but for monster drops it rebalances things between fighters and manuers. For swords the balance is too far towards fighters atm and reducing the ingredients required should help this.

[Mundaus]

Last one...

 

Market prices for swords from steel longsword up can be increased by cutting the rate at which they are monster dropped (I don't think many people will every want to buy the iron swords, even with the new summons). Fighters can be compensated by getting more gold in the monster bags (yay inflation ) then they can afford to pay more to manuers for their swords. If monster sword drops were greatly reduced then the following seems reasonable:

Iron Sword: 5 iron bars, 2FEs 125/250gc

Iron Broad Sword: 8 iron bars, 2 steel bars, 3FEs 250/500gc

Steel Long Sword: 2 iron bars, 12 steel bars, 4 FEs 425/850gc

s2e: 2 iron bars, 16 steel bars, 4 FEs, 575/1150gc

Now since Ti short is better than s2e we need to make the ingreds for Ti short cost more...

Ti short: 8 Ti bars, 8 Steel bars, 5 FEs, serp stone 800/1600gc

Ti long: 8 Ti bars, 8 Steel bars, 5 FEs, serp stone, Ti Short sword, 1600/3200gc

Ti serp: 12 Ti bars, 2 Steel bars, 7 FEs, 1 EFE, serp stone Not bought or sold by NPC.

 

Hmm.... probably want to give fighters a few more serp stones as well.

What I've tried to do here is:

(i) Make the ingredient costs higher for better swords.

(ii) Keep the iron swords cheap, but make it reasonable to manufacture them.

(iii) Keep selling to NPC price below cost of ingreds (just).

(iv) Keep things unchanged where possible.

(v) Bring the ingred cost for ti long down by removing EFE.

 

 

Nothing more from me now (promise).

[Vormavius]

Suggestions from Mundaus and bkc56 are fair.

[RedHawkXIII]

I have taken a good amount of time looking over all the skills

and am steadily working towards a goal for each--in the

process, i have seen many things that i don't even WISH to

make. The Materials:Experience:Payoff ratios are so uneven

there are only 1 or 2 things i would even THINK about making,

the worst of all evils.

 

First, a general analysis of skills to the economy.

 

These skills are listed from easiest to level up, to hardest

to level up:

 

1)Alchemy

2)Potions

3)Manufacturing

4)Crafting

 

Alchemy is the easiest to work on, crafting--the hardest.

 

Now, looking at the current economy/market, making money is

quite a pain. People turn to Alchemy to make money most of the

time--and it is the easiest skill.

 

Potions are slightly harder due to the non-storage

ingredients, the large amount of resources need to make some

potions, and the VIALS OH THOSE VILE VIALS. Need a vial? go to

the potions shop and buy mana pots and drink them for a vial.

Then come Manufacturing, and Crafting--the skills most

difficult to level, and extremely respectable in which to have

a decent level.

 

So, why isn't the real money in Manufacturing and Crafting?

Well quite simple--the Work:Experience:Profit ratio is

practically non-existent.

 

**Note, I am talking about work for all skills to include

harvesting/getting materials yourself versus buying them from

other players.**

 

Now, lets see what it takes to make the hardest Essence.

 

Magic Essence

Alch Level: 20

Exp: 80

Materials:

1 Impatient

1 Lilac

1 Emerald

 

Now lets take something at the Level-wise equal in

Manufacturing.

 

Fur Pants

Manu Level: 20

Exp: 110

Materials:

6 Leather

2 Wolf Fur

7 Threads

2 Deer fur

1 Beaver fur

 

Now, true base exp on the pants is 30 exp more than the ME.

But lets look at that work:exp:profit ratio. Magic Essence is,

according to TrinityBot, 8-10 Gc. Fur Pants are sold to Trik

for 75 Gc each. Let us take into account that Leather is a -28

Gc profit (thats WITH the DISCOUNT) driving the Profit of Fur

pants down to a 47 Gc profit. We'll say its worth more to make

6 ME.

 

So would I rather make 6 ME for 6 impatients, 6 Lilacs, and 6

Emeralds, or shall I go about gathering 2 wolf furs, 2 deer

furs, 1 beaver fur, 6 leather, and 7 thread from spiders? (If

you bought from store, thats -7 more profit).

 

Are you going to work this hard for an extra 30 exp? Sorry,

but not me.

 

This is an example of the unbalanced ratio's within

Manufacturing--Crafting is, in fact, harder than

manufacturing.

 

**Note: This is not to meant to compare skills to skills, this

is meant to compare Work:exp:profit ratios amongst the

manufacturing (using the manufac window) various items in EL**

 

Now lets take the creation of an Iron shield, a Steel Long

sword, and an Iron Helm.

 

Iron Shield

Exp: 80

Sell to Trik: 400

Materials:

72 Iron Ores (For Iron bars)

30 Coal (Iron bars)

30 FE (Iron bars + manufacturing shield)

 

Steel Long Sword

Exp: 120

Sell to Trik: 425

Materials:

110 Iron Ores (For Iron bars)

66 Coal (Iron bars)

44 FE (Iron bars + manufacturing sword)

 

Iron Helm

Exp: 140

Sell to Trik: 75

Materials:

35 Iron Ores

15 Coal

3 Leather (14 Gc via bulk price)

14 FE

 

Now the Iron shield is an excellent way to make money--cost

efficient in its supplies (294 Gc if you buy everything for

minimum TrinityBot price) and the payoff is a good profit.

Take a step up--Steel longs. They are no good in the

work:profit ratio, since you can sell the items that u need to

make the steel long for more money than you can get from Trik

(484 if you sell everything minimum TrinityBot price). Some

say the money burn is worth it because you are in fact paying

for the exp you get. However, don't you think that just

getting to the required level to successfully MAKE the item is

your fair sacrifice to gain the appropriate exp for that

level? Must you pay more just to get a little extra exp? Then

there is that Iron helm. The Work:Exp ratio is great, but the

profit is NEGATIVE by FAR. The Trik price is 75 Gc, but 14 Gc

right off the bat is taken off. Multiply 35 iron ores and 15

coal by 2 and you already can sell your harvest for more than

your product.

 

Now, lets take a quick glance at crafting.

 

Silver ring

Exp: 15

Materials:

16 Silver ores

6 Coal ores

11 FE

 

Now i'm sure nobody would even consider thinking about this

Work:Exp:Profit ratio as being balanced. The silver would give

more than double the exp in Alchemy. There isn't even a market

for crafted items (NPC wise, that is). You could sell it for a

fair TrinityBot price, though. However, market based money-

making is only advisable in an Essence sense. (It would

probably be wiser to keep your silver rings and use them later

on in the creation of teleport rings.)

 

This is just to give a general outlook. If you could mold

around a reasonable Work:Experience:Profit ratio, everybody

would be happy.

 

I do not believe in an hourly limit for any experience gain

except for harvesting, since it is merely sitting there

gaining exp for watching green font fly away from your head.

Everything else is work put into it, so you should get exp for

your work.

 

If you wish to remove surplus supply from the game, perhaps

random events (like invasions, or Special Days) like a

merchant is passing through Seridia and is buying so-and-so

items for a higher price than you usually get from selling to

NPCs (i.e., special merchant that buys from you for store

price or for half the store price and is looking for certain

items) this will empty surplus from the market and put some

change in people's pockets. This is merely a suggestion to

help you brainstorm--just an idea to spark more ideas.

 

An example of "evening out the ratios" would be something

like--for the silver ring

1 silver bar and 2 FE, and lower the requirements to make a

silver bar, or

make 2 or 3 silver rings from 1 silver bar and 3 FE.

 

For items like the iron helm and steel long mentioned above,

either lessen the required items to create these items, or

increase the price offered by Store/Trik.

 

Thank you, anybody please criticize if you feel ^_^

[DemonCowboy]

i apologize ent, i would be able to give u the speciffics u'r asking for, but i'm antisocial, so gathering all NPC buy/sell prices would be difficult for me. if you could supply a list to me i could be of more help, and would be happy to since u know from the suggestion forum, this is 1 of my things i'd LOVE to see changed.

 

basically though:

 

first off, all harvestables should have little to no value. flowers should probably be (if bought by an NPC at all, flower shops could just sell) bought for <.01gc and the higher harvestables under 1gc ea. (varying according to reccomended harvesting lvl and/or nexus requirements.) people should not consider harvesting as a source of income. even a brand new player can get the stuff to make FEs when they start exploring the world, and untill then even when you first start the game it suggests selling rabbit furs.

 

items difficulty to get the ingredients for items, the exp for them, and the price the NPCs should buy/sell for should based on the reccomended lvl to make the item. FEs for example are almost the first things anyone makes, therefore they should be worth very little maybe bought from an NPC for 3gc with the NPC buying them from players for 1gc. higer lvl items should go for more w/ respect to the lvl that it's reccomended that they're made.

 

water essences either have a formula problem or a lvl problem depending on how u want to look at it. i see it as a formula problem, because the lvl and the experience seem to compliment eachother. therefore, you shouldn't need sapphires to make them, because higher lvl ppl aren't going to waste their time selling sapphires to new pp. so from my point of view that should be changed to a more accessable item to that lvl, maybe a flower (or those new blue mushrooms, mushrooms are good for retaining water neway)

 

also as the example i given w/ the FE, NPCs should sell items for 3x what they buy them for. giving a nice medium inbetween for the player market, letting it be as cut-throat as it can possibly be. while still giving alternative options in most cases and bargaining tools. (plus the NPCs have to buy thier PoFs to make this stuff too!!!)

 

handling the market this way will lead to a more balanced economy because:

• 1) people wont harvest for money as much because it won't b viable eliminating some of the money from the game.
  2) low lvl characters will buy low lvl items or just above their lvl because it's all they will be able to afford w/o saving up and getting closer to the other lvl anyway, giving value again to the lower lvl items.
  3) it would be alot more intuitive to the players and it would just flat out make sense to them yet would keep it challenging (plus would straighten out mira, for that exploit of selling PoRs for free PoFs bringing up the value of PoFs - the price change would even make that current formula more feasable in terms of cost effectiveness)
  

on a side note harvy's vials are WAY too expensive in terms of quartz that much quartz (judging by the size suggested by the picture in the inventory would make a vial that u'd need both arms to carry) maybe 1-2 quartz and 3gc would seem to me to make alittle more sense.

 

like i said, i don't have a list of NPC buy/sell prices. if ent, a dev or any1 can supply me w/ such a list, i could search the encyc for the formulas and exp, and such and i could give a full and complete list of SPECIFFIC suggestions in a week or less.

 

EDIT: oh, i just realized, that w/ cooldown, under this system some food costs would probably need some adjusting as well but nothing major. because PoFs would become more valuable meaning some of the lower lvls wouldn't b able to afford them. but only minor reductions in some of the lower items, because that could help combat overproduction to an extent too.

Edited April 25, 2006 by DemonCowboy

[Torg]

I would like to see things (particularly in Manufacturing) have more of a use, and therefore more demand, and hence slightly higher prices so you can afford to buy things from others. I think the benefits need to be more obvious so there is a *reason* to want better armour etc, and as long as there is a reason to want it, if it broke more often it would create demand.

 

Unfortunatly, that has more to do with altering armour values than what you were wanting, but I can't see how adjusting prices or ingredients will build more interaction between players (which is what I would like to see happen).

 

Crafting of course is a problem. It isn't possible to increase the benefits of rings under the current system. The only possible method I could see is to have a delay on changing maps which is neither fair to those who can't afford it, and not at all desirable for the game in general.

[Longsh0t]

Ok, here goes

 

How to fix the economy?

The Golden Rules

Before you start blindly making up prices & ingredients, i think it's wise to first establish what you really want in the economy. So you need a few 'golden rules':

• As you gain more levels, the benefits should increase
  
• Teamwork is better then doing everything yourself
  

Ill start of with these, maybe there are more needed, but for the moment this will do.

Since we're looking at fixing the economy, i will often use the term GC per Hour or Experience per GC, in short GC/h and Exp/GC

 

The concept

Here is how you can fix the economy:

1. Determine the GC per hour ratio for every item or if there is no profit: Experience per GC
   
2. Adjust this ratio in a way that it increases slightly(!) when levels increase
   
3. Have NPCs that sets the 'floors' on the prices (in the future you can make these prices dynamic, but as entropy said, we're only going to change the formulas)
   

It is really that simple! When you do this, people start making the 'higher level stuff' en sell it to the NPC's in the beginning. Soon after that the market will demand various resources (because the players can now buy them) and everyone benefits!

 

Just do this for every resource, and you will soon find out why the economy is not working

 

How do you calculate it? For harvestable resources, it is easy:

-Start at a storage (and start your stopwatch)

-Walk to the resource

-Harvest 100 units (or more)

-Walk back (and stop the stopwatch)

This is the "harvest time"

Next:

-Start at a storage (start the stopwatch again)

-Walk to the NPC that buys the resource

-Walk back (and stop the stopwatch again)

This is the "selling time" (which can be alot lower if you sell to other players)

 

Selling time + Harvest time = Total time

Now get your profits.

Profits / (Total time in minutes / 60) = Goldcoinst per Hour

 

Now you have the BASIS. You can also calculate a 'fair' market price from this. Use this price for the items that need components, for example an Iron Bar. If you do, you will also be able to calculate the GC / h ratios for these kind of items.

 

Fix the economy by adjusting the GC / h ratios in a way that higher level items give a higher GC / h ratio.

[Dent]

first off, all harvestables should have little to no value. flowers should probably be (if bought by an NPC at all, flower shops could just sell) bought for <.01gc and the higher harvestables under 1gc ea. (varying according to reccomended harvesting lvl and/or nexus requirements.) people should not consider harvesting as a source of income. even a brand new player can get the stuff to make FEs when they start exploring the world, and untill then even when you first start the game it suggests selling rabbit furs.

 

I really think he has a good point here. Resources sell for way too much, and the resulting inflation means that as you increase the complexity and number of ingredients you lose more and more potential profits. Harvesting should be used in place of spending GC, not to generate it.

 

I would say drastically reduce the worth of the resources as your best start to fixing things. Then you can start playing with formulas and things.

 

Unfortunately this is neither a small nor an easy task.

[trollson]

First of all, no attempt to establish fixed prices in an economy has ever worked in the real world (for an early example, see Diocletian's Edict on Maximum Prices, 301AD). This games has an infinite gold supply, through the pockets of NPCs, which does change the equation, but is not going to be good for the economy.

 

You cannot ask for a price for an item in isolation; it all depends on supply and demand (the market), and on the cost-to-create (see below). Which is why I prefer dynamic self-balancing economic models -- but that is something a bit beyond where EL currently sits.

 

To generate demand, items require use and to be consumed. Currently most items are useless, other than for levelling skills. To digression slightly: Avoid having items become redundant by the access to other types of item -- for example, there can be a valid balance between "rapier and leather tunic" and "plate and greatsword" fighters (slightly tweaked AD&D rules, c.1984, produced dramatic effects along these lines). Avoid global optimum solutions or combinations.

 

The biggest problem remains that items are not created for the economy, but for levelling. Personally, I would not have designed a system with advancement-through-grind; that does not really reflect the "heroic adventure" aspect which was appealing in RPGs in the first place. The primary use of a skill should not be the advancement of that skill -- it all becomes rather pointless... But, that is where we are, and its not useful to say "you can't get there from here".

 

Given that, also avoid optimum solutions in levelling.

 

Coincidentally, I posted a summary of the cost-to-create calculation on our forum the other night, which may be of interest in pricing products. This tries to capture, from first principles, an effective base price for manufacturables, and did give values which where a good reflection of the market prices at the time.

Cut and pasted from a previous posting on another forum:

 

Cost to Create Calculations

 

Last year I devised a set of base prices for the creation or harvest of items, and posted them on the old forum in spreadsheet form. I'll get around to re-working them at somepoint (sooner rather than later), since hindsight is a wonderful perspective.

 

Until then, I'll try to outline the calculation:

 

The cost-to-create for any item must factor in:

• The best-price for the ingredients.
  
• An amount to cover food costs (more important now we use Feasting Potions), and maybe other sundries. For this, assume two attempts are required to make an item (see next point).
  
• A yield due to failures applied to the ingredients cost. I set this at 75%, which seems a reliable figure for manufacture at recommended level (50% fail, of which 50% loses ingredients); so 60gc of ingredients actually costs 80gc (60/0.75).
  
• A mark-up for recommended level, as +%/level, to reflect greater demand on the time of higher level characters (a)
  
• A portage cost for ingredients and finished product, in gc/emu. (
  
• An offset for experience, in gc/xp, which reduces overall cost ( c )
  
• A refund for byproducts, as their best-price. This was principly for the reuse of vials, but can also be used to give costs for enhanced items.
  

The values for (a), ( , and ( c ) need to be determined emperically. For a first-approximation, they can be set to zero.

 

The best-price for an item is then the cost-to-create limited by the buy-sell prices offered by NPCs;

• If an item costs less to make than an NPC offers to buy it for, then sell it and make an immediate profit.
  
• If it costs more than the NPC sells it for, then buy it rather than going to the effort of making it yourself.
  

Assume that goods are being created at their recommended level, and that any helpful quests have been completed (cheap leather and wine), and for enhanced items, the creator has the Articifer perk.

Edited April 25, 2006 by trollson

[Gwain]

first off, all harvestables should have little to no value. flowers should probably be (if bought by an NPC at all, flower shops could just sell) bought for <.01gc and the higher harvestables under 1gc ea. (varying according to reccomended harvesting lvl and/or nexus requirements.) people should not consider harvesting as a source of income. even a brand new player can get the stuff to make FEs when they start exploring the world, and untill then even when you first start the game it suggests selling rabbit furs.

 

I really think he has a good point here. Resources sell for way too much, and the resulting inflation means that as you increase the complexity and number of ingredients you lose more and more potential profits. Harvesting should be used in place of spending GC, not to generate it.

 

let's consider this:

 

If silver is at, let's say, 1gc and chrysanthemum is at 0.1 gc then HEs would probably be sold at 2.5gcs each without an NPC that sets the lower price barrier.

 

While lowering the value of harvestables could be a good idea (that still needs a complete redrawing of the economy imho) it needs also a price barrier for the finished products or it will just let the prices fall more.

[Longsh0t]

Very good post trollson

 

Avoid global optimum solutions or combinations

I agree on that, part of the fun of a game is the dynamic aspect. If you know that making silver bars is ALWAYS the best to do at a certain point, it takes away the advanture of trying to find better things.

 

To generate demand, items require use and to be consumed. Currently most items are useless, other than for levelling skills.

Also agree on that.

 

 

Last year I devised a set of base prices for the creation or harvest of items, and posted them on the old forum in spreadsheet form. I'll get around to re-working them at somepoint (sooner rather than later), since hindsight is a wonderful perspective.

VERY USEFULL. You can use this to adjust the ingredients for lets say titanium bars or a steel longsword, to make them a little profitable.

[Vormavius]

Unfortunatly, that has more to do with altering armour values than what you were wanting, but I can't see how adjusting prices or ingredients will build more interaction between players (which is what I would like to see happen).

 

Think about this: My better skills are attack, deffense, magic, alchemy and harvest. My highest rank skill is summom (#30), which I give it up to train.

 

All skills above just waste money, but alchemy and harvest.

If manufers could gain fair values based on items used, it means they could buy bars instead of making it by their own, and I could live making some bars selling to manufers, so I could live without hours and hours of harvest.

 

And for who said harvest gives too much money: No man, you are wrong. It is not harvest that gives too much money, the other skills that gives too few money, so people harv to survive.

 

What makes economy to broke, its because to survive, a person has to do one of 2 things: or develop all skills so he doesnt need to buy stuff from others, or associate to friends like a sindicate, providing materials for items (that's why most of the ppl don't buy stuff)

 

Edit: To justify why manufers would buy bars instead of making them: Fighters like me have high alchemy because of HE making, and high EMU because of p/c. It's easy for us to make bars than manufers, so if they could surviving on their skill, they could buy material instead of making by themselv.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Vormavius

[Kedan]

The way I'm going to do this is give everything a good price, then work with these price's to find fomuals which make the raw matrials cost come to around the same as the finished product (These are what I think the NPC's should pay) Ofcourse if NPC pay's this price the market would have to pay more, and as i have only slightly edited the raw matrials NPC buy price it wont make the money coming from the NPC any faster, apart from monster drops which i suggest monster not drop anything that other skills make, that way it wont affect this, but as you didn't ask about monster drops being changed I wont really go into that. I have also used another suggestion (sorry I can't remember who it was) who said about reusing old weapons, so here goes;

 

Raw Matrails(Harvest)

 

Iron Ore

NPC Buy Price: 2gc

 

Silver Ore

NPC Buy Price: 1gc

 

Gold Ore

NPC Buy Price: 3gc

 

Titanuim ore

NPC Buy Price: 2gc

 

Coal

NPC Buy Price: 1gc

 

Sulpur

NPC Buy Price: 0.5gc

 

Red Snapdragon

NPC Buy Price: 0.25gc

 

Red Rose

NPC Buy Price: 0.25gc

 

Intermedate Items (Alch)

 

Fire Essence

NPC Buy Price: 2gc

Items Needed: 1 Sulpur, 3 Red Roses, 3 Red Snapdragons

 

Iron Bar

NPC Buy Price 25gc

Items Needed: 7 Iron ore, 3 coal, 4 Fire Essences

 

Steel Bar

NPC Buy Price: 30gc

Items Needed: 9 iron ore, 4 Coal, 4 Fire Essence

 

Titanium Bar

NPC Buy Price 45gc

Items Needed: 10 Titanium Ore, 5 Coal, 10 Fire Essences

 

 

Finished Products(Manu)

 

Iron Sword

NPC Buy Price 100gc

Items Needed: 2 Iron Bars 50gc, 1 Steel Bar 80gc, 10 Fire Essences

 

Iron Broad Sword

NPC Buy Price 200gc

Items Needed: 1 Iron Sword , 2 Iron Bars, 1 Steel Bar, 10 Fire Essences

 

Steel Long Sword

NPC Buy Price 500gc

Items Needed: 2 Iron Broad Sword, 1 Iron Bar, 2 Steel Bars, 7 Fire Essences

 

Two Edged Steel Sword

NPC Buy Price 1,000gc

Items Needed: 1 Steel Long Sword, 7 Iron Bars, 10 Steel Bars, 12 Fire Essences

 

Titanium Steel Short Sword

NPC Buy Price 2,000gc

Items Needed: 1 Two Edged Steel Sword, 4 Iron Bars, 14 Steel Bars, 10 Titanium Bars, 15 Fire Essences

 

Titanium Steel Long Sword

NPC Buy Price 5,000gc

Items Needed: 2 Titanium Steel Short Swords, 5 Iron Bars, 11 Steel Bars, 11 Titanium Bars, 25 Fire Essences

 

Titanium Steel Serpent Sword

NPC Buy Price 10,000gc

Items Needed: 1 Titanium Steel Long Sword, 1 EFE (3k), 1 Serp Stone(1k), 3 Iron Bars, 9 Steel Bars, 13 Titanium Bars, 12 Fire Essences

EFE's and Serp Stones are hard to come up with a price unless there is a NPC which buys them, but I have given them a price which i think a NPC should pay if there was one.

 

 

Ofcourse This wont totally fix the econmy for a number of reason;

- Monster's would still drop the items which makes it imposible for manu to compet

- There is still no use for swords other than PKing, so not many people buy them (re-useing old weapons will help with this, but still only to the point of which serps are in demand for PKing

 

So I would suggest stopping monsters drop manuable things (so they would just drop animal items, capes, books and a thew other things like thread maybe even empty vials, leather, wine, ale and mead. You could also have all the stones (but rostogal) drop, but the drop rates of most of these items need to be very rare keeping there prices up.

 

PS. I have only done the items used for making a swords but if you like the idea and need help coming up with more fomuals just send me a pm though forums and i'll work on them.

[Thordin]

I think that the main problem is in ratio of dropped items. Why make titanium longsword which require EFE? I will just buy it from fighter for 800gc. Economy is not something, which can be fixed in an hour. It's gentle and fragile mechanism which needs to be balanced by small steps. Decreasing an amount of item drops and increasing coins drop from monsters can help maybe, as fighters will need to buy gear for coins they find in drops. And as for adjusting formulas, IMHO drastic changes in formulae won't do any good, just small there and there (and either remove EFE from titanium longsword, or change the drop ratio) just to evolve it, no revolution

 

(and now I am seeking fire shlelter before the flame storm comes )

[Longsh0t]

Great idea Kedan. Reusing the swords help reduce the number of items ingame, gives swords an extra purpose and helps the economy. The formulas need to be carefully tweaked though.

 

One other issue you have to look into also is: Time. How fast can someone make those swords and sell them to the NPC? Howmuch can he earn at maximum? How does this compare to his level and how does this compare to other skills?

[Vormavius]

I see many ppl saying the guilty is of monsters drops. I don't know about newbie mosters, cause a don't fight them for more than a year, but I'm sure that that's not happen to stronger monsters.

 

I don't know how much cycs I have killed, but for leveling ~13 a/d I have killed thousands of them and I got ~45 tit longs. In that time I lost dozens of steel chains, steel shields, and many grieves/cuisses/tit chain damaged/lost.

 

The question about tit long, is that it uses EFE and its useless to pk since serp swords uses the same EFE also and is pretty better. Don't make confusion on issues.

 

I'm not bitching about monster drops, but they're bad actually, please don't make them still worse. Who complain about monster drops today, will kill fluffies someday...

[Kedan]

I thought about a few more problem's my previous idea just worked with the facted that if you make something you should be able to get atleast the price that you would have got from the raw matrials (hence why i'v only worked with NPC prices) ofcourse people will want to earn money for the time they have put in, but if we let them earn this from the NPC's it will mean to much money coming into the game (for the people that was around before the big wipe they will remember this, gc was to easy to get and people was just giving away money as it was that easy to get).

 

I think what needs to be done is people need to be able to sell to other players to make the money not NPC's, but the NPC's should be there to make sure there is a minum price (being the prices of the raw matrials).

 

Another major problem of the game is the mass profucing in order to level. This leads to people selling cheaply as noone is buying. So to stop this it needs to take longer to make higher level items, alot longer. But ofcourse they need to be rewarded fairly with there time.

 

I would suggest sometihng like it takes a total of 30 minutes to make a Serp. The problem of this is someone would get bored just watching the mixing for 30 minutes. So there needs to be intermedate steps, maybe everyone lasting a minute and then the final one making the sword. That way you only get one serp in 30 minutes, you keep the person semi awake as there atleast click every minute.

 

Exp gained from this is also another big factor. The way i would work out how much exp to give would be to work out something like how much exp you can gain from an hours work of leather helms and keep that at the same rate then slighlty lower it for lower items and higher for higher items. This should incourage people to make the best items they can as there getting around the same amount of profit, and more exp per hour they work.

 

I'm not sure if this suggest count though, as it requires more items but i can't think of any other way to stop mass production and still give people that same amount of exp

[Thordin]

The formulas need to be carefully tweaked though.

 

That I 100% agree, no rush, no revolution, just balance it.

[duran]

so basicly one must give people a reason to use weapons, and one should introduce suggested minimum levels for weapons (below said level, higher chance of failure and breaking of weapon).

[Longsh0t]

Yes, that will create a market for weapons again. Which in turn leads to an increased demand for Iron bars, Steel bars, etc providing that also these items are looked into. (Again is it worth the time to make an iron bar, given the experience gain and the profit?)

[Kedan]

I just thought of another way to have stages of making things without to much extra work needing to be added. You could have it so you have to mix the items 2 at a time and it works in stages, so lets take making a Iron Borad sword using the formual i suggesed before

 

Items Needed: 1 Iron Sword , 2 Iron Bars, 1 Steel Bar, 10 Fire Essences

 

To make it easy we will say they have to be mixed in the order stated, so;

 

Stage 1 Iron Broad sword: 1 Iron Sword, 1 Iron bar

Stage 2 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 1 Iron Sword, 1 Iron bar

Stage 3 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 2 Iron Sword, 1 Steel bar

Stage 4 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 3 Iron Sword, 1 Firee Essence

Stage 5 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 4 Iron Sword, 1 Firee Essence

Stage 6 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 5 Iron Sword, 1 Firee Essence

Stage 7 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 6 Iron Sword, 1 Firee Essence

Stage 8 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 7 Iron Sword, 1 Firee Essence

Stage 9 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 8 Iron Sword, 1 Firee Essence

Stage 10 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 9 Iron Sword, 1 Firee Essence

Stage 11 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 10 Iron Sword, 1 Firee Essence

Stage 12 Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 11 Iron Sword, 1 Firee Essence

Iron Broad sword: 1 Stage 12 Iron Sword, 1 Firee Essence

 

Meaning there would be a total of 13 mixes for the Iron Broad Sword (not including all the mixes needed for the Iron Sword, or the bars if we use this for every skill) which would lead to the items needing alot longer to be made but still giving the same exp.

 

One down side on this is you would think it needs alot more art work in game, but you could have it so it divids the picuter into how many different stages there are and then as you do each stage it shows 1 more sections.

 

so for the iron broad sword there will be 13 sections showing a new part ever time you make a mix with the other sections not be show in a different color, like white or see though.

 

Only problem is i believe this would need quite abit more programing and maybe extra bandwith as it has to track alot more different types of items but maybe there is a way to work around this, i dont however know much about programing

Edited April 25, 2006 by Kedan

[Atlantis]

I think Kedan's idea is a good one, apart from 2 modifications

1) Have the stage 1 sword require bars and such, not a totally different sword.

2) Less stages, More like 4 for Iron Broad, but 20 for titanium serp

[Kedan]

the idea of using an older sword is to increase the demand for them, as atm the is no need to use any sword buy tit long or serp, this way you would need all other sword, which either makes it take long to make a serp, or brings in money for lower level manuers making them swords

[Longsh0t]

We are talking only about price changes, formulas changes, and exp changes (for produced items and summoning).

 

Your ideas are good Kedan, but looking at what entropy said, we can only tweak the furmulas, prices and experience given.

 

Ill give an example (working from top-level item to low-level):

 

Armed Skeleton

Experience given: 1100

Items required: 1 Steel long sword, 8 Bones

 

Steel Long sword

Experience given: 140

Items required: 1 Iron Broad Sword, 1 Steel bar, 2 Fire Essences

NPC buy price: 425 gc

 

Iron Broad Sword

Experience given: 110

Items required: 1 Iron Sword, 1 Iron bar, 2 Fire Essences

Npc buy price: 250 gc

 

Iron Sword

Experience given: 100

Items required: 4 Iron bars, 2 Fire Essences

Npc buy price: 125 gc

 

Steel Bars

Experience given: 140

Items required: 5 Iron ore, 2 coal , 4 Fire Essences

Npc buy price: 30 gc

 

Iron Bars

Experience given: 120

Items required: 4 Iron ore, 1 coal , 2 Fire Essences

Npc buy price: 20 gc

 

Iron Ore

Experience given: 28

Items required: none

Npc buy price: 2 gc

 

Coal

Experience given: 25

Items required: none

Npc buy price: 1.75 gc

 

Fire Essence

Experience given: 5

Items required: 1 Sulfur, 1 Red rose, 1 Red Snapdragon

Npc buy price: 2.75 gc

 

etc...

 

Edit:

This will cause summoners to buy steel long swords, manufacturers to make swords and buy lower level swords (maybe they also make the lower level swords themselves), increase demand for iron bars & steel bars. There is also a minumum level of profit for Bar-makers, in case there arent any manufactures online.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Longsh0t