Separating EXP gain from Item creation

[dain]

Well maybe a better idea is for you to collect the ingredients yourselves and bring them to the training area in order to gain exp from the items you make.

 

Or maybe instead of training "areas" we have training "items" Special items that you make with ingredients but do not actually get the item.

 

This is basically the system we have now. You gather the indrediants, take them to Trik, and sell him back the manufactured product. And the "special" items are the one or two items you can make without take huge losses when selling them back to Trik.

[sTroker]

This would just hurt the people that want to make potions/HE for thier own use.

 

I could really care less what my alch/pot skills are, as long as I can make what I need without too many failures. I don't want to sit around and train them making things that I can't use for training up the skills I want to train.

[Jezebelle]

hm..I dont realy like this idea.

 

As it is now, you level by game experience, meny skills are connected to eachother and you level up on those skills to get to the level you wanna be.

The 'schoo'lsystem' that is suggested now, can make anyone into a manuer, without having to deal with the hassle of all the experience you need (and not just level-experience, but also game tactics and all)

 

Not to mention all the books you need to read before you can manu f.e. plate sets.

 

Roja, you suggested paying the NPC that trains you..wouldnt that mean that only the rich ones amongst us would get high levels?

 

That wouldnt be fair..I know lots of players that work their buts of to buy the ingreds to level up, but dont have a penny saved..

 

Its sounds a bit like Tale in the Desert..I go their every now and a gain to visit an old friend..and I must say..i dont like that system very well..

 

But, as you stated allready Roja..LOTS need to be worked out before using this system, and Im sure we all will come up with a compromise

 

*hugs*

 

Jez

[jamincollins]

Well maybe a better idea is for you to collect the ingredients yourselves and bring them to the training area in order to gain exp from the items you make.

Or as somone else mentioned, to pay the npc.

 

Or maybe when making items you get very very little exp, and when you go in the training area you get a lot more.

 

Or maybe instead of training "areas" we have training "items" Special items that you make with ingredients but do not actually get the item.

 

Again this was just a base idea that can grown and is in need of ideas from you guys

 

As stated in my initial comment I see getting free ingredients as a major problem. This will result in very fast leveling in my opinion. I think getting your own ingredients is a small price to pay for getting increased XP.

 

I don't care for the ideal of "training items", it just seem so contrived. Stick with the training areas (or schools). Perhaps have a one-way storage in these locations to provide students with access to their raw materials.

 

Also, once the item is made give XP for it and take it away immediately, this will prevent any possible bug or loop hole that will allow the items to leave the training area and thus give both XP and goods.

 

Just a suggestion, but I think the XP inside these areas should be at least 2x what is currently being awarded for item creation. However, outside these areas it should be ~1/2 of what it is. This would better simulate gaining knowledge from instruction.

 

Also, what about in game player to player mentoring? Having a player with a higher skill tutor a player with a lower skill. This could be accomplished by requiring the players to be in close proximity and for the higher level to agree to teach the lower level (through some client interface) then each time the student attempts to mix the instructor would need to click mix (or teach) too. Then the student would get increased XP for each success during such instruction.

[Roja]

Well we also were thinking of the idea just to make these workshop areas to JUST be places where you can gain more exp from making your items. Outside of them you wouldn't get much exp.

[Kougria]

I really dont like this idea. It would make lvling way way too easy, and it would hurt the people that have worked very hard for their lvls on their own. I like the system on its own atm, even tho there may be a lot of items in the market. But I also think if you changed it, it could work, below i wrote how i think it should be if it is implemented.

 

Initially I don't like this idea since it means making items twice (once for XP, once for selling).

 

But if it were to work, maybe something like apprenticeship modifier:

 

While at the trainer, you get MORE xp (like a god bonus) since you have a skilled eye guiding you.

 

Once you hit an "master" level, you get the same xp for making the item if you are at the NPC or not since he can teach you nothing more.

 

For that matter, a sliding scale. You get MUCH less when doing it away from the NPCs. As you level and start to master the item the difference becomes less and less till you hit the Master level and then you can make it anywhere.

 

Also, if we do have such trainers, we will need many for each skill since concentration of players could make it hard to work in that area or talk to that NPC.

 

As I was reading through the responses, I kinda of liked Kit's idea because you would still get xp for making the items on your own and the difference would change as your lvl changes but I still think it would be way too easy to lvl.

 

Id say make the people gather the resources needed as usual, and have them bring the items to the npc to get the extra xp.

 

Also you would have to choose whether you want extra xp or want to make the items and keep them (since you wouldnt keep them if you made the items by the npc), which would make having a higher lvl much more useful if you made it having the sliding scale kit was talking about because then it wouldnt be that hard to choose since there wouldnt be that much of a difference in xp between making it on your own or making the stuff at the npc.

 

Also make it so theres a limit on how much you can create at one time. Therefore, its not that easy to lvl and it would also decrease the amount that items are made.

[Dunian]

Does this go for alchemy, jewelry (crafting), and potion making too? or just manufacturing?

[Learner]

I think you should still need to supply the items used in making things for leveling up! Otherwise the demand for those items will drop drastically. So, you can either make things to sell or make things to help level up with the items you have.

 

Those characters going for exp would get more exp, but no items. Those going for the items get some exp and the item. Probably use the special area to determine who gets the extra exp.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Learner

[Ornitorrinco]

1 - I like the idea of special place instead of special items.

2 - IMO, you should get exp both ways, but way more in learning areas

3 - You should harvest ingreds to use in special areas. But there should be a way for them to be taken directly from your storage, or have such areas very close to storage.

4 - Food is the players responsibility.

[Fyvle]

It's a nice idea, from my point of view. I think it should be relegated to the lower skill levels though. NPC Masters - or any trade master in real life - can only train someone so far.

 

Take the trades for example. You go to college to learn the basics, and graduate a Joureyperson. As you progress with training and work throughout your career you complete tests of skill and become more accredited and move up in the trade. Eventually you become a master craftsperson or master tradesperson.

 

So I say if you implement this, you should do it with the lower skill levels... say skills under 40? After that, we'd earn exp as we typically do.

 

That should help put a damper on the "market flooding". If Market Flooding is your main concern here, then I think it would also help if all those useless items we produced suddenly became useful for something other than exp. Perhaps we could be allowed to create items that are available only through NPCs eg: wooden shields, quarterstaffs, etc. More variety of marketable items would also help to water things down... ask any market analyst. There are a plethora of new items in C2 that haven't even been activated yet... I'm want my dandelion wine!

[DrMabuse]

Or maybe when making items you get very very little exp, and when you go in the training area you get a lot more.

 

1st:

I explain why I do not like it.

Every player has "earned" the experience. For example, I have earned my experience in crafting.

 

I made 2500 Dis rings, 1000 damage rings, votd, naralik rings etc in the last days, total 5000 rings.

Every day 1 crafting level. Is this too fast?

 

I think not. Because I played 3-4 month, 12-18 hours a day to get the ore, fire essences, water essences, bars, all the ingredients I need. 3-4 month of hard work to get 5 crafting levels.

 

With this system, you divide the player in 2 classes. The one class will make items, the other class will make experience. This is wrong.

 

2nd:

market. I doubt that this system will change market. For example, the only effect on market after the cooldown-system was that the price of HE has increased from 4gc to 8gc.

 

If you want to control market, then put an NPC in the game who buys rings/medallions. For manu'ed items there is Trik.

Trik buys, for example, steel long sword for 425gc. So no player will sell steel long sword below Trik's price.

 

Why not put a NPC for crafter in the game? IF the NPC buys dis rings for 100gc, no one will sell below.

 

3rd:

Instead of thinking about "how can we change the game system", why not put more items in the game? I'm thinking of more rings/medallions. The only new item for crafters was Ring of Power. There is also a new, empty continent. Why not fill it up with more NPC/quests/etc?

Edited January 14, 2006 by DrMabuse

[Kougria]

I think you should still need to supply the items used in making things for leveling up! Otherwise the demand for those items will drop drastically. So, you can either make things to sell or make things to help level up with the items you have.

 

Yes that is sort of what I said in my first reply, They would have to choose to make for the extra xp at the npc, or make for use. But if they had the sliding scale it would make it less of a choice for the higher lvls, which would make having a higher lvl much better, which would make people still want to lvl up.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Kougria

[Tanyia]

I think I like this idea...it seems to make more sense than what we do right now. Here are my thoughts:

 

1.) You should have to provide your own ingredients. Then, the leveling is not "free," nor does it cater to only the rich. Also, you won't have "exp" and "item" players then...everyone will have to get experience in order to make items to sell/use.

 

2.) It seems to make sense with this system to add required levels for making items. Coupled with #1, this might help fix the current problem of some items going completely unused.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Tanyia

[McLane]

as described in the first post, i think this is a bad idea. when manufacturing something in real life, i learn from it. when manufacturing something with instructions / an instructor, i learn more. so this should be also realized in game. when creating an fire essence of my own, i get 8 exp points, when doing it under instruction i get 14 or so. taking all exp points away from manu (or similar) outside of "practising areas" is a very bad idea.

 

what would be the next step? fighting courses? magic school?

most people fight animals for exp points. selling or using the things they drop is a good side effect (for me). many people heal the newbs on the IP beam for xp. good thing for the newbs, but wanna send them to magic school for that?

 

in that case, i won't take long till half the maps are training areas with side effect you haveee no "use" for the things you do/manufacture.

 

summarizing: it should be like in real life, when i do something, i learn from it (keep it as it is). if you want to make the market stable then create so training areas for more exp (explanation above), but please don't take exp points out of the training areas. it would take the "target" from the game (as in real life: getting better by doing it)

 

just my oppinion

[vitez]

In general I think idea is quite good. However, I think it is unfair NOT to gain experience with "common" way (when we make stuff on other places, not in "<skill> Teacher" area.

 

Another thing is this - theory and practice are separate things. They are both very important and I would slightly develop this Entropy's idea by having both theory (teacher NPC) and practice (real making of stuff, like we do today) mixed together somehow...

Edited January 14, 2006 by Vitez

[trollson]

Perhaps I'd better put my take on this into the thread. This may be more basic than the realisation described by Roja, but there are many ways to achieve the same goals. I will certainly repeat parts of what has already been described in this thread, so apologies in advance.

 

Problem: Unstable economy. Industry is not governed by a supply-and-demand relationship, but on the requirement to mass produce for experience.

 

Objective: Stable economy. Restore a 'natural' supply-and-demand balance in production. Encourage items creation to meet economic demands, not personal levelling.

 

The only way this can be achieved (and be persistent) is to seperate tasks which produce experience, and tasks which produce items. We cannot create some 'happy compromise', since an item's experience value has to be set by the game developers, while the monetary value is at the mercy of the economy (limited by the buy/sell price from NPCs).

 

Simplest solution I could think of:

1. Remove experience from all item-creation tasks.
   
2. Add several new recipes for each skill, exactly like creation tasks except yield no product but do give experience (related to their recommended level).
   

This way, you would still have to acquire the ingredients to perform either creation or training tasks. As your skill level increases, you can try more difficult training tasks which give greater experience.

 

Extension ideas:

• Still give experience for making enhanced or modifiable items -- something exceptional has happened, you can learn from it.
  
• Could have equivalent 'critical' successes in training giving some rare item -- a bit of a cheap thrill in what is a mundane task.
  
• Training tasks could be expensive in ingredients and (maybe) time, but yield much more experience. Less clicking, less repetition. This is just a game-balance thing.
  
• Items which consume exotic (enhanced) ingredients may remain rare enough to justify experience for their creation.
  
• Some tasks could product items whose sole purpose is for use in training. A new sub-economy?
  
• Items which are only useful for sale to NPCs could be considered training tasks already (Fox Scarfs?).
  

Tutor or Master Craftsman NPCs:

• Nice role-play addition which could add colour if done right.
  
• More work to implement.
  
• Can make use of the schools, forges, and workshops which have been appearing in the world
  
• Low level training should always be available without the need for a Tutor.
  

[bartsimpsion]

I do not think that this is a very good idea, I like the idea of having to harvest to make items. With this in the game people with the most money well get the most levels. Now what I think would be good is you have to get the items. Then you have a choice of bringing them to the trainer or making the item.

[Blodoks]

I don't like this idea.

 

Atm, I need almost 7,000 srs for a single summoning level.

I got level 69 potions thanks to srs I made and I used (without

to sell a single srs).

Now no more exp for that I produce?

 

Other hand, free exp... privacy on... and nobody can understand

really what some players are doing.

 

Blodoks

[Ortak]

Losing all my exp for for whenever I want to make things for myself or others? That would effectively stop me from playing anymore. I think that training areas are a good idea, but no experience anywhere else is a very bad one.

[The_Piper]

Well, i like an idea like this, it will bring a little bit more role play into the game and a little bit more realism.

 

See, i have tons of leather pants in my storage or sold to Trik, but, whoops, out of the sudden, i can make ti short swords quite easily. Funny.

 

So, if we would have something like the following, it would be more realistic:

 

(talking about manu in that case)

 

1. remove the needed books for manu from the book sellers, you will get it from the manu master.

 

2. go to the manu master to start an education. You pay a fee, get some books to read.

 

3. you get free stuff to make, lets say, in the beginning 10 fur gloves and 10 fox scarfs.

 

3. when you return the items to the manu master, you get a given amount of manu xp.

 

4. now, while reading the books, you level manu by making fur gloves and fox scarfs.

 

5. when youre done with the books, you return to the manu master, pay a fee, and continue your education. You get some books again, some free stuff to make 10 leather helmets. Return the helmets to him, you get again an amount of manu XP.

 

 

and so on and so on and so on...

 

So, you learn from him how to make items (knowledge=books), you practice by making the items with the free stuff.

 

We can have a rank system, depending how far youre gone in your education "Congratz, you are now a certified level 3 manufacturer". They could get an undroppable item like a unique cloak or hat as a proof they have done the education.

 

And ppl can use this rank to proof that they can make a type/group of items now.

 

Or simply to show off

 

Well, just my 2 cents.

 

Piper

[Baron_Samedi]

It's an interesting concept.To address the the mass leveling idea,here is what I saw somewhere else.Lets say you are training making armor.You try to make a leather helmet we'll say.If you fail you lose your investment/ingredients.If you succeed you sell it to the NPC for the same money as it cost to produce.So far you are gainng exp in the skill with the possibility of selling only to the NPC.As you become more skilled you reach a level where the item is trivial to produce.You can still make the item but because of your skill level you no longer get exp making it.This means you must now try to make a higher skilled item to continue to gain exp in that skill.Along with this you get the possibility of failure and exp until you master that item.As you gain exp it too becomes trivial and you must try more difficult items in order to continue getting exp in the skill.In other words,a highly skilled armor maker can't power level by making 5k leather helmets because their skill is high and they no longer get exp making that item.The risk is the possible failure and loss of materials/cash while making things.The reward is the exp for that skill.The market would no longer be flooded with cheap,low skills goods and people with high skills would be in demand to make/sell their goods.You don't make money while training the skill because the NPC buy price is the same as your cost to produce but you can fail and lose money/materials.It's the,"No pain,no gain." theory.Seems to work there.

[Infamous]

simple solution to reduce overflow:

let every thing you craft/potion/manu/whatever give the same exp so people don't make the thing that give most exp so the market overflows with that item that gives most exp

[Roja]

Hm, the idea of mastering an item you're making is an interesting idea too. You only get exp for that item until you reach a certain lvl. You get no more exp from it because you've learned all you can-mastered making it.

[bkc56]

I don't think this is the right solution at this time. It feels like a very complex solution to what may be a simple problem. I think we should try simple solutions first, and if they don't work then go to more complicated ones.

 

If the basic problem is to much supply due to mass producint items for experience, then we should try what was suggested way back before cooldown. We should increase the mix times AND the experience gained per item. That will result in less items on the market but the same experience per hour of work. No new complex systems to implement or learn; just some minor modifications to existing values.

 

If that doesn't fix the problem, then we could investigate more complex solutions.

[Ermabwed]

I dislike the idea for reasons mostly already stated.

If the idea is the market: see DrMabuse's post. Implement NPCs that control the price for an item.

If it's to limit the need for mass production to level: do something as suggested and implemented with fighting: exp gained when doing an item depends on the lvl you are at...

If the idea is realism: in RL u get paid while being an apprentice (you don't keep stuff and you don't supply ingredients) and you still gain experience when doing things outside of school and you usually don't apprentice more than one craft at a time. So for realism one had to serve a master for say 3 to 5 EL years to become a master himself and then one could move on to a different craft. I don't think anybody would want that...