Separating EXP gain from Item creation

[ttlanhil]

sweet, mad level grinding!

okay, so there's some problems still. this could actually make the click-fest to level worse, because you don't have to stop to mine more materials

you also need to add an appropriate cost to this teaching, which may be the same as what you do to stop the mad grind. without some cost (gc may not be enough, because it doesn't stop camping the trainer), this equates to free XP

reducing the item flood, however, it will do to some extend... if you need cash to do this, then (lower level) people will be forced to mix training with production for cash

basically... there's merit to the idea, but the implementation will take a fair bit of thought into specific details

[shadowmaster25x]

Yea how about the npc tht gave you the stuff to make the items pays you (not much but some ok gc) for making the items for him

[DarElik]

I don't particularly care for it myself. I kind of like the system the way it is.

 

I get the feeling that this will create new problems with overcrowding at these manufacturing places. I'd probably end up spending most of my time there.

 

With the current system, it complicates things just enough to make it interesting and you end up levelling in several different areas to make a certain item, i.e., you have to mine sulfur, harvest roses & snaps, make FEs, mine coal, mine gold or silver ore, make bars, use those to make gold or silver rings, then mine rubies or sapphires or diamonds, polish them, and then use the rings you made to make the different tele rings, for instance.

[DrMabuse]

bad idea.

 

a player with manu 0 goes in this special area, the npc gives ingredients, he levels from manu 0 to manu 50, he goes out, and then he makes iron plate?

 

keep the old system

[Ghrae]

Initially I don't like this idea since it means making items twice (once for XP, once for selling).

 

But if it were to work, maybe something like apprenticeship modifier:

 

While at the trainer, you get MORE xp (like a god bonus) since you have a skilled eye guiding you.

 

Once you hit an "master" level, you get the same xp for making the item if you are at the NPC or not since he can teach you nothing more.

 

For that matter, a sliding scale. You get MUCH less when doing it away from the NPCs. As you level and start to master the item the difference becomes less and less till you hit the Master level and then you can make it anywhere.

 

Also, if we do have such trainers, we will need many for each skill since concentration of players could make it hard to work in that area or talk to that NPC.

[fitboyjim]

maybe delay shud be introduced in forging area so you don't level really fast in manu

[Tordek]

Excellent idea. I think this actually would fix all market issues. Nobody would make dozens of items and sell them underpriced. This way if you make something you clearly make it for profit or self-use.

 

Good job.

[babaganeuche]

i think that is a great idea, will spare me from selling 1k leather helms every time i level

[mr00wka]

Very good idea in my oppinion, but what will happen with our current skills and knowledge, also would there be only one worksop for one skill or would they be spread around the lands/continents?

[Roja]

To answer a few questions:

 

1. there'd be many areas throughout all the maps

2. this only includes skills that make items, so fighting, summoning, magic are not affected.

3. nothing happens with your current skill levels.

 

Obviously a lot more thought is required.

Please do not post here just "i like this!" or "i don't like this"...go into details as to why, post paragraphs, essays. HELP us out, don't spam up the place.

[Evalin]

sounds like it's going to be much easier to lvl that way, though it would help the market with less items available.

 

there should be a cost to the training though, else people can train constantly.

 

one question though, what about non producing skills, like magic, summoning, and attack/defense. do we go to a place to train now, or those stay the same?

 

edit: hrm, seems it's already been answered :lol:

Edited January 14, 2006 by Evalin

[LadyReni]

Interesting.

My question is (before I can say if I like it or not): how would it work for summoning?

Right now when I am 'training' I let my animals run around some places and get me ingredients for another summoning 'training'... If you put summoning in the same cathegory as manu/potions/alch/craft this way of 'training' will not be possible. Which means my summoned animals will not get me any furs/meat etc

One more thing ... if the ingredients for 'training' at special NPCs will be totally free... it may be too easy to level up.

That is just my first thoughts.

[Cycloonx]

This idea is really dificult to make an opinion on, oh well I try to explain what i'm thinking:

 

* I like the idea, it's claimed more than one time that the exp system causes the flooding of a lot of items. So this idea can get rid of this 'problem'

 

* When the exp system stays the same it will get boring to get some lvl's I think, although you don't need to get the raw materials (and maybe also not the food?). You will need to make so much items there in that place that it will ask a lot of time and you get no money for it (no items to sell). But it will help the market.

 

* Another idea of my and thevoice: Let's change the exp to something like this:

You have to start with making the easiest item in row, you have to make like 5 perfect items untill you can go on to next item. Let it work like the magic system (recommended lvl = the level needed to cast the spell)

 

* Another point we need to keep in mind, will leveling not become too easy? Will everyone be level 30+ in a skill in let's say a week? I think we need to maintain the difficulty of gaining levels. And this will be hard to combine with the idea of special training places.

 

* When having the idea above in mind I would say: You still need to get all raw materials yourself and bring them to the training place. When in the training place, you can start making the item and get experience for it (when making outside the place you will get no exp). So it will be a long run to the training place and mass production of items for exp will stop (and maybe do something like this: As reward for the training master you give half of your items you made to him). People who have a level that they like don't come to training places anymore and only make their items outside and gain no more exp.

 

* You could make like 5 manu schools (or more) and each place got his own specialities, e.g. You can only train on iron swords in ws, shields only in pl, and so on...

 

I hope I gave some nice ideas that could help to develop this idea, and I would really like to see it implented

[Alyot]

I REALLY like the idea of a teacher and attending classes. I work in societies (SCA) where this is "how it's done"...just like in the days simulated by the EL world.

 

I wouldn't mind attending class to be able to attempt things that I would normally have to spend months of play time in order to get to a level to even try to manu, alchem, or craft some the items that this idea implies that you would have to ability to "try out" at will.

 

I also think the EL economy would benefit from more players having access to more access to more areas of the game much earlier with inclusion of classes. This would keep players that might otherwise be frustrated by, or restricted by the amount of time they have available to play.

 

Hassah!

 

Yours,

Alyot

[flinto]

This will work with manufacturing yes - but what about harvesting - do I train in harvesting and then what about fighting should we only get experience when fighting the monsters and not PKing? What I am saying (I think) is that I like this idea but it should not be no experience for your own made items (to get it you have to expend effort collecting the raw materials). However, I do like this idea assuming we get all the materials we need including food (feasting pots for free) you go into the area with nothing in your inventory and leave with nothing.

 

However, what is to stop someone like me just sitting there turning out thousands of items and having a high OA in no time at all? Where is the difficulty I can just sit there making magic ess at +85 for several hours or tit serps for hours - what experience

 

Good idea in principle but not sure it will work in practice. It might fix the market prices but I think there will be few items for sale as people wil make for themselves and friends and there will be no surplus.

 

I am worried that this might be the last straw for the market, of course it may be what it needs.

 

So at the end of my rambling thoughts am I for or against it? Yes (I cant make my mind up)

 

Andrew

PS i see no voting buttons

[dain]

It would be too easy to level. Right now, to make iron swords, you need to either make iron bars or buy iron bars. With this new idea, the market for bars would suffer. The big challenge in manufacturing is getting the ingrediants together. If the NPC just gave you the ingrediants, it would be too easy.

 

I don't really like this new idea.

 

Instead, I think NPCs should pay a better price for items (at _least_ the cost of the ingrediants, so we don't have to take losses on items). That would reduce the flood of items on the market, and set a floor to market prices. Right now, most NPC prices on most manufactured items is below the cost of the ingrediants.

 

I personally believe that manufacturing should take much much longer per item, maybe similar to reading a book. You start making an item, and 200 or 500 game minutes later, you (might) get the item. Of course, you could do other things while waiting (like when you read books). Also, the experience received per item would need to increase proportionally, as well. Manufacturing would be a much different system than potion / essence production. This would more acurately reflect the fact that it take more time manufacture an item, than to make/collect the ingrediants for it. This would also reduce the flood of items on the market.

 

Those are my ideas.

[thunderous]

Hi,

 

the Idea is not bad, but i don't think it is really fair, no leveling is for free. And if an npc would buy stuff for a good price the market would not be spammed with this stuff.

 

If there will be a training area i think everybody have to buy a ticket to get in and get then ingredients for specified Points. 1% XP of the players actual Points for example (would be less than 1% XP, because of fails)

Else they would be level up easy at this place and then spam the market with Iron Plates or things like that.

[Benit149]

This is an idea that Trollson brought up. Currently, to level up you need to make items. This results in a LOT of items being made, too many than is ever needed, flooding the market.

 

What if we separate "leveling up" from "making items"? You'd only make items because you need them, or to make money by selling or trading them.

If you want to level up and gain exp, you would instead not create an item, but train, at a special workshop area in the game(like that forge area in votd).

 

There can be a NPC there, and you go to him to train. Maybe he says something like, "I will train you in iron sword making. To become good enough to do it yourself(thus creating an item), you need to practice!" He will give you the ingredients to make X amount of that item. You cannot leave the area with those items though(so you can't just get free ingredients)..maybe when you walk out they will dissapear, or you'll get a message or something. So that way, you can lvl up as much as you want, without flooding the market with items.

 

If you want to make an item yourself, just do it as you do now, but you wouldn't get exp.

 

 

What do you guys think? Suggestions/comments/ideas needed.

 

I don't have a solid opinion about this ATM, but I do have a couple of questions.

 

If you stay in the forge, do you get an infinite number of free items from the NPC to work on solely in there, or do you have to bring simple items along with you (or keep in storage) and they provide the hard-to-get items for lower level people? What if, as you level up, you would have to bring advanced items as you get stronger and more capable? Like a total newbie couldn't make Air Essences so easily, but as he got stronger, he would be required to store the lilies, then the silver ore as he got better, and then the ultimate by storing diamonds (hence all three) if he wanted to get the exp. If he didn't, then he can just go to storage and make AEs to his heart's content w/o getting the exp.

 

Will cooldown and hunger levels be affected in the forges?

 

Will there be forges for almost all skills? I'm pretty concerned about an alchemy forge b/c it's the be all end all skill for most of the other skills, so lots of people would be crowding the alch forge if there was only one.

 

Where do the made items in the forges go? Do they just disappear?

 

It's a great idea for crafting and manufacturing because getting the ingredients for those related items is difficult so the exp comes very slowly.

[bep]

I like the idea some new schools to practice any skill.

There is another solution for the fload of items. That is to create new items like teleport rings for c2 use only when u are on c2. or steel helmet etc....

[TheMadToker]

I do not think that this is a very good idea, limitations would have to be implemented or people will be leveling up far too fast and any sense of accomplishment would be dimished by that fact. Also, characters like mine, with an exceptionally high rationality would have a huge advantage over others. As it is now, I am limited to how many things I can make at one time due to a low carrying capacity, but if I were to have everything simply handed to me, I could rack in XP ad infinitum. I would be able to not only enjoy my XP bonus for a high rationality, but I wouldn't have to worry about gathering a single item, or making a single iron bar. Ingrediants such as those are heavy, and gathering and making everything needed is part of the difficulty. Limitations would have to be applied, much like our harvesting limits now, but that in itself I also dislike... I dont want my training to be cut off in various skills just because everything is easier to make. I spend hours gathering ingrediants for a reason, to be able to sit in a storage and crank out items for XP. And what of feasting potions? They are mandatory now as far as serious manufacturing is concerned, and there is no way this will work until they are at least stackable.

 

Also I don't see how this would help the market, people would simply make things to use, and production for the sole purpose of selling would diminish greatly. And are we talking just armor and weapons here? Or everything, such as essences? The fighters would love this, sice they get most of their money from fighting anyway, but the people who do not fight, and make items for xp and money will not want to waste their time making difficult items for profit and no xp.... such as higher level weapons, armor or potions. Prices would drastically increase as productiong would slow to a crawl, and I forsee the market becoming much worse, people will simply resort to harvesting lilacs when in need of cash.

 

No, I dislike this idea, even though if would give my character a huge advantage over some others. Levels would come far to easily and any sense of challenge will be lost.

[Melvyn]

There is no market flood. There's a food shortage and not too well chosen path for skill ups. Various items in the skill trees are next to useless, have a steep learning curve and/or require rare animal furs and sell at a significant loss to NPC. This results in a flood of the *same* low food-cost, harvest based items.

 

For some of these items this is useful - like FE's, which fund new players and are needed in high ammounts by high level smiths, jewelers and alchemists. Anything Fur based is the opposite right now.

 

The idea would be useful if it stops at a certain skill level, like you can get the first 20 levels for free at an NPC, the rest requires making items in bulk.

Another useful implementation would be studying at an NPC for "failure save abilities" as those are most mystical and food-costly annoyances in crafting skills.

For instance, for each skill, one could buy up to 5 failure save abilities, each of which give a +10% save chance on "Failure with ingredients" and/or lower food cost of "normal failures".

 

My 2c.

[freeone3000]

I think that there should be a reduced food drain for things made through training. Carrying feasting potions to get experience and no items?

 

Other than that, great idea.

[Roja]

Well maybe a better idea is for you to collect the ingredients yourselves and bring them to the training area in order to gain exp from the items you make.

Or as somone else mentioned, to pay the npc.

 

Or maybe when making items you get very very little exp, and when you go in the training area you get a lot more.

 

Or maybe instead of training "areas" we have training "items" Special items that you make with ingredients but do not actually get the item.

 

Again this was just a base idea that can grown and is in need of ideas from you guys

[Istiach]

u can also create a forge in pk area where u would get even more exp bonus.

[xand]

You said practice on iron sword for example. What if you want to be able to do Iron swords, but can only do leather pants? Would you still do lots of Leather pants till you can do iron swords with a small chance?

 

How about the place to practice increases your chance slightly?

Then you could start on iron swords earlier. Then practice till, say, 60% success under help of the blacksmith. Then you are satisfied and leave. Outside and without help and good equipment (like good hammer and amboss lol) you can only do iron swords at, say, 40 or 30% chance. But you _can_ do it.