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Roja

Cool Down - how to improve it

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This thread will be ONLY for your suggestions on how we can improve the cool down. Again, they must be well thought out and backed up by as many details as you can think of.

 

Please do not confuse this thread with the other cool down thread here-which is for your general opinions, ideas, and experiences with the cool down.

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I can't put a long essay here, but I would like to see the mixing times back together with the cooldown.

We can make most of the items too fast now and mass production is even easier at the moment. Each item got the same mixing time now, and I really prefered the mixing times like they were before :)

 

Except from decreasing the cooldown of fruits and veggies with 5 or 10 secs (so fire essences could be made at the same speeds as before to help the newbies) everything looks fine for me on the cooldown.

Edited by Cycloonx

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That actually is a point I wanted to ask all of you: Do you want the mixing times back as they were?

(note also that it is almost 100% positive that the cool downs for some things WILL be reduced a little in an update)

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That actually is a point I wanted to ask all of you: Do you want the mixing times back as they were?

(note also that it is almost 100% positive that the cool downs for some things WILL be reduced a little in an update)

How about putting the cooldown on the tools used and reducing the food cooldown? That would allow you the make a shield, eat, make a potion, make a bar, eat, wait for the hammer to finish cooling down, then repeat. If this is done you'd need to retest to see if the manu times need adjusting or not.

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That actually is a point I wanted to ask all of you: Do you want the mixing times back as they were?

(note also that it is almost 100% positive that the cool downs for some things WILL be reduced a little in an update)

How about putting the cooldown on the tools used and reducing the food cooldown? That would allow you the make a shield, eat, make a potion, make a bar, eat, wait for the hammer to finish cooling down, then repeat. If this is done you'd need to retest to see if the manu times need adjusting or not.

I love that Learner, I was thinking about Essense though, Is there some way we can make creating essense this way? If we reduce the cooldown on food items, it will make essense making all the quicker. Perhaps if we bring back the mixing times for essense that would solve the overproduction. So, bring back the mixing times for essense and implement tools cooldown so that manu/crafting will be set up right.

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That actually is a point I wanted to ask all of you: Do you want the mixing times back as they were?

(note also that it is almost 100% positive that the cool downs for some things WILL be reduced a little in an update)

How about putting the cooldown on the tools used and reducing the food cooldown? That would allow you the make a shield, eat, make a potion, make a bar, eat, wait for the hammer to finish cooling down, then repeat. If this is done you'd need to retest to see if the manu times need adjusting or not.

I love that Learner, I was thinking about Essense though, Is there some way we can make creating essense this way? If we reduce the cooldown on food items, it will make essense making all the quicker. Perhaps if we bring back the mixing times for essense that would solve the overproduction. So, bring back the mixing times for essense and implement tools cooldown so that manu/crafting will be set up right.

 

Agreed, if we bring back the mix time on potions and essences, and put the cooldown on tools only, this will eliviate the food cooldown.

 

It's not the actual usage of the item that hurts the market, it's the over production. If the usage cooldown is reduced/eliminated, and manu/alch/pots times increased/tool cooldown implemented, the stockpiles will dwindle and push prices back up.

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I love that Learner, I was thinking about Essense though, Is there some way we can make creating essense this way? If we reduce the cooldown on food items, it will make essense making all the quicker. Perhaps if we bring back the mixing times for essense that would solve the overproduction. So, bring back the mixing times for essense and implement tools cooldown so that manu/crafting will be set up right.

I think it would be a good idea put the mixing times back to what they were for everything except Magic ess (These were hardly worth making before, because of the difficulties getting emeralds and the long mix times). As far as a cooldown for alchemy, they are needed by all skills except harvesting, so alot of them are needed. Also, there aren't any tools required for alchemy atm.

 

Maybe the mix time could be increased for manu items? This might decrease the number of low level items on the market.

Edited by Dunian

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How about putting the cooldown on the tools used and reducing the food cooldown?

In another thread (followed by a number of PMs) Entropy and I had a long discussion about cooldown on tools. The bottom line was that cooldown would only effect items you "used" and not items you simply needed to have in your inventory.

 

There's nothing to say that can't be changed, but when our conversation was done it was: no cooldown on tools.

 

As to the question of what to do with cooldown, that's hard. We really need to first answer: what is the purpose of cooldown? That is, what problem is it trying to solve, or what aspect of the game is it trying to modify?

 

I'm going to limit my comments to mixing as I just don't have the experience to comment on cooldown and it's effects on summoning or fighting.

 

Fundamentally both cooldown and larger mix times effect the rate of mixing items (mass production). We used to be limited by the mix times. It was very simple, you had to wait N seconds between each mix. Cooldown made it more complicated. You could mix every 2 seconds or so, but then you had to wait to eat. The use off FP's reduced that wait and so now we have some things (like metal bars) being made faster with cooldown than before with only mix delays.

 

Mass production is really easy to fix and doesn't require the use of cooldown. Simply increase the delay times so that fewer can be produced per hour of work (for example) and increase the experience given so that one will get the same experience per hour of work as before. The result is less items being made (for the same experience) and a slow increase in prices as inventory is reduced.

 

But I don't know if that was the point.

 

All that to say: I need a better understanding of why we want the cooldown effect in mixing (again, I can't comment on summoning or fighting) to be able to make a useful comment on how to best modify it.

 

Lacking the above, my gut feel would be: reduce food cooldown to more token levels (5-10 seconds) and return mix times to their former values. As an alternative test: increaase mix time by 25%-50% (of their former values) AND increase the experience per item by the same 25%-50%. Give that a month and see what the efects are (well, besides the bitching and moaning <_< ).

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Well, first of all I don't know if this is the right place to post it, but as this idea is connected to the cooldown, I thought this thread is probably the best place.

I don't usually post other people's opinions or suggestions, however when Scarr/Shivar asked me if I would do it, then this sounded sensible enough, in my opinion.

 

The idea would be to make the rings of power and damage rings hurt all participants in multiple combat, not just 1 like they do now. Due to the implementation of cooldown, one cannot click several rings in a row and the player who is being attacked is left with very few ways of defending themselves. I feel this option might make the much fought against cooldown a bit more pleasent for players.

 

Don't kill the messenger :)

 

Lumen

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Despite the faster mixing of alchemy items (bars, for instance) the prices for these items have actually increased on market, and they have pretty much stayed at the increased levels, despite the silly "lets sell for a big amount due to cooldown effect, even though its all stuff we made the week before cooldown came" rush to make a profit.

 

This has come from watching the market at early AM and late PM in GMT times, (prices do in fact vary greatly between the 2 due to timezones etc).

 

If the bars are being overproduced again, i have not yet seen a noticable drop in prices to reflect this, but welcome the idea of increasing the time it takes to use those bars in order to combat the possibility of mass produced items being made from them.

 

My market analysis however seems to indicate that fewer LE are being bought and sold on market, presumably because fewer people think summoning is a viable way to level OA anymore. Since the use of SR is limited by cooldown, i guess they can no longer mass summon. This in turn has also left the sale of raw meat to be the same as precooldown.

 

Mixing cooldown with mix times has my support, anyway. (But i still look forward to the game being ready for the increased exp being introduced so i can replan my leveling again)

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my first concern is that i just feel making certain essences production has been seriously affected by cooldown. whether it is that they use too much food up, so that making them offers little icnentive when weighed up against their potential use in either magic or other, or that the cooldown period for food is too long, i dont know. For instance, i was averaging 1 1/2 magic essence PER MINUTE, using fruit as my food source. perhaps the final exp given when using the essence is too little? As ess will become more scarce now, maybe there needs to an exp increase.

 

another point is that i see many manuers, alchemists and crafters disuaded from manufacturing, just because it has become quite a tedious task to do so. to new players, i think it might be a disuading factor against going into such 'professions' and taking the route of becoming a warrior, which isnt necassarily a bad thing, but it could be if it leaves behind fewer people going into the other skills and leaving them ill represented.

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Actually penni, that increase in warriors and decrease in other trades would automatically increase the market value of items as more would be used and less produced....on paper, anyway.

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To those ppl that say increase exp, that will just encourage ppl to start the mass production process again, yes maybe increase exp a bit, but if you over do it then it will defeat the purpose.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I still feel that highly consumbale items like essences should be easier to make, and maybe give even less exp. If so they will not be made for leveling, only for market demand. Market prices cannot be set by one person, or a shop that does not alter prices. Prices will always be set by demand, to many of something flood the market the value will go down, to few the value goes up. that's the way I see it anyhow.

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To those ppl that say increase exp, that will just encourage ppl to start the mass production process again, yes maybe increase exp a bit, but if you over do it then it will defeat the purpose.

I disagree. you could make production even slower but put XP up... end result being that you get the same XP per hour, but far fewer items to sell. and I'm pretty sure that time is the one true limiting factor

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Sorry if this isn't an appropriate post, but I just got real confused. Roja, in your post in the "should cooldown stay?" thread, you state that cooldown wasn't intended to save the market. However, Entropy introduced the cooldown idea smack in the middle of a thread about a crafter's strike (http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=18519&view=findpost&p=202880). Said strike was taking place because the crafting market was ruined (according to the strikers - not being a crafter, I can't judge).

 

Please answer bkc56's question, i.e., what is the purpose of cooldown? If not to help the market, then, as bkc56 pointed out, we really can't comment intelligently until we know why it was introduced.

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Entropy needs to answer that question as he was the one who proposed/planned/instated the cooldown. I just repeated that it was not meant to help the market as he told me that himself.

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I somehow am not touched by cooldown in very deep way. However I have some ideas and observations.

Cooldown and fighting:

Cooldown in fighting made some items completely unusable (damage rings/rops). The cooldown on it is way to high to make using them reasonable and sensible.

Another problem is fact that with cooldown, only way to win a fight is have one of these uber-powerful items (helm of life/mana, titanium therma serpent sword). Without them you will see your life bar going down/restore/life down/restore/life/down/res.... erm - sorry, cooldown on srs no restore bye bye. As from talking to fighters it seems that this situation makes the fight boring, since only tactics to flee is dis+tp ring - what takes whole satisfaction from it.

Good solution would be just make some testings and balance the cooldown on damage rings (make them much shorter), shortening times for srs and brs - not to the moment you won't have to worry about cooldown, but to the moment when using sensible tactics and fighting with your enemy you can use some tactics to have enough mana all the time. It would need lots of consultations with fighters, though.

 

Alchemy/Manufacturing/Crafting/Potioning:

Cooldown affects all of these ways of developing your character. Now it seems to be illogic that you wait longer to eat something than for doing complicated items. I heard that with Potions of Feasting average times of doing certain items is much lower now than it was.

Problem with cooldown on food is that the only sourse of it (feasting potion) is not stackable - so only way to make larger amounts of items (essences especially) is to gather all ingredients in storage. Same for rest skills.

Solution would be some balancing times of cooldown on food. Making feasting potions stackable won't be probably best way - since then the mass production would be way too easy. (Yeah, I hear this bitching now).

 

In general - I have to say I like the cooldown idea, however I strongly believe that in the nowaday's shape it's killing some fun in game. After tweakings, Entropy mentioned in the poll topic, it would work very good, but to have these the cooldown must stay in game (crossing fingers).

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I think the best way to stop the mass production is to remove a lot of the need for the mass production in the first place. To gain experience and therfore levels is to produce items and with the current experience level requirements this involves createing a mass ammount of items wich is the problem that the countdown is trying to fix.

 

The way that i would fix this would be to ajust all the experience curves for all skills. I think that the experience curves should be different for each skill instead of haveing them useing the same equation. By giveing them all different curves this should be used to make skills more even.

 

Other skills are perhaps to easy to start off with. It is possible for you to gain a resonable level in a fiew days in the case of alchemy it was possible to get to level 20 alchemy after playing for around 4-5 hours by makeing fire essences. It is a simular story with other base skills like harvestring and fighting where if you commit to it it is possible to gain levels quite fast.

 

I feel that skills that produce items especially Manufacturing and Crafting should be made a little easyer to advance to a resonable level in a much shorter time. As these skills require reading a lot of expensive books and require the production of bars which require ether alchemy or lots and lots of money it makes them harder to start and gain levels.

 

My suggestion is to therfore change the equations that are used to calculate when you gain levels to a per skill level and make some skills harder and some much easyer. Implementing this kind of changes will also need a huge amount of tweeking to get it right and will have some negetive side effects what we want is it possible to gain skills in a resonable time period but we don't want it too easy and we don't want mass production of the higher level items to flood the market too easily. This higher level mass production would be counteracted by the facts that higher level items require expensive and rare items like efe's which would slow this over production, also haveing a long countdown would also help to reduce this bad effect.

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(...)

I think that the experience curves should be different for each skill instead of haveing them useing the same equation.

(...)

i agree with that.

 

but instead of making leveling up easier (and take the risk, as said, of high level items flooding the market), why not making items that give much more exp points... and have a much higher failure rate, for instance ?

 

mass production would probably stop, but everybody would be bitching. :)

 

this way, you'll need to produce less items to level up... and a bit of luck aswell. ^_^

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Can it be done to where each item has a seperate cooldown? Like for instance, teleport rings. I tp'd to votd the other day from wsc to pick up some wolf furs. The trade took like 10 seconds. But I still had 30 seconds to wait to be able to use a wsc ring to go back to hauling feasting pots.

 

Some potions are like that too. Like when I summon, I drink a summoning pot (to reduce fail rate) and a reasoning pot (to get a bit more xp). I drink one, then have to wait for the other to cooldown, even tho they arent the same type of potion.

 

Another thing that didn't used to matter muchh is the amount of food that is used even when you fail. Before the cooldown it didn't make much of a difference that food dissapeared when you failed. But now, with the cost of fp's, it hurts. Can that be reduced, if not totally eliminated?

 

I agree with what I read about damage and rop's. They are virtually useless now. I have seen the price drop from 20-30k down to 6k on rop's. Damage rings dont sell much at all. The cooldown time on those is too extreme.

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Please answer bkc56's question, i.e., what is the purpose of cooldown? If not to help the market, then, as bkc56 pointed out, we really can't comment intelligently until we know why it was introduced.

Agreed.

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Please answer bkc56's question, i.e., what is the purpose of cooldown? If not to help the market, then, as bkc56 pointed out, we really can't comment intelligently until we know why it was introduced.

Agreed.

 

Maybe i'm speculating but as far as i understood the cooldown was introduced:

 

1) to stop the market inflation

2) to ensure another gc exit from the game

3) to make the mixing process different from a continuous click and drop

 

But i'm not a dev so this is only what i undersood so far....correct me pls

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Maybe i'm speculating but as far as i understood the cooldown was introduced:

1) to stop the market inflation

2) to ensure another gc exit from the game

3) to make the mixing process different from a continuous click and drop

But i'm not a dev so this is only what i undersood so far....correct me pls

 

Counterpoints:

  1. To solve market inflation/deflation you need to have the laws of supply-and-demand in play (i). Here, they are not, and cooldown does not address this. Manufacturing (et al) is primarily for experience, not to statisfy the market. Futher, with the removal of mixing times, manufacturing is quicker, production can be increased; only the aquisition of feasting potions have been added to the equation.
  2. No additional existing money is leaving the game. Money is free; harvest, get experience, sell, get gold coins. In planned production, any additional gold coin costs are offset by increased harvesting; no 'existing' cash leaves the economy though NPCs. Feasting potions for example, since they are not stackable, are easily offset by selling flowers or ores in WSC before buying from Mira. Plus, this also creates a surplus vial mountain, which will kill Harvey's vial business!
  3. Without the time delays, mixing is more of a continual click-fest than before. Not that the delay added anything to the quality of the gaming experience...

 

i) I already posted about seperating mixing receipes into 'training' ones which give experience but no item, and 'for profit' ones which give an item but no experience. This would mean that manufacture of items would be for the item (use or sale), and not for the exerience, and so enable supply-demand.

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Trollson I think that issue needs to be addressed in a separate thread..I'll make it and please post all your ideas concerning it B)

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