Jump to content
Eternal Lands Official Forums
Jride04

This is a market?

Recommended Posts

First off, I would like to say that lowering the buying prices from NPCs was a horrible idea. By taking money away from players, you are making it so they do not want to spend it. You guys keep making these changes each update, why don't you just make it a random occurance that things go stagnant in the market? NPCs will fluctuate prices every so often as to what they buy and sell at. At least give folks a chance to make a profit.

I make bars. People will not buy bars at market value. Why?

#1. They are hard working manuists who get no profit from Trik, or other players who believe you shouldn't make a profit in this game.

#2. They haven't calculated time vs. availability

#3. They see the decline in market, people lowering their prices on manued items, and cannot afford to buy alch'd bars because their overhead would be too great.

 

Me personally, I would rather sell to NPCs and keep the items out of the game than to lower my prices and tell people my time is worth less.

If Entropy, Rogue, Roja, or anyone else working on market problems would like to discuss this with me, or perhaps any other econ person in the game....by all means take the time to do so. This is just pure frustration, and further stagnates the market.

 

Maybe read an article or two on the great depression.....it might enlighten. In the meantime, I will just keep contributing to the stagnation by trying to keep my own butt afloat in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can only say it is true ... I'm selling now for a week 1k Magic Essences, and no one wants to buy (I think no one got money or want to spend it), also diss rings and he don't sell anymore ... I think the outflow of money is getting too big atm :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from what i've seen the whole NPC economy needs to b revamped - for starters it's cheaper to buy certain items than make them (ie cheaper to buy mana pots than make vials) the point of MAKING items is for ppl who can't afford or don't want to spend the money to buy the items outright i understand the dillema this poses in trying to also encourage player trading

 

i don't have a complete buy/sell list or i'd post a complete suggestion ( if mods or admins that have access to my email in this foum would like to help me out by sending me a list in word so that it's easy to change i'd appreciate it and would be glad to help) but i'll do the best i can now in general hopefully to give a rough idea of my proposal:

 

raw materials - harvestable items:

keep these VERY LOW:

like lilacs selling for .5gc is rediculous as fast as they harvest - fruits and veggies maybebut lilacs and other flowers should pry b around .1 - .2 gc-ea (selling - never bought them so can't give a good offer for a correction on that part yet but pry double or tripple) depending on their usefulness and ores should b low as well

 

 

next - manufactured ingredients - (ex: vials - bars)

these should be in a middle range all by themselves:

sold to npc's for just over what the NPC would charge for the total of the raw materials needed to make it making it still better to trade w/ players than deal w/ npc's but if the items were harvested the player could make a profit better than just selling the materials to the NPC or another player (making them willing to get up the cash selling the raw materials to get the books needed to make it (might require some tweeking to the book system or not as dev. sees fit but an idea <g>) if any was needed and NPC's selling them would naturally charge again double or tripple

 

 

finally - fully completed items - (weapons armor essences potions etc etc etc)

 

these should sell to the npc's for again just over what it'd cost to make the materials and again selling for double or tripple

 

i said selling for double or tripple because that will create the market for players to trade w/ eachother but should still b enough that they can still make small profits selling to NPCs if they couldn't find a buyer but would give them plenty of room to wheel and deal eachother for a competitive player market

 

and again - i'd be willing to help in any way that i can should my suggestion be considered and looked into being implimented

 

and i would suggest the manufacture of wood items like shields and staves but i'm guessing that might be waiting for the implimentation of a range system and arrows and the like as well - would like more 411 about that :)

Edited by DemonCowboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i got a idea which can help i think...

make it so that Npc's don't have unlimited items you can buy, but instead it only has items players sell to them and the price of each item depends on how much there are in stock..

so sometimes prices are high and sometimes low so no one has to bitch about prices ;p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that would work as well, although u'd still need base prices that made more sense than they do now.

but that would b awesome in conjunction w/ my idea set base prices and then put in a supply and demand code - nice!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i got a idea which can help i think...

make it so that Npc's don't have unlimited items you can buy, but instead it only has items players sell to them and the price of each item depends on how much there are in stock..

so sometimes prices are high and sometimes low so no one has to bitch about prices ;p

 

Isn't that pretty much what the guild owned store bots do?

 

Some have mentioned that NPCs should buy for more than the cost of raw ingredients (double? triple?). We had an economy like that originally. People were uber rich. Market was very active, true, but there was way too much money in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i meant simply that the NPC's SELL for double or triple of what they pay for the items - that will cause the inflation needed for balance not for buying stuff raw materials for more than what they're worth make the suckers pay if they don't want to harvest

 

but selling just above the cost of raw materials i mean like the npc's buy over the price of raw ingredients at like 2-5% over what it would cost to buy the raw materials and say an NPC buys a gold bar for 50gc he should sell it for 100 - 150gc hope that clears that bit up

 

oh and as far as what an NPC buys it for say the total of raw materials like a leather glove is 53gc for 5 leathers amd 3 threads then he should buy it for 60gc or something like that for that part of it too but then turns around and sells it for 120 -180gc to give the complete picture

 

sorry for all the editing but i want to be as clear and concise as possible and it's hard w/o speciffics in front of me

Edited by DemonCowboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taken from another thread. I think it is valid here.

No. The real problem with the ecomony is that there is not a big enough variety of items to keep their prices balanced out. Anther problem is that anyone with human nexus 5 will be able to wear ANYTHING, so the prices of the lesser quality items keeps dropping. The overproduction and market fluctuations could be easily counteracted if there was an npc which bought and sold every item in the game. I don't understand why there isn't one.

 

These are serious problems that affect EL, but I am not concerned if they are ever fixed at all. As long as there is no restrictions on prices, then prices will be whatever players want them to be... (low)

The purpose of NPCs is to set price ceilings and price floors. It's too bad no one agrees on what those prices should be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anther problem is that anyone with human nexus 5 will be able to wear ANYTHING, so the prices of the lesser quality items keeps dropping.

 

maybe a solution to that part would b instead of having a human nexus split it into 2 or 3 nexuses:

 

like maybe a body nexus for armor, a strength nexus for weapons, and maybe an agility nexus if range weapons are ever introduced that way u'd need alot more exp to to get the better stuff

 

on a side note about weapons and fighting - i think instead of having a limit on getting exp for att - instead to make weapons more viable and used more maybe exp should b dealt out by kill and kept fairly low deviding it equally between the 2 or have att/def exp distribution vary depending on animal or monster killed - and in case of multiple on 1 fighting exp could be divided among surviving players - think that might help w/ alot of things too - don't know where this could b posted though so if some1 could quote it for me there or tell me what thread this idea would fit in i'd appreciate it :icon13:

Edited by DemonCowboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a proponant of npc's arbitrarily buying or selling anything you want them to. Market caps are okay for short term solutions, but really wreak havoc in the long term. It's probably best to figure some system where npc prices fluctuate, possibly based on the amount of the item in question circulating in the game, the amunt of gc in circulation, etc. Whatever is done about the market, it should be called 'The New Deal'. Worked for FDR, right?

Edited by SplargaMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

like i had suggested to ent when he was going to do the cooldown.. the prices on everything in the taverns and general stores need to be boosted almost like the old days.. but 1 bunny fur for 1000 is a bit extream :confused:... i think that if people are trying to sell 1000fes for say 5k right now... to help get that price up you need to boost the price in the magic shops to say 10gc each.. that would make the streat value about 11-12k.. do that with everything... (fruits, veggies, meats, ect...) it would make the economys value more thus helping people get more money and live happly... if you think that was a bad idea here is another.. most economys need more coins... i know we have plat. coins now but you get 1 plat for 1.1k and sell it back to get 900gc... this needs to be 1k both ways so people well use them we dont need to be wasteing money when we work so hard to get it.. maybe also get some silver coins in the game that maybe could cost the amount of the gold coin now.. then boost the value of the gold coin to say 5, 10, 50 around there. i think that could help out the economy very nicely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that's the problem though - they dropped the sell prices below what it costs to make the items because ppl were making TOO MUCH money - what i'm proposing here will make a valid economy 1 that is challenging yet fair and leaves the player market open a full example would be:

 

to make fes

u need 1 snapdragon , 1 red rose and 1 sulphur

 

the flower sellers should buy the flowers at .05 -.10 gc ea (making ppl that want to just harvest flowers for money actually have to work for it) and sell them for (alittle more than double or tripple in this case - c'mon they're FLOWERS) .5 -.75 gc ea (making some1 have to buy in bulk to get any real use out of it)

 

same thing w/ the sulphur

 

NPC should pry buy sulphur at.20 -.50 gc ea and sell it for 1 - 2.5gc ea (selling for alittle more than flowers because it's harder to harvest and u need equipment reducing u'r carrying capacity)

 

now assuming we use the top values in my description just to buy the stuff to make 1 fe it would cost some1 4gc

 

now taking that into consideration

 

the magic shop NPC should buy the fe for 5gc then turn around and sell it for 10-15 gc still keeping it cheap enough to buy in decent quantities for spellcasting (when it comes into use for that but u get the idea) but giving ppl who can't find a buyer in the market can still take a small profit so they don't have to take a full loss because in that market if the NPC sold the fe for 15 ea - in the player trading market they could go from 6-15 gc ea ( even more to anti-social ppl) but it would probably settle for the most part at pry 10-12gc ea and ppl who don't want to play in the player market would pay full value of 15 for each

 

now in addition to that adding a supply and demand code or some sort of system that kept the prices fluxuating depending on depending on what's selling or not ( even a simple in stock pricing system) would build a stable fair economy that would also be challenging enough that ppl wouldn't become rich overnight

 

i don't know who the DEVs r otherwise i'd suggest this to them in person and would b willing to help by setting the prices this way if i could get so much as a list of items and current NPC buy/sell prices for current items and maybe any new items that r planning to be introduced - i could submit a revised version for the DEVs to put in adding any code for the other ideas discussed here

 

but add that idea w/ my idea about the nexuses and it'd b a MAJOR improvement in the economy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the prices, they need to be fixed up. Aside from flowers though, I wouldn't touch those if I were on the dev team, it's probably the only decent way for a newbie to make a profit in this game at first (seriously).

 

EDIT:eh...I kinda said what I was saying wrong in the post, what I meant to say was that the flower prices shouldn't be touched since they're really the only way to make good money while you're a newbie/low level character

Edited by TheComet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well for that they could leave the fruits and vegies the same - there's a veggie patch not 20 steps away from the tavern on IP that could just get mentioned more - because veggies harvest for bigger exp neway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i still think that having more coins in the game would help out... silver could be the 1gold today and the gold could be like 50sg then there would be 1000sg in 1plat coin or 20gc in 1plat or something like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well we could use that instead of this .?? gc stuff but we could make it simpler than that and simply have it

 

100sp -1gc

100gc-1platinum coin (pc)

or even make the gc more valuable in the process even and even introduce copper coins

 

100cc =1sc

100sc=1gc

100gc=1pc

and we could add that to other ideas suggested like houses and have them cost anywhere from a small 1 room shack at around 100pc to a huge several room house like a guild house or something for up to 1000pc

and have addable furniture for different amounts of money as well from mats to thrones

 

and an idea for the devs and the idea of customizable houses - give them house controls that work like small map editors for terrain u choose the item and choose where to place it then when u save it it withdraws the money directly from storage or gives a warning that u don't have enough in storage and it refuses to save

 

and then u could make some areas even more dangerous and ppl could find safety in thier houses but that would help obsorb any extra in the economy too give the ppl fivilous stuff to spend the money on that disappears into nowhere which this stuff could be bought with cold hard RL cash for ppl that don't want to wait and save up the in-game currency for it

 

EDIT

as an afterthought for PK players and guilds they could build in Pk maps and the houses can be dammagable requiring repair dammaged walls could mean that animals monsters could get in if no repair is made broken furnature and to save on graphics just make furniture disappear if its broken

Edited by DemonCowboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I have an Idea of how to implement a system to dinamize prices.

 

Here it is.

 

First lets make a few consideratons.

 

 

1. What elements should define the prices of the items?

Base cost modified by supply and demand (lets analyze this later)

 

1. What "kind" of items exists in EL?

A. Harvestable items no knowledge required

B. Harvestable items knowledge required (Minables items)

C. Manufactured or Alchemy made items knowledge and other materials required.

 

2. What is the Base cost of items?

Base cost is the cost needed to harvest or produce the item, and could be determined by:

A. Work hour cost * time to produce

B. Work hour cost * knowledge needed * time to produce

C. (Work hour cost * knowledge needed * time to produce) + Prime Materials cost

 

Thus A and B could be grouped in B if knowledge to produce = 1 in the case of no knowledge needed.

 

The knowledge needed could be directly tied to the recomended exp level. (minimum = 1 for no knowledge needed)

 

The Work hour cost could be directly tied to the skill needed to produce (harvest, alchemy, crafting, manufacturing, potion), and to the cost of the related book. (as a multipliying factor)

 

3. How we could Make variable the availability of Harvested or Mined Items? (now they are infinite!!!)

 

A stock could be set up in every harvest or mining zone.

Also a grow rate should be defined (how many new units per second this zone grow)

A Harvest or mine speed hould be defined (how much time is needed to spend to mine an unit, or units mined / harvested pres second)

 

The grow speed should be lower than the harvest / minig speed, because the grow is constant and the Harvest / Mining is variabe in function of the players use of this resource. Also several players could be mining or harvesting the same resource.

 

With this, the players will need to go to alternate resources when the stock goes to low.

 

Also market prices for this items should raise when the availability is low.

 

 

Note that the Total Available for a Harvested or Mined items should be calculated whit the units in the players or storages, not in the harvesting or minig zones.

 

4. How we transform this base cost in market price?

 

The market price is not determined by the production cost. Is determined by supply and demand (taking in consideration the base cost), but could be under or upper this base cost.

 

Supply and demand could be determined by availability. by making availibility a variable factor, we could dinamize the prices.

 

The NPC could calculate the selling price of an item taking in consideration:

- The Total Available of this item

- His stock of this item

- The base cost of this item.

- The "kind" of item.

 

The NPC don't need to calculate all this factors for each transaction:

 

The total Available could be calculated in a daily basis and used for all NPCs during this day.

His available stock should be evaluated in every transaction.

 

NPC Stock / Total Available = % Market Share

 

The base cost of an item is a fixed value (an ideal value for each item), thus no calc needed.

 

The kind of item could mark the base % of profit for each item, for example:

Harvest items = 100 %

Alchemy items = 150 %

Potion Items = 150%

Manufactured Items = 180%

Crafted Items = 220 %

 

(this values are only examples and should be balanced).

 

Also we can make this more variable by calculating the Total available in a map zone basis, this would make diferent prices for each map. Hey you could become a merchant buying in one market at low prices and selling in a market at high price!!!.

 

If this approach is taken, the storage items should count as availability in every map zone.

 

Finally lets take some examples:

 

Work hour costs:

 

Harvest = 1800 gc => 0,5 gc/second

Alchemy = 3600 gc => 1 gc/second

Potion = 3600 gc => 1 gc/second

Manufacturing = 7200 gc => 2 gc/second

Crafting = 14400 gc => 4 gc/second

 

Book Multipliers = research (minimun = 1000) / 1000

 

Knowledge needed = (level of knowledge + 1) / 10

 

 

base cost examples:

 

Red rose = 0,5 * 7 /10 = 0,35 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec)

Blue lupine = 0,5 * 2/10 = 0,1 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec)

Red SnapDragon = 0,5 * 1/10 = 0,05 gc (harvest rate of 1 / sec)

 

Sulfur = 1 * 15 / 10 = 1,5 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec)

Iron Ore = 1 * 24 / 10 * 2000 / 1000 = 4,8 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec)

Coal = 1 * 22 / 10 = 2,2 gc (harvest rate of 0,5 / sec)

 

Fire Essence = Red Rose (0,35) + Red Snapdragon (0,05) + Sulphur (1,5) + (1 * 1/10) = 2 gc (alchemy rate of 1 / sec)

 

Iron Bar = 3 Coal ( 6,6 gc ) + 2 Fire Essence ( 2gc ) + 7 Iron Ore ( 33,6 gc) + 2 * 23 /10 = 46,8 gc

( 2 secons to manu 1 bar)

 

 

NPC market prices:

 

 

Purchasing

Red Rose = 0,35 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 0,35 * (1+(20000/350000))= 0,37 gc

Total Amount of 350000 and NPC stock of 20000

 

Fire Essence = 2 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 2 * (1+(50000/320000)) = 2,31 gc

Total Amount of 320000 and NPC stock of 50000

 

Selling

Red Rose = 0,35 * 2 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 0,35 * 2 * (1+(20000/350000))= 0,74 gc

 

Fire Essence = 2 * 2,5 * (1+(NPC Stock / Total Amount)) = 2 * 2,5 * (1+(50000/320000)) = 5.775

 

 

 

This could need some work to balance but will make the market very dinamic.

 

Well sorry for the long post. and for my english :-D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

n/p about the post or the english i wasn't even thinking about it in those kind of terms - good job u put together about the type of system i had in mind just put it in better terms (exept the resource availability factor that's all urs and is welcome)

 

i would fully back the system above after balance is done but the logic is sound and creates a fair and challenging economy i like it

 

kudos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So long as there is deflation there is to little money in the game. So long as this simple fact is ignored there will be serious problems with the economy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i don't think it's a matter of needing deflation - it's just that right now the economy is all but backwards u can sell alot of items for less than it costs to make them yet alot of ppl are doing it just to earn experience if people would stop doing that i think this thread and our suggestions would get more attention and the economy would be fixed to where ppl can make money again TO buy stuff instead of the economy stagnating the way it is - the NPC market is even affecting the player market it's so bad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

clmates - nice job - if it was up to me i really would give it a try.

 

I just want to mention something. There is an extreemly easy way to control the amount of items made. Simply limit the amount of raw materials that enters the game. I mean there is a limit right now(set by the harvesting speed), but lower that limit (lower the speed or apply a treshhold). For instance if you harvest silver ore the limit is 2640 per hour. What if you could harvest only 500/h?.

 

I admit, this would be a very dramatic change but needs minimal code to be implemented and really would turn things into the good direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi.

 

clmates - nice job - if it was up to me i really would give it a try.

 

I just want to mention something. There is an extreemly easy way to control the amount of items made. Simply limit the amount of raw materials that enters the game. I mean there is a limit right now(set by the harvesting speed), but lower that limit (lower the speed or apply a treshhold). For instance if you harvest silver ore the limit is 2640 per hour. What if you could harvest only 500/h?.

 

I admit, this would be a very dramatic change but needs minimal code to be implemented and really would turn things into the good direction.

 

Thanks :-)

 

yes, i think that a try is a must, the effects could be monitorized and the values adjusted "on the fly", to correct grow speed, hourly costs and productions adn harvest speed

 

I think that the harvest speed is good, not need to lower it, i think that making the sources limited instead of unlimited should make the difference and variety.

 

And the market prices would vary in function of the in game stocks.

 

To balance my propossal only a calc sheet is needed to put all the game items and estabilish their relationships, later only the hourly costs and production / harvest speeds needs to be adjusted.

 

plus new items could be added and balanced in an effective way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: lower harvest limits. Please no. Leveling in harvest beyond about level 65 is painful and gets steadily worse as the amout of exps keeps going up and your ability to earn them never changes. If I harvest 120 diamonds in an hour I get 7200 exps. I'm currently level 80 in harvest so it takes me around a million exps to earn a level. I'll leave the math to the reader but suffice it to say that if I had to stay awake until I leveled I'd be awake a mighty long time.

 

contrast this with fighters who can earn hundreds of thousands of exps in a few hours if they are high level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: lower harvest limits. Please no. Leveling in harvest beyond about level 65 is painful and gets steadily worse as the amout of exps keeps going up and your ability to earn them never changes. If I harvest 120 diamonds in an hour I get 7200 exps. I'm currently level 80 in harvest so it takes me around a million exps to earn a level. I'll leave the math to the reader but suffice it to say that if I had to stay awake until I leveled I'd be awake a mighty long time.

 

contrast this with fighters who can earn hundreds of thousands of exps in a few hours if they are high level.

 

 

well maybe to combat harvesting limits for those concerned about levels maybe for each level u get like 5more that are counted in the hour like lv1 would get 125 counted, lv2 would get 130 etc etc meaning lv 80 would get pry clost to a full hour counted granted it pry wouldn't b 5 and would need to b balanced but still - or maybe they can add more spots to mine things and just 1 spot contains so much to harvest making u need to go to another to harvest - both suggestions - but this thread is about saving the economy not about saving experience

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: lower harvest limits. Please no. Leveling in harvest beyond about level 65 is painful and gets steadily worse as the amout of exps keeps going up and your ability to earn them never changes. If I harvest 120 diamonds in an hour I get 7200 exps. I'm currently level 80 in harvest so it takes me around a million exps to earn a level. I'll leave the math to the reader but suffice it to say that if I had to stay awake until I leveled I'd be awake a mighty long time.

 

contrast this with fighters who can earn hundreds of thousands of exps in a few hours if they are high level.

 

Ruln, i guess you did not read very carefully my post. You would still be able to harvest more than 120 so there would be absolutley no change in the amount of xp you potentially get. However, if you would be able to harvest only 200 diamond an hour there would be a significant decrease in air essence production which would be good. Likewise with other raw materials....

 

This more I think of it gives me the feeling that it definiatly would help.

 

Raw material could be balanced this way, in terms that right now animal items are far harder to gather than anything else. For instance you can run around and kill bunnies an hour long and you still would gather less than 150 furs, whereas if you harvest silver ore, it takes only 3-4 minutes to gather that amount.

 

 

Btw, I would like to see Entropys or Rojas comments on this topic.

 

Tordek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×