Cooldown log

[elixir]

So just my 2 cents on the cooldown impact.

 

What I observe so far is a sharp decrease in the number of people in dp and nc storage, which suggests that alching and making pots has become less attractive due to cooldown.

 

My personal case : before cooldown, I was into alchemy and potions. At the moment I have stopped alchemy due to cooldown. Indeed I was making magic essence which takes roughly 10 food per essence and used to fuel on veggie to do that. Waiting 50 sec to be able to go food positive is way too long for me. The alternative is too use feasting potions. However feasting costs 10gc. Taking into account a 20% failure for magic essence, that means I can make 4 essences with 1 feasting pot. This means an additional cost of 2.5gc per essence. Given the fact that magic sells for 8-10 gc, my analysis is that the profit is too small.

 

That might be different for people alching higher items like bars for which offer is less abundent or for people who have gathered enough money so that buying pots is not a problem.

 

So my conclusion is that for the moment I should stick to lower level items than those I used to make (to reduce the failure rate) and focus on stuff where the margin is higher, potions in my opinion. And I will probably go back to fighting creature (again lower level than before due to cooldown impact on potion use).

 

To conclude, a remark and a suggestion. Most people in life are reluctant to any change, especially changes they don't initiate. So it is clear that people will bitch anyhow. However it might reduce the bitching to consult people before implementing the changes, stating what the potential changes might be, analysing the reactions and then implementing the changes during test phase. This might be an idea for the next update of this kind.

 

Hope that helps.

[Tigs]

I quickly switched to feasting potions and don't see a problem with them. I use feasting potions for making everything except FEs, for which I use a combination of Feasting and Fruit. One fruit when food level is down to 25 and the Feasting when it is down to 0 again. You usually only have to wait a few seconds to be able to use the PoF at zero food. A bit cheaper than just using Feasting.

 

 

I don't use feasting at all for FE, simply cooked meat. 5 more food than fruit and faster cooldown

[Winston]

I quickly switched to feasting potions and don't see a problem with them. I use feasting potions for making everything except FEs, for which I use a combination of Feasting and Fruit. One fruit when food level is down to 25 and the Feasting when it is down to 0 again. You usually only have to wait a few seconds to be able to use the PoF at zero food. A bit cheaper than just using Feasting.

I use that same system with EEs. 20 feast pots and Fruit made me about 165 EEs and made me around 8500xp. During the cooldown, i resupply ingredients and store empty vials and EEs, and by the time i'm done with that, the cool down is over. Then I sell the EEs to the Magic Shop

[Mr.Mind]

Cooldown has had no negative affects on me. No, I haven't been cheating the system, I just learned how to beat it.

 

However, summoning is much slower than it was before cooldown (and it was slow BEFORE cooldown).

Edited December 18, 2005 by Mr.Mind

[Kedan]

remember that with feasting pots you get a vial back which can be easily sold on the market cahnnel for 5gc, or even 7gc if you hold out long enough, so it only rlly costs you 5gc per pot

[MikeSW]

get 40-50 vials. Make reasoning potions (bones powder=0 food cost, reasoning pots = 1 food ea). 30 reasoning potions = 35 feasting potions plus 100 gc.

 

Wished I had of read this when you posted. I just figured it out on my own lastnight

[Puntif]

A couple of points about the current food cooldown system: (Where I say "manufacturing" here it probably applies to alchemy, potion making, jewelry making, etc. also)

 

I made 3 iron plate armors in . . . about 45 seconds I think. Then it took me a couple of minutes to get my food level back up. This just feels wrong. It would make more sense to me if manufacturing elapsed times were longer. With the current system I'm a professional eater who makes things every once in awhile.

 

Since most items can be made in a couple of seconds, you can make them while mapwalking (apparently the client's mapwalk talks to the server every 1-10 seconds or so - when the server gets a new walk request it interrupts the manufacturing action in progress). If the manufacturing times were set to reasonable times you would only be able to make quick items while walking - this would make more sense.

 

Some items seem to require more food points (magic rings for example) than needed to support the calories consumed by the manufacturer. Back when every manufacturing activity took 1 second it made sense that the food consumption was compensating for the time it should have taken to make the item. After manufacturing times were implemented this no longer made sense.

 

I would like to see:

- time to make each item adjusted so that complex operations take a lot longer than simple ones

- food consumption per item should reflect the effort (calorie requirement) that the manufacturer has to expend

 

In order to not have long boring manu wait times you might consider some Manufacturing activities to consist of multiple steps as the crafting activities do. For example:

- for chain armors, you might need to manufacture a batch of metal rings as one operation then the rings are used as ingredients in the final product

- for swords some swords might require polished gemstones as inlays. At one point I thought that serpent stones might need to be polished and the polished serpent stones used as ingredients for the serpent swords.

[LadyWolf]

Ok, here's a brief summoning essay.

 

I am currently lvl 39 summoning, and to be frank, the few times I have tried to summon since the cooldown have not be fruitful. I have 440 emu, I can carry the ingredients for 30 boars or wolves (including sr's). Doesn't leave much left over.

 

I have tried to be patient and summon normally, waiting for the sr's to cooldown, but after 1 or 2 runs I just can't bare it and move on to something else. i have tried going to the summoning god and using bones to mana, but it costs 50 bones for 1 time. Plus where the summoning god is, it is so laggy if you get more than 1 summoner in there, that it just isn't worth it.

 

Yes I know there is the mana helm, but I just don't have the gold for something like that, along with alot of summoners that are just starting out.

 

Summoning is one of the most expensive and time consuming skills, but is my chosen skill. Since the cooldown has been implemented I have not had the patients to sit and watch my sr's cool down.

 

I have tried the other skills with the cooldown, and they aren't too badly hurt by this, and there are easy alternatives to food so that you can manu and alch like before. But summoning has no easy alternative to sr's.

 

Just before the cooldown went into effect, I was happy to see a big push in the summoning skill by alot of the big fighters. Most saw how effective summoning can be in battle during the All Out War. But since the cooldown, most have lost that interest again.

 

Well, that's just my essay on how I have seen summoning effected by the cooldown. Thanks for your time.

[bkc56]

Based on this:

 

 

In fact, we may have sped them up and increased the flow of products into the market. Which makes me wonder: just how is it that the cooldown is reducinig supply and helping the economy?

That's what you're supposed to tell us in an essay

I decided that perhaps it was time to make some observations of my own in this thread.

 

When the update that added cooldown happened, there were actually (at least) two changes that were made. The first was cooldown, but in additioin all the mix times for items was reduced to about 2 seconds (or less). So fast items (like FEs) are still fast, but slow items (like metal bars or rings) are now also fast. That means the only limit on production is the food cooldown.

 

For a while I was seeing post where people were talking about how they were mixing faster with cooldown that before. Well, they're right. If you use Feasting Pots (FPs) that have a very short cooldown, then many things can be mixed almost as fast as you can click (ever couple seconds). And if the items don't use much food, the FP cooldown will be done before you need to eat again.

 

So I truely am able to make (for example) gold and silver bars (which I use a lot in crafting) much faster now than before. Yes, there's a higher fixed cost (buying the FPs), but it's not to bad.

 

There were great hopes (and fears) that the cooldown would greatly reduce supply and therefore help the EL economy. But we haven't seen any long-term improvement in the economy. I think that's because supply has not been effected (who knows, it may even have gone up some) and the extra fixed cost of FPs isn't enough to significantly raise prices.

 

Yes, a few people have given up on making things due to the cooldown (and some have even quit the game), but it isn't enough to compensate for those who are making more now than before.

 

For items that use a lot of food (like dis/dam rings), I haven't seen much change in production rate. They used to be limited by the mix time (9-10 seconds or so). Now they're limited by the FP cooldown (about 10 seconds, and each ring takes 1 FP). So they've just traded one limit for another.

 

The one down side is that since FPs aren't stackable, I can't put them all in the first slot and use ctrl-1 to eat. This means that mixing now has a lot more mouse movement and clicking that it did before. For a game that's already click-intensive, it would be nice if changes reduced rather than increased the need for clicking.

 

Now I admit, my experience is limited: alchemy, a few potions, and crafting. But I imagine the other production skills are similarly effected: many things are faster, some the same, and perhaps some slower. And of course none of this pertains to the att/def skills which have a totally different set of limits due to the cooldown, or the summoning skill that's clearly been negatively effected.

 

But from my point-of-view, the change of cooldown+short-mix+no_exp_change has had little effect on production, the economy, or the rate of gaining experience (in the production skills), with only a small exit of gc from the economy to purchase FPs.

 

If one of the goals of cooldown really was to help the economy, then I'd suggest: reduce/remove cooldown, increase the mix delays for items, and increase the experience gained per item. This would result in less production per hour of work, less clicking per hour, and the same experience per hour.

 

If the goals were something other than support for the economy, then I can't say what would be best.

 

Thus endeth my observations.

[duran]

the reason for supply not dropping (yet) could be that there is a huge stockpile of goods in the game. therefor people are selling from their stockpiles rather then making new stuff, but it will still appear as if the supply is stable.

 

allso, i think it was planed to increase xp pr action, but entropy pulled that change at the last min or something. im guessing that it will be put in at a later time, after one see what effect the cooldown have on things.

[Aerowind]

I was trying to summon a few monsters just to get my OA up and that's kind of when I discovered the cooldown. I find this very unrealistic, who says I can't chug 5 mana potions in approximately 6 seconds, the vials are tiny.

It's very difficult to do rapid summoning, the food cooldown doesn't affect me to much, unless your trying to do uber alchemy

[Puntif]

Based on the about of fire essence that Salt is buying (at less than 3 gc each) it appears that the supply of fire essence has increased a lot since the cooldown. I suspect this is because fire essence making is little impacted by the cooldown compared to most other items that can be made) so people are making fire essence instead of the variety of items they used to make and contribute to the economy.

[duran]

hmm, kinda reminds me of when people used to make leather gloves way into the levels because the later items where not cost effective...

 

another thing is that the fire essence is a no fail item...

[WoodeH]

another thing is that the fire essence is a no fail item...

 

It was already, befor CoolDown..

[freeone3000]

A nice thing is this balences out the skills a bit. Fighting's now harder than some of the other crafts, but summoning took a nice little hit. Potioning just got a LOT more popular.

[Ratman]

 

When the update that added cooldown happened, there were actually (at least) two changes that were made. The first was cooldown, but in additioin all the mix times for items was reduced to about 2 seconds (or less). So fast items (like FEs) are still fast, but slow items (like metal bars or rings) are now also fast. That means the only limit on production is the food cooldown.

 

If one of the goals of cooldown really was to help the economy, then I'd suggest: reduce/remove cooldown, increase the mix delays for items, and increase the experience gained per item. This would result in less production per hour of work, less clicking per hour, and the same experience per hour.

 

If the goals were something other than support for the economy, then I can't say what would be best.

 

Thus endeth my observations.

 

 

Sad but true..cant much anything but agree..and also disagree..

 

Agree in that goal to make massproduction less "profitable" doenst work when it is now even easier . After update there was a lot bitching about that "cant do anything"..now its quite clear that everything can be made even faster.

 

(It mostly makes more difficult to do occassional manufacturing now. If u are somewhere and need to make maybe 20 items something..well..u cant if there is no storage near to get feastings. Just realised when hunting bears for attack potions. With fruits couldnt even make furs to potions as fast as could kill bears...20 sec spawn and failures with potion. Just an example but anyway..of course can carry Fp's always but takes some slots ..)

 

But massproduction really is fast as hell now with feastings...

 

Clever feature anyway. Who the heck can eat 50 apples in couple of minutes.Just a problem that ..there still is a problem of massproduction. not much sense in manu if leather pants must be sold for the price of ingredients..for example..or even less..

 

But who knows if there is already plans of tuning this cooldown so that things begin to change to desired direction..

 

Disagree..in that increasing mixing time would make manu too frustrating ...time should be maybe hours for an shield or chain..if not days. Sure that would decrease quantity of enough patient manuers but..well..dunno..maybe should try that next. Its really not easy to see how things affect players before it has been tested with real players.

 

But as there has been rumour about new blacksmith skill..its needed to make manu times longer but so that u dont need to sit there waiting. You just have to start the "forge" and come back when things are ready and cant start new item before its ready. But that question of future...sure need alot testing that also.

 

(Edit: By the way just realised that what about potions then. Having seen alot vial holders everywhere ..that makes me believe that there might be coming new potion houses also. There you could take all your ingredients of for example 100 potions and you would be informed then when will they be ready. And of course to get keys to those locked houses (sure have seen some)...u need to walk through a potion quest.. )

 

For training I havent seen much any change...

 

 

But anyway...Merry Christmas to all and try to keep cool..

 

(hmm..what the heck..Im not a White Rabbit..im a rat..metallic Rat..

Edited December 22, 2005 by Ratman

[Rebel]

I hate it ><

 

How it affects me... makes all alching times so difficult it can take like 15-30 mins to make 50 fe because i have to keep waiting for food so it is so annoying >< and using feasting posts is so much money ><

[bkc56]

How it affects me... makes all alching times so difficult it can take like 15-30 mins to make 50 fe because i have to keep waiting for food so it is so annoying >< and using feasting posts is so much money ><

Hmmm, I don't follow. One FP is 50 food (although you'd typically only get 45 out of it unless your food was negative). FEs take one food per. So you get 45 FE's out of a FP. FPs cost 10gc. So 0.22 gc per FE is to expensive? It will be even less if you alternate between FPs and fruit/veggies (which you can do with little or no delay due to cooldown). Even less if you make your own FPs (but that's extra time away from mixing other things).

 

I'll admit, free is better. That's why I typically harvest all my own stuff rather than buying things. But I don't think a fixed cost of 0.22 added to your FE is to bad.

 

I don't think there's any need to address your comment about 15-30 minutes to make 50 FEs. That's clearly a statement of frustration rather than anything based on actual experience.

[Rebel]

when you making several thousand fe that 10 gc adds up and when for 45 the profit is only 135 gold so 10 gold of that is 7% of your profit (or something like that i'm bad at math) which is quite abit.

Edited December 23, 2005 by Rebel

[Guest stalag]

cooldown friend of Eternal Land economy? Prolly not al all.

 

Let's explain. Who wanna to buy a serp sword ? Before cooldown pk players (low and high) and low a/d players to kill high a/d monsters. Now? Only high pk players. So with cooldown less market for serp swords.

 

And the others swords? For what? To kill monsters and earn less exp per hit? So no market for any sword and the cooldown didnt fix it. Maybe for iron swords cuz of god quest so maybe more quests which demand different kind of swords can help more then the coolest cooldown.

 

What about iron plates, greaves and cuisses? Why the price dont raise? The answer is quite simple because of the high damaged probability no one fights with them on, only, again, high pk players which represent a minority in el players. Most ppl have a pair of them just to show off. Coldown wasn't cool here either.

 

So manu is kind of out.

 

What about alc? if manu dont cash, bars dont sell. Health essences have raised a little the price but less players do them for sell and more for own use so nothing too happy here to be about, especially cuz almost everyone drop a monster category so less HE are being use which means less sr and br pots.

 

So alc and pots out.

 

We cant even talk about sum which completely stoped.

 

So...where to spend the money? The new items are quite cool but give 200k and, we know the probability is low but it's there, after a few hits goodby 200k no thanks. U cold put that especial helms with a kind of "life insurance" for a certain amount of time before the probability of 1/10k start to work...

 

My opinion the economy of el has nothing to do with or without cooldown. Cooldown makes the game kind of harder only but the problem of market still flow.

[Guest Morcul]

Hi!

 

I read the 6 first pages of this thread, so I apologize if in the other messages there already was some similar ideas. Also, it is good for you to know, that I have not experimented much with the cool down, particularly the combat situations I have not experimented. But here comes my reflection. (It is a bit lengthy and spread out one.)

 

I think the cool down changes a bit the way beginners make their things (alch +manu). It is now more beneficial to combine things, like exploring and manu, harvesting and manu etc. That way even fruit cool down becomes bearable, as you do something else than wait when you cannot eat more. On the other hand, combat activity does not really suffer from cool down as long as you are fighting your own level creatures. For a new character, combat can become even more attractive than before. Alchemy is also easy to begin with, but the learning curve is now very steep as long as there is no experience compensation.

 

I am also sure the cool down reduces the overall production in the game, but on my opinion 1 month is too short time to really see all the effects. The cool down also effects the consumption, and therefore the overall effect on economy can only be found out through experimenting. Therefore this trial period has all my sympathy. I understand this kind of experiment is necessary, and I hope people can have a good attitude on it.

 

I have one uncertain concern. I did not have an opportunity to experiment magic in combat, but if both magic and summoning have long cool downs in combat, this can very severely undermine the combat capacity of magic user only professions. If you cannot summon many gargoyles (for example) and make many harm-spells, there is no way to make a good damage with the magic-user character. Of course the potion cool down limits the EPs available, but long cool down for spells is on my opinion much more severe limitation. But this is speculation only, as I did not have a change to experiment with this.

 

I have also some comments on the money sink issue. Entropy mentioned increased feasting potion use to be a positive new money sink. I think there are very large opportunities for creating money sinks and guiding the game market with introducing some elasticity to the NPC prices. I think it would be great if the prices of the NPC:s were not that fixed. If feasting potion consumption suddenly explodes, I think Mira should bring up the price. People will still buy the potions even if they cost 12, 15 or even 20 gold. Somewhere there is a limit when the money inflow begins to decrease and then Mira should put the price a bit more down. I think Mira and other NPC:s should have some (simple?) way to do it. This would be most useful on products that both PC:s and NPC:s can do. If (for example) players make wildness potions mainly for the experience and sell them a lot to Mira, she should pay less as a response to the oversupply. In Valley of the Dwarves the lilac prices would immediately dive, as there is constantly a huge supply.

 

Although this kind of response in the prices may seem very disturbing to some players (no more easy money), it would really change the way the economics run. And still there can be some hard limits, like pick axes (for example) never cost less than 10 or more than 25 gold. And on my opinion the changes should not be too rapid. The average of previous day could for example determine prices today.

 

This is just one idea, how to increase the revenue from the money sinks and also slow down the cash outflow from the NPC:s. (And not directly related to cool down. Sorry about that)

 

As a conclusion, I think cool down is a useful feature for changing the productivity of the players, and also to guide the people towards more combined and active play style even if they are just harvesting something. All time becomes important after the first levels and successful manu and alch characters must be constantly busy…

 

Thank you for this nice innovation. I hope it will bring nice changes to the game, and when properly balanced later on, it will be a very good update.

 

morcul

[Kedan]

ok today i thought i would go make up some sr's as it has been quite a while since i sat down and made a batch of 1k-3k sr's, after mkaing a few i noticed that there wasn't really much deffence in mkaing them since before the update apart from using fp's instead of fruit, but there way no extra time. then after making 1k i thought i would try to sell them on the market, the price of sr's was at 18gc+vail (which is basicly 23gc) before the cooldown, and then you would be able to sell 5k sr's in an hour at the most, normally within 10 mins, but now i was trying to sell them for 15gc+vial (25gc) but noone was buying, then i noticed someone else trying to sell 2k sr's for 13gc+vial. I was shocked how much sr's had droped as they was one item, along with he's which could be sold on the market channel for a good price, and fdidnt have the problem of mass producing, well they did but they was used just as fast as they where made up.

 

I think whats causing this is the cooldown on sr's so 1 sr is used in about the time people would use 10+ sr's before, so now there is a massive amount of sr's flooding them market, also fighters have noticed they dont need as much sr's so there trying to sell there extra stocks back on2 the market which means theres like 100k sr's flooting around.

 

Personally i think the cooldown on sr's sould be droped by quite abit, as it was one item they had no negative affects without cooldown on it, as it acts as a "money drain" so to speak, but with items, as 1 person would use 1 sr and 4 he's on average every 5 seconds when pking which has now totally disapeared, and i noticed it has been suggested that health be increased in order fpr battles to last longer, and wouldn't making sr's be used more offered make them last longer aswell?

 

so to some up, getting rid of cooldown on sr's would increase demand on them and raise there prices, along with the prices of he's. It would also lead to longer and more stragic battles, it would also make summoning easyer (as it is almost imposible to train to a good level now).

[Tenj]

then after making 1k i thought i would try to sell them on the market, the price of sr's was at 18gc+vail (which is basicly 23gc) before the cooldown, and then you would be able to sell 5k sr's in an hour at the most, normally within 10 mins, but now i was trying to sell them for 15gc+vial (25gc) but noone was buying, then i noticed someone else trying to sell 2k sr's for 13gc+vial. I was shocked how much sr's had droped as they was one item, along with he's which could be sold on the market channel for a good price, and fdidnt have the problem of mass producing, well they did but they was used just as fast as they where made up.

 

I think whats causing this is the cooldown on sr's so 1 sr is used in about the time people would use 10+ sr's before, so now there is a massive amount of sr's flooding them market, also fighters have noticed they dont need as much sr's so there trying to sell there extra stocks back on2 the market which means theres like 100k sr's flooting around.

 

Personally i think the cooldown on sr's sould be droped by quite abit, as it was one item they had no negative affects without cooldown on it, as it acts as a "money drain" so to speak, but with items, as 1 person would use 1 sr and 4 he's on average every 5 seconds when pking which has now totally disapeared, and i noticed it has been suggested that health be increased in order fpr battles to last longer, and wouldn't making sr's be used more offered make them last longer aswell?

 

so to some up, getting rid of cooldown on sr's would increase demand on them and raise there prices, along with the prices of he's. It would also lead to longer and more stragic battles, it would also make summoning easyer (as it is almost imposible to train to a good level now).

 

it`s not becouse cooldown on sr`s the price a dropping but becouse time to make ess increesed. less ess, less sr`s needed. try to make 1k he`s or le`s and you would know why the price on sr`s go down

[Kedan]

i have made he's and theres not much defference apart from you have to make them in storage now and with feasting pots, but if people aren't making them i guess i better atart making them for money if people are buying, but last time i checked there was a mass amount of he's on the market trying to be sold to

[Cycloonx]

i have made he's and theres not much defference apart from you have to make them in storage now and with feasting pots, but if people aren't making them i guess i better atart making them for money if people are buying, but last time i checked there was a mass amount of he's on the market trying to be sold to

 

It's hard to sell essences, no intrests for magic essences, and very low intrest for health essences ...