Calling all guildleaders

[Guest Trojan_Knight]

Kit and ttlanhil have made some very valid points about this. I have been doing alot of reading today. To see if maybe I missed something before I posted. And as it is, I have. I must of over looked the "missinterpentation" of those that dont attend will be punished. Yet with or with out having a good grasp on english or not. And Im not making fun or pointing fingers. There is really only one way a person can take what is said. Maybe you really did, or maybe you really didnt make a mistake with that. I dont know. Im not you.

 

Furthermore. I posted on here a while back. And I did not see any reply to my first post. So I'm figuring that only "Guild Masters" will be allowed to take part in this. Well then in this case, at this time. I will have to say that ~LE~ is going to be unable to attend, just due that that reason alone and a few others. I am not able to get on the game at this time due to my graphic card. So in that sense, is the main reason at this time.

 

ELLG as in the way for the most part it was set up. Was going great. The only problem is that it lost interest to quickly. And Im not going to mention any names or anything like that. Because we are all entitled to our own opinions. But In my opinion,.. I felt as if some of those in attendance. May sway there support bassed on who is in what guild or etc. And that reaction may be a surcharge to this new idea proclaimed here in the threads.

 

My opinions are that if anything new or old comes about, that will put forth a possible positive force apon the in game community. I feel that it is worth a minute or two to check out and understand as I have done. I can understand that yall dont want to answer any questions relating to the council at this time. Due to it has not been created via voting those in and or etc yet at this time. Although I do feel as if even though there is no councel yet at this time. That you could hyperthetically state on there behalf. And make a side note at the bottom that states that "this may change in the future do to councel is in progress of being created". After all it is your idea and etc.

 

As for helping noobs or anyone for that matter. Not one person is going to do so because they are told to do so. Its a matter of wanting to. As some others have stated in here already. There have been times i just didnt feel like being asked a ton of questions. And then there has been other times, when i searched for a "noob" for example to help out for a few days. So in all my point is this is something that the individual would have to want to do. And I think its best left as it is. As a individuals decision to do so rather then a councel responsiblity.

 

As for inner guild problems, or problems between two guilds. This would have its pro's and con's if delt through a council. The Cons would be that it could cause the problem to become a greater problem not only for the two that were in the problem from the first place. But it could also turn into a target location for those that added there opinions to it. Meaning if guild a & b were in a dispute. And if guilds c - e opinionated on it. And tried to tell guild a & b what to do. Either a or b may targe guilds c - e as well as the other guild that they were in the problem with. The pro's are limited. But I could see where as if a honest middle man for example could be a good thing. And Im not using the word honest lightly. They will have to be a honest person that does not manipulate there logs. So that if in worse case senario they can prove that this or that was said. Another thing could be a hearing sort of ordeal. Where each guild could have a representative, and this council, could act as a hearing. Where a couple of its members would sit with the two in question to possibly see if there is a way to work it out. As for inner guild problems. I dont think that is a good idea. Any inner guild problems should be left with that guild, dealing with it, as they do. Because in all honestly, you wouldnt want me to come to your house, and tell you that your not upholding your household in the proper manner. Each guild, small community, clan etc. All have there own way of running things. As each person has his/ her own way of doing things.

 

As stated by the two I've mentioned in the above. I for the most part am aggreeing with the things that they have said in the past and present. And this is due to trial and error with where I have seen this idea go in the past. And with a few of the other things that have been mentioned by those that are posting this to be a grand idea. And this is mostly due to alot of the things mention really are not needed. And are mostly a individuals choosing to do so. Rather then having to do so. Another is the "out lawed if not participating" part along with a few other details. Im really not trying to prolong my post. Just trying to post my opinions. I may at a later date, see that some things have changed. OR see that yall have cleared up some of our concerns about this. And at that time. I may be for what yall are doing. But right now. I just cant.

 

Good luck, and merry christmas.

Regards,

Trojan Knight

[Jezebelle]

 

And..to take it a step further..leaders who refuse to sit at a council meeting..can be adressed as 'outlaw guilds' and be facing the concequences[/color]

 

 

 

It seems I am beining attacked because of this quote and i dont blame you for doing so.

 

What I meant was, this COULD be one of the things the Council COULD be doing.

After reading all posts and ideas, I allready came to the conclusion that some guilds do not wish to participate, but that should and wont be a reason to adress them as outlaws.

 

Again, I was expression my thoughts in public here, and most of you know, thats not always a erm.good thing to do..

Sometimes my thoughts are quicker to leave my head then my brains have time to stop em..lol, sorry 'bout that..

 

Merry xmas all..!

 

Jez

[MagpieLee]

And, Vanyel, I think you're getting things a bit out of hand, no one's thinking bad about people not willing to join the council. I think that it was that unfortunate post by MagpieLee about the "outlaw guilds" that started this out... but it's not that way, no one actually agreed with that (of course not).

Just try to see beyond, try to see the real intention.

 

Let's make it clear then:

 

 

Though the idea seems plausible and I would like to see this, I can't help but feel that there would be some inter-guild disputes. Would you be asking them to resolve these issues or just put on a nice face for the Guild Council meetings?

 

Also, technically I'm a GM - though I do not think of myself that way. What would you say to those small 'guilds' who are at least willing to take a positive interest in this?

 

 

and now this:

 

Though the idea seems plausible and I would like to see this, I can't help but feel that there would be some inter-guild disputes. Would you be asking them to resolve these issues or just put on a nice face for the Guild Council meetings?

 

I know some guilds are having trouble. Still, I would expect a mature attitude from any GuildLeader. I think we all are after one thing; make this World a better place..and we all can tribute to that by co-operating with eachother.

Even when a guild is 'in war'with another guild, their leaders can still act polite in a meeting. In rl, worldleaders do the same..

 

And..to take it a step further..leaders who refuse to sit at a council meeting..can be adressed as 'outlaw guilds' and be facing the concequences

 

Also, technically I'm a GM - though I do not think of myself that way. What would you say to those small 'guilds' who are at least willing to take a positive interest in this?

 

Every guild has a guidleader..and every guildleader can sit in at the Council.

 

I can't agree with you. Considering that it is JezeBelle's answers in RED colour it wasn't MagpieLee who suggested infamous 'outlaw guilds' list.

 

Thx for clearing that up Vanyel (I've had to shrink the text to make it more page friendly).

I haven't really kept up with this thread since the 3rd page - nice to see someone saying I started off the whole 'Outlaw guild' thing. :lol:

In anycase, I'm a prime example of one of those '1-3 player guilds' - I'm the GM. And like I said before: I never felt like one (or ever considered it as a true guild), which means I am as guildless as any newcomer.

All I wanted, was to have those four letters after my name, have fun and play the game.

Thats why the GM of NUFC will not consider thinking about join the council (but will keep an eye on its developments) unless the council is in full swing and underway.

[Placid]

 

And..to take it a step further..leaders who refuse to sit at a council meeting..can be adressed as 'outlaw guilds' and be facing the concequences[/color]

 

 

 

It seems I am beining attacked because of this quote and i dont blame you for doing so.

 

What I meant was, this COULD be one of the things the Council COULD be doing.

After reading all posts and ideas, I allready came to the conclusion that some guilds do not wish to participate, but that should and wont be a reason to adress them as outlaws.

 

Whether it was a SHOULD or COULD comment is neither here nor there; the fact is, its an outrageous comment and if thats just one idea coming from the person who is attempting to get this idea together, what could be suggested by others, further down the line?

 

FYI, LNX will not be joining this 'council'.

[Jezebelle]

 

And..to take it a step further..leaders who refuse to sit at a council meeting..can be adressed as 'outlaw guilds' and be facing the concequences[/color]

 

 

 

It seems I am beining attacked because of this quote and i dont blame you for doing so.

 

What I meant was, this COULD be one of the things the Council COULD be doing.

After reading all posts and ideas, I allready came to the conclusion that some guilds do not wish to participate, but that should and wont be a reason to adress them as outlaws.

 

Whether it was a SHOULD or COULD comment is neither here nor there; the fact is, its an outrageous comment and if thats just one idea coming from the person who is attempting to get this idea together, what could be suggested by others, further down the line?

 

FYI, LNX will not be joining this 'council'.

 

 

Its so easy, isnt it, to attack someone on a word, a phrase, a comment..even tho that person apologises and says its not meant the way its taken..*sighs*

And, to take THIS a step further..its not ME who decides what the rules and regulations will be like in the Council..you seem to forget about that little aspect of it all

 

It must be fun, standing at the sideline and yelling comments and negativity to those who at least TRY and make this World better then it allready is..

 

Well, you will see when the Council is up and running..you will thank those who DID make the effeor to make it work.

 

Till then..please..by all means, sit back and relax..and then jump a running train when its headed to a Better World.

 

I appologise up front for my sarcasme here..yes..I am being that, coz I am dissapointed in those who I believed would have a great input in this Council.

 

I respect those that made their opinions clear, on here as well in game..as long as their opinions were based on facts..which wasnt always the case.

 

Again..I am NOT the Leader of the Council..nor do i have a major vote in anything..ALL guildleaders who have joined it have an equal saying in it.

 

 

Jez

[Ghrae]

For those who support this idea, you applaud them and welcome them with open arms.

 

Those who have questions and concerns you make us out to be enemies and people trying to bring down your idea.

 

Oh wait, it's not YOUR idea... well, it is sort of since you started this post.

 

I'm not your enemy. I do have legitimate concerns. Concerns that have not been answered. And your reply equates to the following scenario:

 

Council: Buy a car - it'll be great!

Kit: What kind of car?

Council: It's a great car *hugs* You'll like it

Kit: 2 door? 4 door?

Council: Kit! How can I answer that, it's not even designed yet silly

Kit: So you want me to buy a car that doesn't exist?

Council: Of course! It'll be great!

Kit: But you don't know what it is yet

Council: You must be an enemy trying to bring it down

 

I'm so confused. I can't ask questions or I'm evil. But those guilds whose guildleaders back this idea are the good guys. Even if they don't know what they are joining since it doesn't exist yet.

 

 

Its so easy, isnt it, to attack someone on a word, a phrase, a comment..even tho that person apologises and says its not meant the way its taken..*sighs*

*say what you mean and mean what you say*

 

So we look at your posts since it was YOU who started this thread and seem to be the largest backer of the idea. We look for answers to your question. Your signature says that you mean what you say. But when asked we are made to be the enemy. It seems that the "*hugs*" are only for those people who agree with you and despite the concept of open discussion, the only thing we get is "*sighs*". I hope that these quotes show you what people see and help you take a step back, review everything going on and come back with that which will help those who have questions and not shun them.

[Jezebelle]

For those who support this idea, you applaud them and welcome them with open arms.

 

I applaud those who acualy TRIBUTE to this idea of forming a council, not just ask what the Council can DO..

Who was it again that said..'do not ask what your country can do for you..ask what YOU can do for your country' ?

 

Those who have questions and concerns you make us out to be enemies and people trying to bring down your idea.

You read my post in a manner that you wanna read them.

 

Oh wait, it's not YOUR idea... well, it is sort of since you started this post.

 

Yes i started the idea..and the Council has to work it out more, not just me.

 

I'm not your enemy. I do have legitimate concerns. Concerns that have not been answered. And your reply equates to the following scenario:

 

We have been giving you answers, but you refuse to read them in the ay they are meant, you want answers while the questions havent even been formed yet.

 

Council: Buy a car - it'll be great!

Kit: What kind of car?

Council: It's a great car *hugs* You'll like it

Kit: 2 door? 4 door?

Council: Kit! How can I answer that, it's not even designed yet silly

Kit: So you want me to buy a car that doesn't exist?

Council: Of course! It'll be great!

Kit: But you don't know what it is yet

Council: You must be an enemy trying to bring it down

 

I'm so confused. I can't ask questions or I'm evil. But those guilds whose guildleaders back this idea are the good guys. Even if they don't know what they are joining since it doesn't exist yet.

 

Thats my pont..cooperate to form a Council..not have a bed allready made to jump into

 

 

Its so easy, isnt it, to attack someone on a word, a phrase, a comment..even tho that person apologises and says its not meant the way its taken..*sighs*

*say what you mean and mean what you say*

 

So we look at your posts since it was YOU who started this thread and seem to be the largest backer of the idea. We look for answers to your question. Your signature says that you mean what you say. But when asked we are made to be the enemy. It seems that the "*hugs*" are only for those people who agree with you and despite the concept of open discussion, the only thing we get is "*sighs*". I hope that these quotes show you what people see and help you take a step back, review everything going on and come back with that which will help those who have questions and not shun them.

 

 

As I said before, its easier to wait till the house is build then help build it before moving in.. That way you KNOW what it will look like..

Edited December 27, 2005 by Jezebelle

[Ghrae]

We have been giving you answers, but you refuse to read them in the ay they are meant, you want answers while the questions havent even been formed yet.

 

*sigh*

Far from the truth. I've asked any number of questions. True, that SOME have been answered (thank you very much Damned_Angel) but many have simply been ignored.

 

You also stated:

And I have no intetion to let it die

You have no intention of letting WHAT die? What do YOU want this to be?

What about logistic questions that I asked?

You want to be someone that just posts a random idea to the forums with lots of smilies? Or do you have a clear vision of what you want this to be that you want to share with EVERYONE, not just guild leaders.

 

Guess what: Many constitutions (govermental basis) around the world had a very clear idea what they wanted even though they allowed for formations to be developed, modified and augmented over time and as situations changed. Yet you ask us to stand on a cloud and when we doubt the substance we get answers in red.

 

If *YOU* can't answer these questions (even if it is "In my opinion" or "I would like to see") then how can you say you won't let it die? What if a bunch of guild leaders decide that newbies are to be ignored? You going to stand around and not let the guild council die despite decisions like that?

 

Stop fluffing around and come out and state your opinions and what you envision. Let us make our minds up based on that and not these vague generalities and non-answers you've been spitting at us. Stand up and speak up already.

 

Everyone else here has. If you want a council of voices, start exercising yours here.

[Jezebelle]

We have been giving you answers, but you refuse to read them in the ay they are meant, you want answers while the questions havent even been formed yet.

 

*sigh*

Far from the truth. I've asked any number of questions. True, that SOME have been answered (thank you very much Damned_Angel) but many have simply been ignored.

 

You also stated:

And I have no intetion to let it die

You have no intention of letting WHAT die? What do YOU want this to be?

What about logistic questions that I asked?

You want to be someone that just posts a random idea to the forums with lots of smilies? Or do you have a clear vision of what you want this to be that you want to share with EVERYONE, not just guild leaders.

 

Guess what: Many constitutions (govermental basis) around the world had a very clear idea what they wanted even though they allowed for formations to be developed, modified and augmented over time and as situations changed. Yet you ask us to stand on a cloud and when we doubt the substance we get answers in red.

 

If *YOU* can't answer these questions (even if it is "In my opinion" or "I would like to see") then how can you say you won't let it die? What if a bunch of guild leaders decide that newbies are to be ignored? You going to stand around and not let the guild council die despite decisions like that?

 

Stop fluffing around and come out and state your opinions and what you envision. Let us make our minds up based on that and not these vague generalities and non-answers you've been spitting at us. Stand up and speak up already.

 

Everyone else here has. If you want a council of voices, start exercising yours here.

 

missed this post, perhaps?

 

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...ndpost&p=229331

Edited December 27, 2005 by Jezebelle

[Ghrae]

That answers only some of my questions... but since that's is all I'm going to get I guess I'll have to live with it.

 

And since I'm not guild leader (have I mentioned that like 1000 times?) I guess I'll have to wait to see what the house looks like.

 

I know that CEL isn't the only guild that either won't be able to or has decided not to join the council. If you REALLY want it to succeed, perhaps you should review some of the reasons we've given. Understand them. Find answers to them so that in the future you're not faced with them again.

 

Then again, if you didn't want us on board, then I guess your strategy has worked.

[Jezebelle]

That answers only some of my questions... but since that's is all I'm going to get I guess I'll have to live with it.

 

And since I'm not guild leader (have I mentioned that like 1000 times?) I guess I'll have to wait to see what the house looks like.

 

I know that CEL isn't the only guild that either won't be able to or has decided not to join the council. If you REALLY want it to succeed, perhaps you should review some of the reasons we've given. Understand them. Find answers to them so that in the future you're not faced with them again.

 

Then again, if you didn't want us on board, then I guess your strategy has worked.

 

 

Ghrae, it would be nice if all guildleaders or their representatives would join the Council, but that wont be the case since some just dont have the time or the energy or just dont feel like getting involved in such, so be it.

Both me and damned_angel gave all the answers we have right now, the rest is up for the Council I guess.

 

Your last remark..'if you dont wants 'us' aon board is simply uncalled for..if i didnt want 'you'aboard, i wouldnt have taken the efford to try and amswer the questions 'you' have..would I?

[Ghrae]

Your last remark..'if you dont wants 'us' aon board is simply uncalled for..if i didnt want 'you'aboard, i wouldnt have taken the efford to try and amswer the questions 'you' have..would I?

 

Your reply that you linked to me came on page 4. How many questions were being asked by various folks before you answered SOME of them there. Either you don't have time (which you claim you do), you don't care, or some of us you don't care to have join the council.

 

Or perhaps while sitting by the Isla Prima fire you re-hashed an idea that has been tried a time or two before, and instead of doing some research and homework on a way to make it work this time and not fall apart like it has before, you just decided to quickly post on the forums. Either way I have not felt welcome in to this idea of yours since the beginning. My questions are tossed to the side or given only flippant consideration. And not just my questions... many others haven't been answered either.

 

You say you won't let it die but what have you done to make is survive? Answering questions with "the Council will decide" isn't helping it. How can a council be formed when there is no basis to be formed upon.

 

In the very first meeting, before there are any rules, if two (or more people) are talking at the same time, who will be there to keep the peace? (I know, another logistics question whose answer is "the Council will decide").

 

My turn: *sigh*

 

Good luck with this venture.

[Vanyel]

Couple words.

JezeBelle I'm highly disappointed with your way of dealing with questions/discussion/critics. What you do is calling everybody enemies and saying they're evil, cos they don't jump in the air with 'ohhs' and 'ahhs' how brilliant your idea is.

Lack of ability of discussion is something that disqualifies people as leaders of anything, especially something what might have very significant influence on whole community.

Yeah, you answer some questions, but in your answers is really few essence - it's exectly what Ghrae posted in his funny 'car-selling' quote.

 

Both me and damned_angel gave all the answers we have right now, the rest is up for the Council I guess.

 

Damned Angel gave some answers, but the problem is that they're not solving problems pointed before and, what's even more important, they're not making me calm of the future of the council.

The famous 'outlaw guild' sentence - you claim it's nothing, I claim it's something very important. This is the example of how your treat people that don't agree with you. If this is what the Council will present... well, it won't be funny, it will be tragedy.

 

Considering it all - Seridia Viatoris will NOT join this council. What's more, with such attitue I doubt it will be a council (council - A meeting of people for consultation).

With respect

Vanyel

 

PS. It's harder and harder writing this 'with respect' considering respect you show to those that have the courage to disagree with you.

[Jaha]

I applaud those who acualy TRIBUTE to this idea of forming a council, not just ask what the Council can DO..

Who was it again that said..'do not ask what your country can do for you..ask what YOU can do for your country' ?

 

I'm sorry. No.... There is a major difference between a country and a vaguely defined idea that someone posts on a forum... And believe it or not, they are contributing, just not in the exact way you want. You say you want to create this council, which I am pretty sure are Republics, yet you call anyone who disagrees an enemy? Last time I checked, freedom of speech was an important part of it. You can't expect everyone say "wow Jezebell, this is a great idea!"

The making of "outlaw" guilds is the most disturbing part of it all. It will create a nice "us vs. them" feeling, considering how you said that you would put embargos on them, pretty much cut them off from you. I am sorry, this entire thing seems fairly deja vu of the Cold War, how the U.S. would have nothing to do with any communist countries. Which A. cost them potential allies (Communsit Vietnam liked the U.S. until they kind of invaded) B. doesnt seem to be working very well any more (China?). You are acting like it doesnt matter, but what matters to you doesnt matter as much as what matters to the people you are trying to convince to follow your idea. What you are claiming about this being a council, which would qualify as a Republic, when you wont let people speak against it?

 

 

The only part of this I think that would be interesting would see you try to select a representative of the guildless which even a majority approve of...

 

 

Edit: just to make sure you know, this is ALL my opinion, and does not reflect anything to do with my guild

Edited December 28, 2005 by dutchman21

[LadyWolf]

Your last remark..'if you dont wants 'us' aon board is simply uncalled for..if i didnt want 'you'aboard, i wouldnt have taken the efford to try and amswer the questions 'you' have..would I?

 

*YOU* took the time to answer questions? Wait let me re-read all these posts...nope..nope..nope.. WAIT...nope...AH.. All I see is where you highlighted what damned_angel stated :S or you just made posts telling those of us that questioned you to "go away" or "stop posting if your only gonna be negative".

 

Let me tell you something, your *hugs* and fresh cookies maybe enough to woo some over, but I don't jump on a train heading for a brick wall so quickly. You sit and praise those that will blindly follow you, thinking you will lead them to greatness, but those of us that hang back are outcasts, undeserving of *hugs* and cookies. I can *sigh* too, see.

 

Instead of trying to ease our minds and show us what you plan to do to try to get us onboard, you simply wish to dismiss us.

 

Take a good look at these posts and quit thinking of yourself. We aren't attacking YOU. We are attacking this idea in a way to get answers to such vague ideas as : help newbs, deal punishments to the ebul people, form bond with guilds.

 

As placid said:

Whether it was a SHOULD or COULD comment is neither here nor there; the fact is, its an outrageous comment and if thats just one idea coming from the person who is attempting to get this idea together, what could be suggested by others, further down the line?

I think he summed it up the best. There is no way to mistake how you meant what you said. You got caught with your hand in the cookie jar on that comment, no two ways about it.

 

Now, I'm off to play EL, the game that I am so addicted to, to HELP in a hands on matter, not just talk about t.

[Fyvle]

It's nice that we have people out there who are trying to make things better in EL.

 

I do not offer support, nor am I against this. Please try to remember my saying this if you choose to reply to my post.

 

I have concerns about this concept and I haven't really seen anything in this thread which answers them.

 

Every guild has a guidleader..and every guildleader can sit in at the Council.

 

Guildleaders are (at least in the old days and I do hope and im my experience most still are) well-experienced players with leadership quealities that can put away personal issues with guilds and players to be able to be unbiased in handling issues.

 

This idea can work as long as it is a strict democracy.

 

K, I brought up these quotes to illustrate my concern.

 

How much does it cost to buy a guild? 30k and 1 stat at least 40 was the last price I heard, but that was a little while ago.

 

So basically, we're saying we want more democracy in EL, it's not defined yet. But we have a concpet of a council which will define itself and it's powers after it's created. All the Guild Leaders can act as a sort of "Elected Representative" (or perhaps just representative) if you will... but the only thing that determines who becomes a guild leader is who has the money to buy a guild and one stat high enough?!?

 

Off topic:

 

Anybody read Leviathan?

 

All I meant was, this can only work 100% if ALL guilds sit in.

 

Nobody is forcing anyone to join this Council, if you dont believe its needed, dont join.

 

So it appears not all guilds want to sit in - which is to say less than 100%.

1) Does that mean this will not work, or it will just work less efficiently?

2) If the council will work with less than 100% guild participation, then what percentage of guild participation would be acceptable?

[Sheesh]

Kit, Vanyel, and LadyWolf, along several others have made very good points. Apparently, Jez, you do not understand the questions as you are using circle reasoning to not answer them. So here, I will *try* yet again to ask my questions—and may resemble the questions of the rest of the group you are shutting out.

 

•Why only guild leaders? Yes, the guild leaders may understand the game more, providing they have been around long enough. But some of us may have the stats and gold to make a new guild but like our friends in our existing guild. We may have chosen a home for life with our guild, we have high enough reasoning of the game, and some of us are real leaders in our real life communities already. But apparently, we are not good enough to be in the guild council —perhaps you do not want ones that do committees for a living, as we are the ones that tend to ask questions and do not let flippant comments slide (such as the threat tactic of having us become outlaws if we do not join).

 

•Where will the meetings take place? In game? Time zones and real lives tend to be a problem. Some of us come online to play a game, not to interfere with others on how we *think* they should play the game. Mods do that quite nicely.

 

•When the first meeting will take place, you must have some sort of leadership to the meeting. An outline must be made as to what will be addressed during such meeting so that it will not take all day/night to conduct it. That way you will have time for your cookie breaks, your hugs, etc, but will still stay on topic and discuss what needs to be brought up. Example:

Guild Committee Meeting

I Welcome

II Rule Breakers

III *hugs*

IV Development ideas

V *cookies*

VI Newb Help

VII Next meeting dates

 

This way you can have a committee head for each topic and have other guild leaders can decide which they want to help in. Otherwise you will have chaos. And most of us here that have voiced our opinions do not want to waste time with chaos the first meeting. Robert’s Rules of Orders must be used to conduct a public committee. You need to create the order atmosphere at the start, otherwise this will never take shape. In order to build a house, you must have a solid foundation and this solid foundation is what we are asking for.

[Vanyel]

In addition:

• Guildless representative: how do you plan to get guildless people involved in this council. So far they seem to be 'worse' part of community with less rights. It's somehow ridiculous that the part of our community - not that small as some would prefer to think - would have 1 voice in the Council. It's highly unfair, especially considering the fact that you want the councile to decide about punishments for outlaw people. I'm fully concern that you claim you don't want any powers to provide these, but guildless people would probably want to decide about it as well.
  

Vanyel

[Jezebelle]

It's nice that we have people out there who are trying to make things better in EL.

 

I do not offer support, nor am I against this. Please try to remember my saying this if you choose to reply to my post.

 

I have concerns about this concept and I haven't really seen anything in this thread which answers them.

 

Every guild has a guidleader..and every guildleader can sit in at the Council.

 

Guildleaders are (at least in the old days and I do hope and im my experience most still are) well-experienced players with leadership quealities that can put away personal issues with guilds and players to be able to be unbiased in handling issues.

 

This idea can work as long as it is a strict democracy.

 

K, I brought up these quotes to illustrate my concern.

 

How much does it cost to buy a guild? 30k and 1 stat at least 40 was the last price I heard, but that was a little while ago.

 

So basically, we're saying we want more democracy in EL, it's not defined yet. But we have a concpet of a council which will define itself and it's powers after it's created. All the Guild Leaders can act as a sort of "Elected Representative" (or perhaps just representative) if you will... but the only thing that determines who becomes a guild leader is who has the money to buy a guild and one stat high enough?!?

 

Yes, you have a good point there, but imo a guild is started by someone who has a clear vision about what his/her guild should represent and therefor make a guild and find members with the same ideas and visions.

You have to understand; i came up with this idea ( and no, i didnt know about the other times its been tried, im sorry if i didnt keep up with those posts, they were in a period i erm..had other rl issues to attend)

and I had to start somewhere. The guildleaders represent a group with the same ideas (imo) and therefor the guildleaders would make an exelent start to begin with.

After the posts roled in, i understand that not all guikldleaders have time and such to be in the Council, so i satted somwhere the guild could choose a representative to take place in the Council.

 

 

Off topic:

 

Anybody read Leviathan?

 

All I meant was, this can only work 100% if ALL guilds sit in.

 

Nobody is forcing anyone to join this Council, if you dont believe its needed, dont join.

 

So it appears not all guilds want to sit in - which is to say less than 100%.

1) Does that mean this will not work, or it will just work less efficiently?

2) If the council will work with less than 100% guild participation, then what percentage of guild participation would be acceptable?

 

As I said before, no one can be forced to be in the Council, we shall have to work with those who will.I hope and expect that more guilds will send a representative or Leader when the Council is up and running.

 

In addition:

• 
   
  
• Guildless representative: how do you plan to get guildless people involved in this council. So far they seem to be 'worse' part of community with less rights. It's somehow ridiculous that the part of our community - not that small as some would prefer to think - would have 1 voice in the Council. It's highly unfair, especially considering the fact that you want the councile to decide about punishments for outlaw people. I'm fully concern that you claim you don't want any powers to provide these, but guildless people would probably want to decide about it as well.
   
  

Vanyel

 

 

Those without a tag should reunite (wasnt there someone who volonteered in polling the tagless players?

Perhaps its an idea to have more then one tagless player in the Council, everyone could represent a skill perhaps?

 

Jez

 

Kit, Vanyel, and LadyWolf, along several others have made very good points. Apparently, Jez, you do not understand the questions as you are using circle reasoning to not answer them. So here, I will *try* yet again to ask my questions—and may resemble the questions of the rest of the group you are shutting out.

 

•Why only guild leaders? Yes, the guild leaders may understand the game more, providing they have been around long enough. But some of us may have the stats and gold to make a new guild but like our friends in our existing guild. We may have chosen a home for life with our guild, we have high enough reasoning of the game, and some of us are real leaders in our real life communities already. But apparently, we are not good enough to be in the guild council —perhaps you do not want ones that do committees for a living, as we are the ones that tend to ask questions and do not let flippant comments slide (such as the threat tactic of having us become outlaws if we do not join).

 

Please read my post in answer to Fyvl

 

•Where will the meetings take place? In game? Time zones and real lives tend to be a problem. Some of us come online to play a game, not to interfere with others on how we *think* they should play the game. Mods do that quite nicely.

 

I answered that one some posts ago too. Those that realy cant make it, will be informed through our forums, voting will only take place during a meeting when all are there, otherwise it will be done throughout several days with a poll. Moderators suffer from this same problem tho.(the time diff thing)

 

•When the first meeting will take place, you must have some sort of leadership to the meeting. An outline must be made as to what will be addressed during such meeting so that it will not take all day/night to conduct it. That way you will have time for your cookie breaks, your hugs, etc, but will still stay on topic and discuss what needs to be brought up. Example:

Guild Committee Meeting

I Welcome

II Rule Breakers

III *hugs*

IV Development ideas

V *cookies*

VI Newb Help

VII Next meeting dates

 

This way you can have a committee head for each topic and have other guild leaders can decide which they want to help in. Otherwise you will have chaos. And most of us here that have voiced our opinions do not want to waste time with chaos the first meeting. Robert’s Rules of Orders must be used to conduct a public committee. You need to create the order atmosphere at the start, otherwise this will never take shape. In order to build a house, you must have a solid foundation and this solid foundation is what we are asking for.

 

I know how to hold meetings, and so does Damned_angel, its likely one of us will lead the first meeting till we decide on a Council Leader.

Sheesh, thank you very much for your feedback, this is, imo the right way to contribute to a new idea. Giving and receiving feedback is not something that everybody does naturaly, you do it quit well, thanks

 

Jez

[ttlanhil]

Yes, you have a good point there, but imo a guild is started by someone who has a clear vision about what his/her guild should represent and therefor make a guild and find members with the same ideas and visions.

sounds good, but I doubt it's true in practice. just look at how many newbs wanna make a guild after a day or less of playing (granted, they usually flop or stay with a few members, but there are a huge number of guilds with few people)

 

Those without a tag should reunite (wasnt there someone who volonteered in polling the tagless players?

Perhaps its an idea to have more then one tagless player in the Council, everyone could represent a skill perhaps?

why? in some cases they just don't want to join up to a guild or equivalent (such as a guildless group)

that's not just newer players, Lyanna is an example that springs to mind

[Jezebelle]

I applaud those who acualy TRIBUTE to this idea of forming a council, not just ask what the Council can DO..

Who was it again that said..'do not ask what your country can do for you..ask what YOU can do for your country' ?

 

I'm sorry. No.... There is a major difference between a country and a vaguely defined idea that someone posts on a forum...

 

The comparison i was making was between the 'country' being Eternal lands. The 'what can you do for your country' was pointing at the Council

 

And believe it or not, they are contributing, just not in the exact way you want. You say you want to create this council, which I am pretty sure are Republics, yet you call anyone who disagrees an enemy? Last time I checked, freedom of speech was an important part of it. You can't expect everyone say "wow Jezebell, this is a great idea!"

 

I never called those that commented enemies.

The making of "outlaw" guilds is the most disturbing part of it all. It will create a nice "us vs. them" feeling, considering how you said that you would put embargos on them, pretty much cut them off from you. I am sorry, this entire thing seems fairly deja vu of the Cold War, how the U.S. would have nothing to do with any communist countries. Which A. cost them potential allies (Communsit Vietnam liked the U.S. until they kind of invaded) B. doesnt seem to be working very well any more (China?). You are acting like it doesnt matter, but what matters to you doesnt matter as much as what matters to the people you are trying to convince to follow your idea. What you are claiming about this being a council, which would qualify as a Republic, when you wont let people speak against it?

 

I took back my words on that subject and even apologised.

 

 

The only part of this I think that would be interesting would see you try to select a representative of the guildless which even a majority approve of...

 

I made several posts about that subject.

 

 

Edit: just to make sure you know, this is ALL my opinion, and does not reflect anything to do with my guild

 

 

Thank you for your contribution

 

Jez

[Vanyel]

You have to understand; i came up with this idea ( and no, i didnt know about the other times its been tried, im sorry if i didnt keep up with those posts, they were in a period i erm..had other rl issues to attend)

and I had to start somewhere. The guildleaders represent a group with the same ideas (imo) and therefor the guildleaders would make an exelent start to begin with.

Actuall, it's never like this. It's like saying "all biologists love sea" and "all matematicians love algebra". As many peopl as many ideas and opinions. Some might be similar, but, welcome to the real world, nobody has the monopoly for only right way of thinking. Nobody...

 

Your idea, you think, etc...

You claim it's not your Council, but you seems to decide for it.

 

Those without a tag should reunite (wasnt there someone who volonteered in polling the tagless players?

Perhaps its an idea to have more then one tagless player in the Council, everyone could represent a skill perhaps?

 

Point is - if they would like to reunite they would join guild, wouldn't they? They prefer to stay guildless, but still they ARE the part of community - what rights the Council will have to decide in their name?

 

Another point

 

What do you plan to do not to let the community get devided by the Council. There will be at least 3 groups:

• The Council Members
  
• Outlaw guilds
  
• Tagless people (as you call them, which imo isn't best description)
  

I see here one big problem, instead of unity the community this MIGHT (doesn't have to) devide it.

With respect

Vanyel

 

<edit>

Some formattings, precising thoughts.

Edited December 28, 2005 by vanyel

[Jezebelle]

You have to understand; i came up with this idea ( and no, i didnt know about the other times its been tried, im sorry if i didnt keep up with those posts, they were in a period i erm..had other rl issues to attend)

 

Your idea, you think, etc...

You claim it's not your Council, but you seems to decide for it.

 

this is getting funny, when i dont give answers because of the fact the Council has to be created yet, i get attacked for not giving answers..and now..when i do give answers..i get attacked as well for 'deciding what goes on in the Council..I am confused now..

 

Those without a tag should reunite (wasnt there someone who volonteered in polling the tagless players?

Perhaps its an idea to have more then one tagless player in the Council, everyone could represent a skill perhaps?

 

Point is - if they would like to reunite they would join guild, wouldn't they? They prefer to stay guildless, but still they ARE the part of community - what rights the Council will have to decide in their name?

 

then WHY am i being asked to find a way to get the guildless players involved?

 

Another point

[*]What do you plan to do not to let the community get devided by the Council. There will be at least 3 groups:

• 
   
  
• The Council Members
   
  
• Outlaw guilds
   
  
• Tagless people (as you call them, which imo isn't best description)
   
  

I see here one big problem, instead of unity the community this MIGHT (doesn't have to) devide it.

With respect

Vanyel

 

there will not be outlaw guilds, as you put it, I suggest you try and read my posts, instead of twisting them to your way of thinking.

 

As for the community being or getting devided..thats allready the case, havent you noticed? the Council will have a job to bring that back to a minimum, but there will always be devisions in a community, whetter you like it or not. All we can do is try and deal with it, best and mataure way we can.

[Vanyel]

I could point here that again you're looking for non-existing enemies. I could point here you're contradicting yourself. I could point here you have NO idea how the council should work. I could point here that this is YOUR opinion community is in poor condition. Seems it's devided in YOUR opinion.

What would be the aim of pointing these out? NONE. You would read again only what you want to.

[Jezebelle]

I could point here that again you're looking for non-existing enemies. I could point here you're contradicting yourself. I could point here you have NO idea how the council should work. I could point here that this is YOUR opinion community is in poor condition. Seems it's devided in YOUR opinion.

What would be the aim of pointing these out? NONE. You would read again only what you want to.

 

 

I could point out here that you simply refuse to see the Greater Good in all this, but whats the point in doing so? You will only read what you wanna see. I have givven answers, tried to explain things..but when there's no intention whatsoever to to read them as they are written, its no use.

What is it you are so afraid of? That the Council will have a certain 'power'? How can that be, whe we dont have or ever will get any technical gamepowers?

 

Jez