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Jezebelle

Calling all guildleaders

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And please, if you are only posting here to be negative, stop posting, you have made your point clear enough.

 

Jez

 

I was simply saying, that details are to be worked out yet, this forum is not the place to do so. If you are interested in setting up this guild council, pls register on the therefor set up forum, and we will take it from there.

 

 

No, that's not what you said at all.

 

And again; and perhaps this will make my point clear about the qualities of a Guildleader; a guildleader should be able to put away personal issues for a greater good. I get the feeling you do not have those qualities.

 

And now taking shots at me for expressing alternate opinions? I forgot that a guildleader's attributes were to include agreeing with Jezebelle. You'll have to give me the link to where that was posted so I can study further.

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[

And now taking shots at me for expressing alternate opinions? I forgot that a guildleader's attributes were to include agreeing with Jezebelle. You'll have to give me the link to where that was posted so I can study further.

 

 

..Ill explain again;

First there need to BE a Council before we can set rules and regulations.

 

Jez

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I know FireBalls said count him in for UTi, I say count me out. I actually agree with Kit/Ghrae on this one. This is an RPG. There are basic rules that we all have to follow, but to set up a Counsil to dictate gameplay, well that negates the "roleplaying" ascpect.

 

There's supposed to be good and bad in the game as well as real life. I know that if this game was full of all good- doers then it would be slightly boring, never having to be on your toes when training, or sitting on a bag in the mines.

 

It is a nice idea, in a perfect world, but this "world" we live in (rl and el) is far from perfect, and that is what makes it so great.

 

As far as helping newbies. I'll continue to do it on my own council or no council. That's what NH's, and those of us players that still get pleasure from giving back to the community, are here for. Don't need a Counsil to dictate how, when, why, how much, how little I can help a newbie.

 

Just wanted to put in my 2 gc's worth, since I am a ranked member of UTi. Good Luck.

 

 

 

(My opinion is my opinion, does not reflect the views or opinions of UTi as a whole....unless otherwise stated :P)

Edited by LadyWolf

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I have kept up with this thread, more so then most of the threads here. Perhaps you think you know what is best for this game community. Perhaps it is a good idea. But what I see from the way you are handling things Jezebelle, is all wrong. Some may see you as a guiding light here in EL, but you appear to me as someone that wants recognition and glory for bringing it all together and not want to actually make it work for the sake of the community. Guilds do not make this game as it is, the people do. And what Kit stated was absolutely right. You need to make a plan first and then get the support staff. Otherwise, the "idea" will only be an idea and the support staff (Guild Council) will do nothing but socialize and accomplish nothing. Granted, this too, may be what you intend--as you will go down in history as an hero that tried to make a difference, but still in the end, it would be yet another failure.

 

No matter what you do, people will act as they wish. The good ones that always lend a helping hand will continue to do that. The bad ones will continue to scam and be punished, and nothing will change. The only difference between now and when you will get your council is that you will take credit for the good doing good and the bad getting punished. So, truely, unless you actually make a plan before you start, you will never get the ball rolling.

 

As for helping newbs, many of us do it. Just because some of us choose not to sit in front of the beam fire and gossip while helping newbs, and actually play the game for what it was intended for, does not mean that you are the only one--or one of the only ones that help newbs. I suggest you stand down and get a plan first. Also, if someone does not agree with you, it is more diplomatic to be nice than offer bitter words of critism as you did with Kit. That does not make a good leader or role model.

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I will state this once again, like i did before:

 

We need to know WHO wants to be in this Council first, THEN we can ALL decide what rules, plans or anything are gonna be adressed by the Council.

If i was to make a plan myself, i could be acused of handling it all myself and 'take the credit'as you so nicely put it.

 

Its so easy to sit back and moan and bitch around, while there is actualy nothing concrete yet, except the possible formation of this Council.

 

I am not looking for a hero-position, I want this to be a democratic Council, in which we all (the guidleaders) have an equal saying.

 

For now, i think its best for me to stop posting here, and ask all who is still interested and as far as they have not done so, to registrate and post on the Council Forum, so we can start discussing what this Council shouldbe all about.

I think thats more usefull then keep posting/replying here about how things could be.

 

http://www.phpbbserver.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=eligc

 

Its time to get concrete with the Guild Leaders.

 

Jez

Edited by Jezebelle

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I've been reading all this and i can see the color this is taking... Everyone is bitching against Jezebelle and the way she is managing this... <_<

 

Lets make one thing clear

 

The GUILDLEADERS COUNCIL is NOT JEZEBELLE Council, the idea is to take all this ideas to the Council Forum, and discuss them there... but to make this the LEADERS of the GUILDLEADERS COUNCIL MUST be chosen...

 

The way for it to be chosen, is going to be decided in Council Forums, maybe a democratic election where all the guildleaders OR guild representatives can vote, if you have other ideas post them there :)

 

This means that JEZEBELLE may or may not be a member of the council leadership, so that means that if you want to bitch at something or someone about this matter, COME AND HELP US to set up this whole idea... and then bitch :P

 

The first issue that the ELECTED council leaders must do is to set up the rules, these may or may not include the ideas here, and you can post new ideas or dicuss about other ones you don't like...

 

and i repeat JEZEBELLE MAY NOT be in the council leaders group at all, so her ideas, even when they will be discussed as all others ideas, do not represent the feelings of the GUILDLEADERS COUNCIL...

 

If you want to make a difference betwen what you don't want the guild leaders council to be and what you expect from it, come and help.

 

If you are not a guildleader and want to participate, make a post, however if more than one guild memeber want to join and to express him/herself it will be a problem at the time of making a vote, so to eliminate this kind of problems in place of making your sign up as LOTHARION OR KIT make it as "CEL" and just give the password to Lotharion or Kit :), this is and idea and should not be dicussed here but in the council forums :)

 

JOIN and lets make a BETTER EL, if possible, YOU can make the difference :P

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DragonSlayer...

 

*sigh*

 

This is NOT a war against Jezebelle. This is a series of practicalities that should be outlined... and IMHO, outlined prior to the meeting.

 

How many guilds are there in EL? Athough the guild page on the EL site doesn't not post a count, I would guess in the neighborhood of 70. Let's assume that 1/4 of them are dead guilds or highly inactive. That still leaves approximately 50 guilds. Let's not assume that they all show up for the meeting (despite issues of timezeones, etc that I have previously posted).

 

50 voices all talking at once with ideas on management, structure, design, purpose, responsibilities, contigincies, etc... That's a LOT of talk. Believe me, I've had meetings with much less to discuss... with a much smaller crowd and have them go hours. This is not an easy task. Do not fool yourself into thinking it will be.

 

Thus, one way to counter the daunting meetings that, so far, are based on a "let's start from scratch" mentality is to come up with a basic outline, covering many of the points I have delimited for you previously and to include any and all other points that I'm sure many of you have thought of.

 

This outline doesn't have to be LAW. It needs to be something that starts to detail the basic purpose and functionality of the council. Then at the meeting, you can step through each part. Allow people to either vote for it, or to suggest counter proposals. At the end of the meeting, the organizer would then take these notes, and redraft based on the majority view.

 

(Now do these last four paragraphs sound anti-Jezebelle?? I think not).

 

And as far as your comment about a "Lotharion or Kit" or even "CEL" sign, the only solid part of this council I've heard is that it is for guild leaders. Technically I'm not, and I will not start impersonating Lotharion. Thus, you all have my opinions and suggestions here, in this PUBLIC forum.

 

If you now want to think that this is Jezebelle bashing still... so be it. I'm not here to change your mind. That is your perogative.

 

And if you think that my opinoins do not belong here, then I truly worry that the council, backed by such attitudes, will look like in the coming weeks, where dissenting opinions are shunned and asked to leave.

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KIT... (hehe just wanted to begin with this :P )

 

I am not saying it is easy, i guess it will be hard, very hard, but i am sure that if a lot of ppl with diferent point of view like you and me does not join, then it will too easy for my taste :), Discussions are what make more enjoyable the happy moments :), and even if we sometime get an intermediate point of view i am sure that we could have came up with the best of the ideas :)

 

You want to express your opinion join us.... the fact that Loth is not here shouldn't stop CEL from joining, just sign in as... lets say "CEL" or "CEL representative" as any other guild could do, i was just giving an example, and thus can be "-DD- representative" i will do it myself, that is just a name, and shouldn't be a reason to exclude a guild, just be sure the ppl who knows the pass are full trustworthy :) and sign your post as KIT ;P

 

the fact is if we make the GuildLeaders Council it may or may not work, but if we don't do it i am sure it won't work, we can at least give it a try :P

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Dear DragonSlayer,

I can't agree with you. From prior posts in this thread it seems that the only good and proper way of thinking is the one that supports this idea and JezeBelle.

 

Now I will speak only for myself. Not as a guild master of the Seridia Viatoris (especially that we do NOT think about us as about guild, but rather gathering of friends). I will NOT speak as a mod. I will speak as a normal player with forums access and who plays Eternal Lands for some time.

You can't honestly say that Ghrae's post attacked JezeBelle in any way. These were just doubts, questions and worries. He didn't get even one answer that would solve any of the problems he mentioned. I agree with him completely.

You want to express your opinion join us....

That's exectly what he was taslking about. If we are not with you you take away our righta to speak out our opinions. Why shall we join you to express our opinions? Are we worse not joining you? Are our opinions worth less?

 

Dear JezeBelle,

The whole Guild Council is creating completely without plan - what, being very honest, it's the way leading straight to chaos, disappointments and troubles.

It's like saying, 'Hey, let's settle new country. We will make up nice name and then we will think how it will work, how to pay for its existance, how to convince people to leave in it, etc. And if somebody doesn't like OUR idea he is just stupid/is not good leader/is not good man'.

That's the impression I got and I can say one thing - I don't like it at all.

There is NO discussion in this forums, just attacking people that have the courage to thinks other way than this ideas supperters/creators.

From early beginning this is claiming to be the only right idea for guild community in Eternal Lands. Guess what? It's not true. There as many ideas for it as guilds and their members. Nobody has monopoly on the truth, not me, nor you, nor Ghrae, just nobody. That's why I would suggest respecting others thoughts/opinions and discussint them, not attacking.

If the work of the Council is to look like the 'discussion' in this thread I am happy Seridia Viatoris is away from it. It will be like typical parliement, where is more shouts, yells, rows and nasty accusations that proper and useful work.

Another point was raised by LadyReni, what about guildless players. The Council wants to decide about them and you, how great of you, allow them to have one representative in your Council. It would be funny, if it is a joke, but it isn't. According to the basics, every guild leader will be allow to vote. Even guildleaders whose guilds are counting like 1-3 members. I ask, why they are to have more laws than guildless people? There are much more of them than players in any of the guilds.

There are many problems that aren't solved and, what's worse, you seem not to have even a shade of idea how to solve them. You're very hurraoptimistic that the Council will work. You have my best wishes. I really wish your good luck and I hope it will work.

Vanyel (speaking only myself)

Edited by vanyel

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So...

Sticking to what Roja said, we can't (or shouldn't) set up some kind of organisation to struggle against those that can make a day in EL awful by some non-against the rules but yes annoying act, we have just to let them step over us.

And, Vanyel, I think you're getting things a bit out of hand, no one's thinking bad about people not willing to join the council. I think that it was that unfortunate post by MagpieLee about the "outlaw guilds" that started this out... but it's not that way, no one actually agreed with that (of course not).

Just try to see beyond, try to see the real intention.

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So...

Sticking to what Roja said, we can't (or shouldn't) set up some kind of organisation to struggle against those that can make a day in EL awful by some non-against the rules but yes annoying act, we have just to let them step over us.

 

I have strange impression you haven't read Roja's post.

 

And, Vanyel, I think you're getting things a bit out of hand, no one's thinking bad about people not willing to join the council. I think that it was that unfortunate post by MagpieLee about the "outlaw guilds" that started this out... but it's not that way, no one actually agreed with that (of course not).

Just try to see beyond, try to see the real intention.

 

Once again, you haven't read the post, mine this time.

 

 

 

And please, if you are only posting here to be negative, stop posting, you have made your point clear enough.

 

Why? Everybody is free to express their opinions. Even it they're negative and somebody doesn't like them. The 'democracy' was call out many times in this thread, and this simple sentence is against the very basics of democracy.

 

And again; and perhaps this will make my point clear about the qualities of a Guildleader; a guildleader should be able to put away personal issues for a greater good. I get the feeling you do not have those qualities. The again, if Im wrong, pls proof my wrong in becoming part of the non-guildleaders council and perhaps you will get voted to sit in the Guild Council so you can express your ideas.

 

As long as thats not the case, a discussion with you is rather pointless here.

 

 

Longest I'm trying to see beyond less I optimistic am.

Vanyel

Edited by vanyel

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Just a few thoughts about this idea, and the people behind it. This is not official, as I am not the Guild Master of AID.

 

1.) The words you used, that have been taken as the "unfortunate misinterpretation" - I'm still trying to see what they are supposed to be taken as. Maybe someone will clear up this "misconception" as saying what they meant, or is the dark promise behind those words the true intention?

 

2.) Kit makes a valid point, and the reply is that he's just looking to make trouble, just leave. Maybe I'm wrong, but a true democratic council would HAVE to hear all sides, whether in support or dissent. Again, this attitude is worrisome.

 

3.) People are signing up - okay, nothing bad about that. Here's the problem, as has already been pointed out - What are they signing on to? The idea of a council of guilds... Good, but, haven't we been down this road before? And where did we go then, and how do we presume not to repeat whatever we did or didn't do then that stalled out the idea? Well, we'll plan that after everyone's already on the bandwagon... NO! it doesn't work like that - You need at least a sketch of a plan BEFORE you start something, and you don't have that (at least as far as I can see).

 

4.) This should have its own forum for the idea - and it does now, which is good. At least any tacit control by one guild cannot be exercised in such.

 

5.) Helping newbies - I cannot see how this council can regulate this in any way, or why it should bother. Are there not enough NHs behind the #help_me command, enough people camping by beam, and/or enough people in channel 1 offering their help? As I see it, if you are in the game to help others, that should be your only motivation - if they appreciate your efforts, then let their gratitude be sufficient. I don't need a "council" to tell me when I should help people, or how I should help them.

 

I cannot support this idea as stands; there are just too many holes in the nonexistant plan. Then again, I speak for me, and only for me.

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Vanyel, yeah, I read both posts, and took those ideas out of them, so maybe your way of expressing things?

And @Arnieman: you think it's really a dark second intention behind when I say that "no one agreed to it" (I include myself) right after? of course that's a misconception.

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Here's a question I think should be answered. What about a guild that has no set GM? UTi is owned by our bot, how are we supposed to have fair and equal representation? And this IS supposed to be about making things fair for all, right? So how is it fair to say that if we don't have a set gm, or in CEL's case there GM is on a LOA and ghrae is one of the acting leaders, that we can't be represented as a guild? You said ghrae could join the guildless ones, but he's NOT guildless.

 

I see everyone jumping on the bandwagon, but I don't think anyone really knows where it's heading. This is a grand idea, but an idea only. It lacks organization.

 

 

Quote from Jeze's first post :

For day-to-day issues we can have a board of about 5 members of the Council.

 

Now, how is this going to be chosen? Most of the guilds in this game don't know each other well enough to cast a fair majority vote. So that leaves the popularity vote. So how will that be fair? The 5 most popular, not nessecarily most competent people in the lead.

 

Also, what about the guilds that are non-english speaking? How can it be assured that they are going to get fair and equal representation? I know several guilds that are only polish,czech, or latin speaking guilds.Do you know all the different languages to be able to communicate with them properly? Has anyone approached them about this idea to make sure that they know about it and can be included?

 

Instead of giving a brush off like Ghrae got, how about really formulating some kinda answer to appease the doubters doubts. Instead of trying to dismiss us, give answers, maybe persuading some of us, instead of causing more doubt.

 

As others have stated, this is NOT an attack on Jeze, this is TRYING (without much success) to get answers to valid questions.

 

(As before, my opinion is my opinion, not to reflect UTi's stand in the matter.)

 

**Fixed that ghrae :D**

Edited by LadyWolf

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For clarification, Kit (aka Ghrae) is NOT acting leader of CEL. I'm one of several leaders in the guild. And I would have to talk with guild CEL about any official stance.

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And, Vanyel, I think you're getting things a bit out of hand, no one's thinking bad about people not willing to join the council. I think that it was that unfortunate post by MagpieLee about the "outlaw guilds" that started this out... but it's not that way, no one actually agreed with that (of course not).

Just try to see beyond, try to see the real intention.

 

Let's make it clear then:

 

 

Though the idea seems plausible and I would like to see this, I can't help but feel that there would be some inter-guild disputes. Would you be asking them to resolve these issues or just put on a nice face for the Guild Council meetings?

 

Also, technically I'm a GM - though I do not think of myself that way. What would you say to those small 'guilds' who are at least willing to take a positive interest in this?

 

 

and now this:

 

Though the idea seems plausible and I would like to see this, I can't help but feel that there would be some inter-guild disputes. Would you be asking them to resolve these issues or just put on a nice face for the Guild Council meetings?

 

I know some guilds are having trouble. Still, I would expect a mature attitude from any GuildLeader. I think we all are after one thing; make this World a better place..and we all can tribute to that by co-operating with eachother.

Even when a guild is 'in war'with another guild, their leaders can still act polite in a meeting. In rl, worldleaders do the same..

 

And..to take it a step further..leaders who refuse to sit at a council meeting..can be adressed as 'outlaw guilds' and be facing the concequences

 

Also, technically I'm a GM - though I do not think of myself that way. What would you say to those small 'guilds' who are at least willing to take a positive interest in this?

 

Every guild has a guidleader..and every guildleader can sit in at the Council.

 

I can't agree with you. Considering that it is JezeBelle's answers in RED colour it wasn't MagpieLee who suggested infamous 'outlaw guilds' list.

Edited by vanyel

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It seems we are going around in circles here.

 

I simply cannot believe you are botching on something that dont even excists yet..again..NO rules or laws have been layed down yet..Why?? simply because the Council doenst excists yet!

 

So please..stop posting might-be's and could-be's on this forum, and sighn up for the Council so we can actualy get started to work thing out.

 

Those that dont believe in the project; fine, no problem, you are entitled to your opinion, just as others do.

 

As I said before..and Dragonslayer as well..this is NOT the Jez-Council..I only brought it up..I do not make the rules, I do not decide what and who is gonna be in the Council and all..I JUST brought it up..and now, those who see a future in this, can help build it.

We wont see eye to eye on everything, but thats ok..we can work out a compromise..thats life..all about compromises.

 

Jez

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I only brought it up..I do not make the rules, I do not decide what and who is gonna be in the Council and all..

 

That just doesn't seem to be entirely true. You HAVE decided who is gonna be in the council, by deciding it can only be guild leaders. Not even guild representatives like some people seem to think, people that a guild decided is best to represent them, according to you it's only the official GM's - which you can be by having 30k gc and a skill over 39, nothing more.

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So please..stop posting might-be's and could-be's on this forum, and sighn up for the Council so we can actualy get started to work thing out.

 

 

You say stop posting the could-be's and might-be's and just join. NO. I, as well as others, have valid issues that need to be addressed BEFORE signing up for something. Everyone wants to compare EL to real life. Well in real life I don't make it a point to sign up for anything prior to looking into it thoroughly and getting answers to any questions that I may have.

 

You brought the idea up, now give your thoughts, or opinions to the questions that are asked. How hard is that? True they may not be the "final say so" of the counsil, but give some sort of answer, instead of dismissing us. Is this what is going to happen when the counsil is formed? If we question you too much are you going to just brush us off? (you meaning counsil as a whole)

 

 

 

To Jez:

 

After this counsil is formed (if it is), what role are you going to play?

 

Please answer the questions posed to you as the one who brought the idea up in the first place. Thank you.

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Any guild should be able to join. It should not be decided by one guild leader in a guild council(hint hint) who joins and who does not join. I know that maybe some of us want extra power in the game but this council should be equal!No special powers to anyone! No discrimination! No trying to scare people into joining!.

That would make a good Guild council.

 

( I really need to make a guild)

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I only brought it up..I do not make the rules, I do not decide what and who is gonna be in the Council and all..

 

That just doesn't seem to be entirely true. You HAVE decided who is gonna be in the council, by deciding it can only be guild leaders. Not even guild representatives like some people seem to think, people that a guild decided is best to represent them, according to you it's only the official GM's - which you can be by having 30k gc and a skill over 39, nothing more.

 

 

*sighs*

 

An idea starts with an idea..and a Guild Council with all guildleaders WAS the idea.

If i have an idea for new chocolate chip cookies, I cant start off by making donuts, am I?

 

Guildleaders, imo, should be resposible, wanting best for the guild and game and be mature enough to set away differences with other guild/players for a Greater Good.

 

THATS why I said the Guild Council should excists out of Guild Leaders.

 

 

Jez

 

So please..stop posting might-be's and could-be's on this forum, and sighn up for the Council so we can actualy get started to work thing out.

 

 

You say stop posting the could-be's and might-be's and just join. NO. I, as well as others, have valid issues that need to be addressed BEFORE signing up for something. Everyone wants to compare EL to real life. Well in real life I don't make it a point to sign up for anything prior to looking into it thoroughly and getting answers to any questions that I may have.

 

As long as not all who would LIKE to participate in this Council have sighned up, no rules and such can be made.

You brought the idea up, now give your thoughts, or opinions to the questions that are asked. How hard is that? True they may not be the "final say so" of the counsil, but give some sort of answer, instead of dismissing us. Is this what is going to happen when the counsil is formed? If we question you too much are you going to just brush us off? (you meaning counsil as a whole)

 

Again..how can the rules and decisions be made if the Council isnt even formed yet?

 

 

To Jez:

 

After this counsil is formed (if it is), what role are you going to play?

 

Please answer the questions posed to you as the one who brought the idea up in the first place. Thank you.

 

My role depends on the other Guildleaders, how they vote, ofcourse. I may just be a Council Member, or I may be in the Daily Board. I dont know.

Edited by Jezebelle

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Any guild should be able to join. It should not be decided by one guild leader in a guild council(hint hint) who joins and who does not join. I know that maybe some of us want extra power in the game but this council should be equal!No special powers to anyone! No discrimination! No trying to scare people into joining!.

That would make a good Guild council.

 

( I really need to make a guild)

 

 

Every Guild has a guidleader, and is therefore able to join. Those that have a bot as guildleader can perhaps have a representative in the Council.

This should be discussed after the Council is formed.

 

Extra Power? Guilddleaders do not have extra power then others..and there for the Guild Council neither.

 

Scare people into joining? How so? You join or dont, up to you..no prizens no rewards, no punishments for not joining..

 

I am not gonna discuss the rules and such about the Council on this forum anymore.

Those that want to be part of the Council can sighn up to the forum mentioned and we will form and shape the Council from there.

For those that first want to know more how things work out: you can always join the Council on a later date when the rules and such are set.

 

 

Jez

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Or, you could very well actually take the suggestion I and I think others TRIED to make - give some plan that actually makes this more than just a regurgitation of a tried and tired idea.

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