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Lachesis

The portland library - A comprehensive reference

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Sorry guys, but I don't see a problem here. Vandalism/Abuse/Spam won't be an issue, and sure, the disclaimer/warranty can be put on the mainpage, making sure that the information provided may not be 100% reliable.

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Sorry guys, but I don't see a problem here.

disclaimer/warranty can be put on the mainpage ... may not be 100% reliable.

211242[/snapback]

problem: it's then useless for storylines work

 

I'll give an example

playerA and playerB decide to write a story about dragons(for example). they go to the wiki and research. playerA misses one story, playerB misses a different one.

both write with slight diversions from the officially accepted storyline(this alone is a problem already)... and their stories have huge conflicts. they can't both go into official storylines.

playerA and playerB both post their stories to the wiki, not noticing each others' work.

playerC comes along, reads their two stories, and is hopelessly confused about which is correct.

and hence either decides not to bother writing about it(we lose a potentially valuable writer), decides which one to accept as true (and the problem gets worse), or asks someone who knows the situation(storylines leaders... which is what you currently need to do anyway, and no-one knows all of the stories)

 

or for a more subtle problem:

playerX reads a story, finds a gramatical error, and fixes it, inadvertantly changing the meaning of the sentance(which is quite possible to do, and it can be nasty)

playerY reads the story that was posted by a storyliens leader, sees that the only changes made were small gramatical issues (assuming you do some sort of changelog, and playerY actually goes reads it or the changes made), and assumes that what's in there is correct. but it no longer is

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how about we just stick to putting official texts on the main website, and editing/developing stories on the forums? :)

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As I mentioned above, and as I stated clearly on the starting page of the wiki (that none of you cared to visit so far), information that is not part of the game, like fan fiction, has to be clearly recognizable as such, for instance by marking it in some way. So your issue is actually none. Furthermore, it would be trivial to contact both authors and make them aware of the conflict, or even (if it is tiny) just correct it yourself.

 

The other problem exists only if you plan to make completed stories editable, which I didn't expect to happen. However, of course mediawiki has a solution for that as well. First of all, yes there is a changelog, or more exactly: everyone can look up who has made exactly what changes in a comprehensive history, just like in a versioning system like SVN or CVS. Also you can have older versions displayed. And finally you can track changes in an article, and that's where your problem dissolves: every author will of course track changes on his or her work, and the "differences" view would immediately reveal the problem to the author, so the misleading formulation wouldn't even exist for long.

 

One thing you need to understand: a wiki is not a forum. It works completely differently. It's also not a static webpage. And it's neither something between both nor a replacement for any. I can only repeat that there are numerous articles about wikipedia and how it works, in press, the web and wikipedia itself. Check them out! Finally, you can visit the test wiki and learn by doing.

 

Lachesis

Edited by Lachesis

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how about we just stick to putting official texts on the main website, and editing/developing stories on the forums? :)

211275[/snapback]

then we're back to the original problem, and we need some good way to be able to search through stories and get an overview and such, because it's hard to keep track of everything, which was why Lyanna was after an archiver for so long

don't get me wrong, I'm not against the idea, it just doesn't solve all problems(as far as I can tell)

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Especially for authors and editors, but also for developers, moderators, newbie helpers and players, a common hypermedia reference for these various types of information would be of inestimable value.

209988[/snapback]

But Lachesis, by this very statement you imply it WOULD solve our problems.

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As I mentioned above, and as I stated clearly on the starting page of the wiki (that none of you cared to visit so far),

I know that different wiki software can have different features, but I have played around with wikis before, I'm not saying that it can't work because of my comments, they're issues that need to be considered in implementation
information that is not part of the game, like fan fiction, has to be clearly recognizable as such, for instance by marking it in some way.
okay, say the head of storylines writes something, but it's not a checked final copy, and someone bases their work on it. what I'd do about this is have several sections. one is the official stories section. only devs have edit rights here. then you have the fan fiction/RP section. anyone can write there, and it doesn't have to fit in. then you have the usualy stories and such that people post, which may or may not become part of the official story. authors and devs can edit there, whether other people can edit as well is up to the author(or simply not allowed, depending on the wiki)
So your issue is actually none. Furthermore, it would be trivial to contact both authors and make them aware of the conflict, or even (if it is tiny) just correct it yourself.
sure. but with the tools set up right, I'd hope that devs/admin wouldn't have to spend much time admining the wiki. and if there's a number of people writing fan fiction that mighr be seen as a resource by other people (viral fanfic? :) ) then that could become a lot of work were someone to try to correct everything in it(*weeble*)
One thing you need to understand: a wiki is not a forum. It works completely differently. It's also not a static webpage. And it's neither something between both nor a replacement for any.
yes, I'm aware of this, I have at least a basic understanding of how a wiki works and what they can typically do. I know that it can work for this job
I can only repeat that there are numerous articles about wikipedia and how it works, in press, the web and wikipedia itself. Check them out! Finally, you can visit the test wiki and learn by doing.

 

Lachesis

211281[/snapback]

I'm in favour of using a wiki for all this. I simply want to find all possible issues, so that the wiki can be set up to avoid them beforehand

 

 

 

 

I hope you didn't expect it to :)

211287[/snapback]

if we're using a wiki: actually, yes. and I think that if the problems are solved, it actually can

if we're posting to the main website official stories: no, I know it can't work best, hence why I'm behind using a wiki

Edited by ttlanhil

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how about we just stick to putting official texts on the main website, and editing/developing stories on the forums? :)

211275[/snapback]

 

 

Agreed. Ths PL library will be a fan fictional site.

It will not operate as a tool for official stoyline work.

 

 

Actually, I'm looking forward to ttlanhil's idea. If you would continue it, I think it will be a valuable tool for quest/storyline writers. So please consider finishing that one.

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i dont have time to read about wiki's..i admit i know not much about them at all. I also don't have time to really get involved in this either. So I'll leave it up to the head story writers to decide what is best for whatever you're arguing over :)

Just let me know what the decision is in the end :)

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But Lachesis, by this very statement you imply it WOULD solve our problems.

211288[/snapback]

No I don't. (calls) Is there anyone here that agrees with Aislinn that "of inestimable value" implies "solving all problems"? (enjoys the silence) Well, you see Aislinn, nobody shares that fear with ya :)

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No I don't. (calls) Is there anyone here that agrees with Aislinn that "of inestimable value" implies "solving all problems"? (enjoys the silence) Well, you see Aislinn, nobody shares that fear with ya :)

211294[/snapback]

First, I didn't say "all" problems, I said "our" problems. Which is reliable and officially approved information easily found to base other things on.

 

Secondly:

Especially for authors and editors, but also for developers, moderators, newbie helpers and players, a common hypermedia reference for these various types of information would be of inestimable value.

Now if you could tell me why mods and developers and authors and editors would want to base anything they do on potentially inaccurate information, I would be happy to listen.

 

Thirdly: In my very humble opinion, "inestimable value" would apply to information I knew I could rely on, not fan fiction from questionable sources.

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Hmm, seems there is sill some misunderstanding ... The primary use of the wiki is not intended to be the stories themselves (though they could find their place their too) but concise articles, a collection of facts. For instance, the article "The Great War" shouldn't contain Tum's full story, but the important facts about the war that other writers need for their stories. Also there should be articles that are called "Hyanithe IX" or "Lord Luxin" explaining what is known about these people, but again not complete stories. Of course, there could be a (locked) article "Stories:The Great War" that contains Tumaros' text. Also, the wiki is intended to aid in developing new stories as a reference, not as a notepad (though that would be possible as well). Finally, the content is reliable, if you want to be absolutely sure it costs you two clicks to get the last version written by an "authorized" person. I can't retell everything about how wikis work here, I'm afraid. However, this discussion consumes multiple the time it costs just reading an arbitrary one of the uncounted articles (I don't link because I have the German versions). Why can't we just try? You will see it'll work.

Edited by Lachesis

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Actually, I'm looking forward to ttlanhil's idea. If you would continue it, I think it will be a valuable tool for quest/storyline writers. So please consider finishing that one.

211291[/snapback]

eh...

I'll wait a bit longer to see how the wiki thing ends up. if set up right, then it can do most of what my work would, and you can keep it all in one place

if that doesn't happen, I'll put it back on my to-do list... but don't expect much to be done on it soon. like I said in the other thread for that, exams time is coming up at uni (and that means another round of assignments before exams)... and while I enjoy working on EL stuff more, and it'll be more helpful in the long run(no really, coding for EL is real-world stuff, and vastly different from academic coding for uni), the low-relevance stuff at uni is what gets me the grades, so I should really focus on that (even though it's hard)

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Agreed. Ths PL library will be a fan fictional site.

It will not operate as a tool for official stoyline work.

211291[/snapback]

 

Wrong. I'm not even sure whether we should allow fan fiction on it at all.* It's to be a reference. You may curse it but you can't forbid people to use it.

 

*) Discussion on article Talk:Fan_fiction

Edited by Lachesis

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Hmm, seems there is sill some misunderstanding ...  The primary use of the wiki is not intended to be the stories themselves (though they could find their place their too) but concise articles, a collection of facts. For instance, the article "The Great War" shouldn't contain Tum's full story, but the important facts about the war that other writers need for their stories. Also there should be articles that are called "Hyanithe IX" or "Lord Luxin" explaining what is known about these people, but again not complete stories. Of course, there could be a (locked) article "Stories:The Great War" that contains Tumaros' text. Also, the wiki is intended to aid in developing new stories as a reference, not as a notepad (though that would be possible as well).

err... that sounds rather like what I was working on, though in freeform editing rather than fill-in-the-form... I suspect that's only a part of what you intend the wiki to be used for though, since you mentioned prices, NPCs, quests, etc

however...

but the important facts about the war that other writers need for their stories
:) if other writers are allowed to rely on it, then it has to be correct. and trust/reliability of the random person aside, we can't afford to have this editable by anyone. this sort of reference material has to be checked to be correct by a dev. the official distinction thing again
Why can't we just try? You will see it'll work.

211302[/snapback]

yes please. and in the worst case scenario, it'll be valuable for making it easier to fill in any other archival/indexing system.

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eh...

I'll wait a bit longer to see how the wiki thing ends up. if set up right, then it can do most of what my work would, and you can keep it all in one place

if that doesn't happen, I'll put it back on my to-do list... but don't expect much to be done on it soon. like I said in the other thread for that, exams time is coming up at uni (and that means another round of assignments before exams)... and while I enjoy working on EL stuff more, and it'll be more helpful in the long run(no really, coding for EL is real-world stuff, and vastly different from academic coding for uni), the low-relevance stuff at uni is what gets me the grades, so I should really focus on that (even though it's hard)

211303[/snapback]

 

That is OK ttlanhil, exams are far more important than EL.

So when/if you get the time, please notify me :)

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Wrong. I'm not even sure whether we should allow fan fiction on it at all. It's to be a reference. You may curse it but you can't forbid people to use it.

211304[/snapback]

 

I'm not cursing anything, quite the opposite, I love the idea :)

 

However, we will not use it for official storyline/quest development, unless you can put my concerns at ease. What we are really looking for is a reference tool, editable by a select few people. For stories we still have this forum.

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That is OK ttlanhil, exams are far more important than EL.

So when/if you get the time, please notify me  :)

211306[/snapback]

well, yeah, but that's the less important part :)

as the person who was working on archival, someone who's read and worked with a fair bit of the stories on EL, and as a coder, I think a wiki is the better option... as long as: (1) it holds more than just stories(else something simpler works better), and (2) it's designed so that anything that people are expected to be able to rely upon is only editable by devs(and admin, of course)

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Wrong. I'm not even sure whether we should allow fan fiction on it at all.* It's to be a reference. You may curse it but you can't forbid people to use it.

 

*) Discussion on article Talk:Fan_fiction

211304[/snapback]

You're right. We can't forbid it, but we don't have to accept it's legitimacy either, unless some quality control issues are met. Again, I don't know why this is so hard, reference is worthless if it's not guarantee'd as correct. I don't think a uni professor will still give high marks for a thesis based on inaccurate info.

 

Nobody is saying a wiki is a bad idea, we all seem to like it. (And I imagine we all do know how a wiki works :) ) All we are asking for is some quality control.

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What we are really looking for is a reference tool, editable by a select few people. For stories we still have this forum.

211308[/snapback]

with a wiki, you can split things up into sections, and have permissions based on sections. one section might be NPCs. and you might allow anyone signed-in to edit it[note]. another section might be quest-notes, and again anyone can edit it.

another section might be fan fiction, and only devs and the author can edit posts, but anyone can leaves notes on it

and another section might be the storyline, only devs can post&edit there, and signed-in users can read and leaves notes (which may or may not get cleaned up regularly... notes are kinda similar to replies in the forums)

 

[footnote]: we can make signing in to the wiki something as simple as being logged onto the forums (if hosted on EL, and you're willing to have the code edited a bit).

then anyone with reason enough to be posting has an account (if they're not on the forums, they probably don't have enough experience with EL to be posting), and we don't allow anonymous users to edit stuff (which some wikis do allow)

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Great Derin, then please try it out. About the selected few: I can tell you there will be very few people working on it anyway. So you will have your selected few :) And about the open for editing: you shouldn't picture it as a page where just everyone can does what he or she likes. Every single letter that is changed is logged with the change itself, the author of the change, and the date and time of the change. These info is incredibly easy to obtain; it's just on ore two clicks, as opposed to CVS for instance. Also if you don't trust the editors you can view the unedited version with only two click as well. So, in fact the information there is as reliable as the author you choose, and if you only want to trust a selected few, you can do this, just click the latest version from one of those. But it's not necessary to exclude others entirely, you will see it'll help much more than it'll hurt. Give it a chance!

 

P.S. Something I eventually didn't mention yet: offical storyline will not be editable by everyone, it's copyrighted content and not intended to ever be edited anyway.

Edited by Lachesis

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You're right.  We can't forbid it, but we don't have to accept it's legitimacy either, unless some quality control issues are met.  Again, I don't know why this is so hard, reference is worthless if it's not guarantee'd as correct.  I don't think a uni professor will still give high marks for a thesis based on inaccurate info. 

 

Nobody is saying a wiki is a bad idea, we all seem to like it.  (And I imagine we all do know how a wiki works :) )  All we are asking for is some quality control.

211320[/snapback]

 

(puts the cassette into the recorder and presses 'play') The information is reliable because you can choose a reliable author in the history. The information is reliable because you can choose a reliable author in the history. The information is reliable because you can choose a reliable author in the history. The information is reliable because you can choose a reliable author in the history. The information is reliable because you can choose a reliable author [...]

 

P.S. Mediawiki has very strong means of quality control, just they work differently than you suggest.

Edited by Lachesis

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Ok, going with that tape recorder...

What's to say the same player X and Player Y ttlan mentioned are going to use the same authors/edited versions? Same problem he mentioned will apply.

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