Infinate Slots in Storage?

[jamincollins]

Knowing that argument would come is exactly why I included enough additional RAM for the server to keep the entire storage contents in memory. Flush them out to disk periodically as they are changed. No need to load from disk as players log in and out, only at server startup and shut down and as changes are made.

 

Ed:

Only a half page of flowers? Then you must be outright excluding many of potions. I'm a potter too (among several other skills) and just to try and keep ingredients on hand I have almost a full page of flowers.

 

I'm currently at 184/200 slots. I only got to this point by utterly ditching books that I was keeping for new guild members, gifting my iron suit to other guild members, and actively trying to consolidate storages with my wife's character. Several times in the last month I've found myself at 200/200.

Edited May 25, 2007 by jamincollins

[ttlanhil]

Knowing that argument would come is exactly why I included enough additional RAM for the server to keep the entire storage contents in memory. Flush them out to disk periodically as they are changed. No need to load from disk as players log in and out, only at server startup and shut down and as changes are made.

sorry, but that's not practical... loading on login and keeping in memory for a few minutes after they logout can work, but loading all on startup just isn't a scalable design.

there's more than just storage(ed: although I should point out that the storage needed in RAM will be higher than the on-disk count for most data structure designs). and you need to consider the extra processing time when reading though them for what you want. I recently had to make changes to vakana's code, because holding records for just 10k players in memory (and she stores a lot less than the server would) increased the RAM usage about 3-4 times over, as well as driving up the CPU use many times more

Ed:

Only a half page of flowers?

sorry, underestimated, wasn't at storage at the time. I'm currently 3 slots away from a page of flowers, since I used up the red snaps, roses, and chrys in alch earlier today. so pretty much a full page

 

now, if I didn't have vakana buying and selling stuff for me, I might be using a couple more slots (5 or so), but even with that, I'm able to do a variety of skills as well as have some free storage space

Edited May 25, 2007 by ttlanhil

[Happy_G]

it is possible ttlan but alot of us alrounders find themselves hitting 200/200 slots on a fairly frequent basis. its going to happen more and more often with the next update coming, we are adding several different feathers, other new animal drops, the black dragon, and all the eng stuff, plus more items once they come out for eng, its going to become hard to be an allrounder. i hit 200/200 more often than i would like and i dont do any potioning thats the only skill i dont do, and at this point in time, its only b/c i dont have the storage space to do it

 

i do also keep all of my dmged armor tho, so for every dmged amor peice i also have a good one so that doubles it a bit there.

[trollson]

Upping the number of storage slots is not a long term solution -- the number of different items in the game will continue to increase, so there will always be player's crying for more.

The limit on storage slots is

part of the game

. Arguments comparing it to the number of different item types are misguided --

in RL do you have space for one of everything?

What may be needed is a different approach to storage; consider greater use of on-map storage instead. I go on quite a bit about this in the "Interacting with the Map" thread (see sig.), particularly storage under furnishings ("use item with wardrobe" etc).

 

Currently, on-map storage is only available using "hyperspace bags", which are not quite fit-for-purpose here. In comparison, storage is (1) secure, and (2) accessible from multiple locations, hbags rely on secrecy and remoteness, and only accessible from one place.

 

On-map storage should never be completely secure, but a bit more is needed to use hbags for your personal effects. A few pre-morning-coffee thoughts:

• Bags containing skull keys to become hbags rather than poof'ing (using one skull key), to insure your valuables against act-of-grue.
  
• Record "owner" as last user of the bag with the bag record. This allows the following:
  
• Lock 1 (item in bag) prevents bag from being opened when owner not online.
  
• Lock 2 prevents bag from being opened by other than owner.
  
• Some means to find closed hbags, rather than expensive stacks of skeleton keys. This would be more interesting as a thief/perception task than a magic spell (though both are possible).
  
• Thief's tools allow overcoming of Locks (consumes one lock from closed bag).
  
• Traps (items in bag) set off by failed lock-picking. These could do damage, or instil temporary-PK'ness (as the thief is marked as a such).
  

This adds a bit more security to hbags (or chests of draws etc.).

 

I would hope that this would add a new dimension to the game, as people become more territorial, with items stashed in favorite places, and the good'ol Thief could actually have a role. Guild maps become ideal places to store items with increased safety, but also become greater attraction for raids.

Edited June 7, 2007 by trollson

[Learner]

There is no database!

 

Payers in memory or on disk are in a fixed size structure. This means doing something like increasing the max storage slots requires conversion of all saved games and permamently increases the memory requirements of the server.

[kailomonkey]

What learner said

 

It's no use trying to justify a slot increase with clever maths. The trueth is, doubling storage slots will mean practically doubling server size (using the current system). All we can do as players is wait and hope someone up there decides to give us an early christmas present

 

In defence of the original infinate slots idea. If the structure was changed to allow slot number to change (as reached) from 100 to 200, and to 300 (for example) there would be less wastage on characters that are created and go un-used. But ofcourse. this would require alot of work to change to, which is currently not possible.

 

I would haphazardly predict that this issue will grow in focus someday as other issues are finished with (provided new. more important issues don't arise - the eternal cycle of workload ). Also, this post has not considered data transfer and client memory usage, or indeed any other applicable attributes that I cannot fane knowledge of.

 

Hopefully this is my final post on this topic. Farewell and fingers crossed

Edited May 25, 2007 by kailomonkey

[Vanyel]

I would rather say that strategy is about planning your developing self and not to do everything at once, but rather firstly gather ingredients for some essences, then coal and iron for bars, then make swords (armour), then mine some hydro, then make some hydro bars and them high-end armours.

Ingredients for fire essences take 3 slots, while essences themselves only one. Ingredients for iron bars take 3 slots, bars only one, etc. etc.

 

lol... if you use this strategy I can predict a future of slow progress in skills for you, that's for sure. I have my own strategies and they work fine, but as I said... so far I don't even have armors and weaps and such... just harvest+misc pretty much...so I will be very limited to going further after I start a/d training for real.

 

I'm really sorry to inform you your predictions are worth as much as the coming new resources. With the small difference, the predictions are pretty useless.

 

Maybe your "strategy" works if you only "play for fun" and don't care about progress, but many don't do that, me included, sure I play for fun in a way but without progress there is not that much fun in my opinion.

 

Maybe you should stop playing for a bit and get some life -_- Game is to have fun and only for this. In moment the game is starting to be about 'progress' one should take a break from it till some common sense makes him see the fun side at first place.

 

No one is looking for 10-50 items, they always want BIG quanties.. and just because one product requires just a few slots, why should there be a limit to variation of your production?

 

I will turn the question around, why there should NOT be a limitation to your production?

 

Some people want to plan ahead and be able to do "everything" whenever it's needed... not "Can you get me some HEs?" "Yes, wait a week and I have 1k for you after I have trashed/sold some other products and got enough storage slots..." The market is always hungry for items, and if your going to make money, you better have products that the market wants, and those can vary alot... and the same time you need things for yourself... and there we go... full storage... limited from using the whole game...

 

Strategy: keep in storage ingredients for and/or stock of most common and needed stuff.

 

I have seen many who just try and get rid of tons pretty usable items just because of the limit, so I would call this a problem.

Next time PM me in game please, I will surely take care of these tons of pretty usable items and keep them in my 50+ empty slots in storage.

 

Also about your "why store everything" comment... have you thought about that most items are used in some way in EL, so why would anyone throw items away? Most units require lots of time to get.

 

Have you read my post? Have you think about 'strategy'? Or you just happily posted. The game is about doing some planning. This way you can have some fun of doing anything. If everything is easy it becomes boring in no time.

[Beaverhunter]

Anshar:

A prediction isn't good because it's worth something... it's about if it's true or not, and it is.

 

Peoples ways of having fun is different, I as I said need to progress and cannot just stand still and "use what I have"... I want to be able to do everything in game, at a high level...then I use what I have...

 

There should be a limit as we all have said, but the limit shouldn't be so low that it starts to interfer on gameplay. EL is suppose to be classless, being forced to keep certain items and throw away others, is creating implicit classes.

 

So your strategic advise is that everyone should only do what is commonly used in EL?.. Right... If your answer is no, then you basicly argue vs. yourself, maybe time for you to take a break?

 

As I said I'm at 149/200 and that's without any armor,weapons or fighter and summoning related stuff...

 

I always read posts before I answer, and basicly your strategies make no sense, which is why this whole thread is active at all.

 

More on topic:

What's the biggest issue with the conversion, memory and HDD space?

Conversion, done automaticly by program I assume?

Memory, how big would the increase really be?

HDD Space, well that can hardly be an issue.

 

From what has been publicly revealed about the stats of the server it was said that server ran at like < 15% CPU load or so? What about the RAM? And HDD?

 

What would be another option to the current system? A database? There must be some other way to make such an adjustment pretty much dynamicly at any time.

Edited May 25, 2007 by Beaverhunter

[ttlanhil]

Peoples ways of having fun is different, I as I said need to progress and cannot just stand still and "use what I have"... I want to be able to do everything in game, at a high level...then I use what I have...

then do so. 200 storage slots won't stop you

There should be a limit as we all have said, but the limit shouldn't be so low that it starts to interfer on gameplay. EL is suppose to be classless, being forced to keep certain items and throw away others, is creating implicit classes.

well, gee, now that you put it that way, maybe it should be lowered to 150... having no pre-made classes is good, because players can chose which skills they want. however letting all players become masters in all skills limits trade interacton, etc, taking some of the MMO from the MMORPG.

just because you chose to level a certain half of the skills doesn't mean you have a class, beyond that you may call your character design one (eg the 'fighter' with a/d, magic, and maybe some pot or summon)

So your strategic advise is that everyone should only do what is commonly used in EL?.. Right... If your answer is no, then you basicly argue vs. yourself, maybe time for you to take a break?

if every player has a slightly different part of the market, then there's more interaction, because people don't just do everything for themselves. players would still find what there's a demand for and look to providing that, so there'd be someone in all the niche markets

I always read posts before I answer, and basicly your strategies make no sense, which is why this whole thread is active at all.

you may not agree with what he's said, but you should recognise that he has made his point

More on topic:

What's the biggest issue with the conversion, memory and HDD space?

Conversion, done automaticly by program I assume?

Memory, how big would the increase really be?

HDD Space, well that can hardly be an issue.

it'd be a program to update every player file, which might mean a downtime for an hour or three while they're processed, depending... but making that program and testing it will take some time too. available HDD space isn't really an issue at these scales, you can always add more, but the time spend reading/writing can have an impact on performance.

and as pointed out above, there's also an increase in network traffic when at storage or using #sto (remember that the filter is client-side, the whole list is sent)

What would be another option to the current system? A database? There must be some other way to make such an adjustment pretty much dynamicly at any time.

database won't be happening... there's a very simple way to be able to increase available slots, just record the number of slots in use before writing the data, then there's no blank slots, and you stop people adding after the limit in the code (or a config file), not based on the file format.

as far as the file goes, that's simple and effective. but it would also mean adjustments to the server code (if the code uses a linked list, then having more is simple. if it's an array with a #define'd size, that's probably not much harder... if stuff is hard coded, it's a lot more work, so I doubt it's the last)

 

ultimately, a limit on number of slots penalises those who multiclass more than those who focus on one or three skills... but hey, we have nexus doing that already, will that be the next target in order to let anyone do everything? if it goes up to 300 or 600 now, how long until people want it increased again? (and they will. storage has been increased before, and people are asking for more again)... and to be silly, will we later do away with levels, since that makes it hard for the newbies?

planning your storage and throwing out old stuff you no longer need can be part of the game... how many of yawl have a cupboard or box at home that will let you store anything you might want one day?

just sell stuff you don't want now, and buy it back later; if it's to/from players you probably won't lose money (you may lose a bit, you may gain a bit), but you keep stuff in circulation... wow, the economy is more active!

[Aislinn]

Peoples ways of having fun is different, I as I said need to progress and cannot just stand still and "use what I have"... I want to be able to do everything in game, at a high level...then I use what I have...

Everybody has a different idea of fun as you pointed out, and we can't please and accomodate all of the people all of the time...

Sometimes you need to drop the issue.

[hades]

I think u all have too much stuff in storage, come to kf and free a little to the poor fighters ;p

[Vanyel]

You can have my collection of rare flowers: red roses and red snapdragons, PM me in game

[Llywar]

database won't be happening... there's a very simple way to be able to increase available slots, just record the number of slots in use before writing the data, then there's no blank slots, and you stop people adding after the limit in the code (or a config file), not based on the file format.

as far as the file goes, that's simple and effective. but it would also mean adjustments to the server code (if the code uses a linked list, then having more is simple. if it's an array with a #define'd size, that's probably not much harder... if stuff is hard coded, it's a lot more work, so I doubt it's the last)

 

Is there some huge objection to databases among the EL developers? In just about ANY project of the scale of EL that I've seen the data storage would be implemented in a database of some kind. It takes care of all the implementation issues related to storage for you. And you don't have to be worried that your pile of flat-files will end up with corruptions if you make a code change. It seems like very little time gets spent on databases in computer science programs, but in the real world there is a reason that Larry Ellison gets to play with his Gulfstream. In theory you can maybe beat the DB with careful optimization of design by doing things on your own, but in practice it will generally be better to spend those man-hours on something else. You'll never beat the DB in the general case - your only hope is to customize your storage design around the very specific needs of your project, and then be stuck when your needs change.

 

A single storage-slots table would only consume space for slots that are actually occupied, so increasing the quota wouldn't cause problems with having tons of inactive accounts around. And it will be very fast if you index it correctly (which isn't really all that hard to do - just look at your queries).

 

Even if you don't want to completely rewrite the backend to use a database throughout, why not just create a DB and start putting new stuff in it, and as issues come up migrate one table at a time to the DB. I'd think that it making the storage more dynamic in a flat-file-based system wouldn't be any easier than just modifying the code that reads this data to instead run an SQL query.

 

I think that storage limitations are a good idea from a gameplay standpoint - it probably benefits newbies because it leads to stuff like med-level books being sold at firesale prices rather than just hoarded until somebody is willing to pay 500gc less than the NPC for them. It also causes players to have to make tradeoffs.

 

When I think of EL being classless I think of it being open for players to change directions at any time. That doesn't mean that any EL player should be able to switch from being a fighter to a crafter instantly and end up being just as proficient in the one as they were in the other. What you focus on is going to be where you will be strong. So, I don't think storage limitations get rid of the classless aspect of EL. You can just have a storage sale and change directions without any real penalty. If EL were a classed game then your only option would really be to delete your character.

 

So, while I think that storage limits should be set at some level for the sake of gameplay, I'm not big on the idea of limiting them due to software design issues. Sure, the practical side of things is that this simply has to be done until the design can be changed, but long-term the game should aim to eliminate technical barriers to ideal gameplay.

[ttlanhil]

Is there some huge objection to databases among the EL developers? In just about ANY project of the scale of EL that I've seen the data storage would be implemented in a database of some kind.

I could be picky and say that flat-file is a database, and you're thinking of an RDBMS... but that wouldn't be productive

personally, I like databases. when used appropriately. some people seem to like them a lot more, and use them even when a single, short flatfile would be sufficient.

radu, on the other hand, doesn't want one for the main data of EL (although he did make some tools that use databases for tracking of item counts, etc)... he also doesn't like adding library dependencies, which has some validity... ultimately, it's his decision, so whatever anyone else thinks isn't necessarily going to happen

It seems like very little time gets spent on databases in computer science programs, but in the real world there is a reason that Larry Ellison gets to play with his Gulfstream.

gee, very little time on them? that depends on the college/university staff... if they have far too many database people, and not enough people to teach more valuable skills (okay, using a database is valuable. but a little networking would be more valuable than a semester on database locking and scheduling and commit/rollbacks... guess which I had)

So, while I think that storage limits should be set at some level for the sake of gameplay, I'm not big on the idea of limiting them due to software design issues. Sure, the practical side of things is that this simply has to be done until the design can be changed, but long-term the game should aim to eliminate technical barriers to ideal gameplay.

fine. I'll clarify my point. there's some solid gameplay issues as to why there should be a limit. that's, maybe, 95% of the reason. and there's also more work involved to make the change. which people jumped on, thinking that if they can beat this down, then they get what they want (although what players want and what's good for them and the game is often divergent).

 

so to recap: no. for gameplay reasons. and although storage increases have happened, it's in larger steps and less frequently because of technical issues. talking about them won't get you more slots

Edited May 31, 2007 by ttlanhil

[Aislinn]

fine. I'll clarify my point. there's some solid gameplay issues as to why there should be a limit. that's, maybe, 95% of the reason. and there's also more work involved to make the change. which people jumped on, thinking that if they can beat this down, then they get what they want (although what players want and what's good for them and the game is often divergent).

 

so to recap: no. for gameplay reasons. and although storage increases have happened, it's in larger steps and less frequently because of technical issues. talking about them won't get you more slots

Needs reiterating, obviously.

[nicky]

I agree with TT on many of his points. I have alot of respect for the fact that the game was constucted from scratch using the fewest off the shelf libraries and with the most thoughfulness put into the architecture.

 

Frankly, most people who build games tend to use RDBMS for storing data, but the simplicity of the flat file system lends itsself to other benefits. I don't think it's right to knock it in the name of asking for more storage slots. I think 200 is alot considering that if you added up the total number of slots that you would need to hold at least 1 of each of the items in the game (minus books) that you could hold the vast majority of the items before running out of slots.

[neildog]

I think 200 is alot considering that if you added up the total number of slots that you would need to hold at least 1 of each of the items in the game (minus books) that you could hold the vast majority of the items before running out of slots.

 

I don't think you've read all of this thread - 700 items, 200 slots

[Beaverhunter]

With the argument some of you have "You do not need to have all items"... it kind of suggests that you assumes that some items of EL just are suppose to be pointless and unused... then why are they in game? People should decide how to play a game... not the software.

 

And I agree with neildog on the above one, there are many more items in game than slots, even if 273 of them are books that doesn't really need to be in storage.

 

And btw:

It's not like this suggestion and the whole deal with using a database is some kind of "do this do that" suggestion to make devs get some hard work ahead... as I have seen there are plenty of professional database builders/workers here around EL, I'm sure there are many who would love to help on whatever problems/work that has to be solved/done.

 

But of course, ttlanhil is right, in the end there is only one that has to decide to go for it or not. But this is just a suggestion.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Beaverhunter

[ttlanhil]

With the argument some of you have "You do not need to have all items"... it kind of suggests that you assumes that some items of EL just are suppose to be pointless and unused... then why are they in game? People should decide how to play a game... not the software.

okay, I'll ask a quick question... when you talk about having 200 items in storage... do you mean each player can have a different 200, or that storages only take exactly 200 item types, and no-one can store any other type of items?

silly question, right? right. then why is your argument that, since one person may not use an item, neither will anyone else?

 

I know how the classless argument goes, but... if you have one person that does only harvesting, another that does only fighting, and a third that does only crafting... will they use all slots? probably not. will the have the same items in storage? again, probably not. will they think of the same items as 'useless' to what they do? again, no (some things are common to nearly all classes. food, for example. but so much of what's in EL is only used by some of the people. anyone who thinks otherwise has a very narrow view, and may as well exit the thread now, because they won't be able to understand the valid points other people make)

And I agree with neildog on the above one, there are many more items in game than slots, even if 273 of them are books that doesn't really need to be in storage.

okay. there's a lot of items. does any one person use them all? does any one person have any need to have them all?

no. probably not even a large percentage. I don't summon anymore, but I still have a lot of the supplies, and I work on all other skills, to a reasonably high level. and I have over 40 slots free.

how is it done? by selling off what you don't need. not even throwing away, because the items you don't need now (or for a couple of weeks, or at all) will be needed by someone else (there are a rare few exceptions... but I know of someone who collects books like magic and craft pot... someone out there will buy)

I'm sure there are many who would love to help on whatever problems/work that has to be solved/done.

given what ent did with the item statistics, I imagine he'd be quite capable of setting up a database for players, maybe with some help on structure and indexing from people who work with databases a lot... it's not a matter of lack of ability or skill. it's a matter of design decision. from the person who has built or guided EL's technical state, for better or worse, to what it is today (as opposed to the more artistic side, which would be more roja's domain)

But of course, ttlanhil is right, in the end there is only one that has to decide to go for it or not. But this is just a suggestion.

how many times are people gonna suggest it?

seriously. he's heard of databases. he can do databases. he probably knows a few people who could help with design if he wanted... suggesting it again is pointless.

so lets not

[Ermabwed]

I took the liberty of counting the items in the RC2 client (don't have windows but doubt there were more added), I come to a total of 483 different items without books (25 items per itemXX.bmp, 20 of those, minus a few empty slots and the book pictures). These include at least 20 items that won't in game after update as far as I know (like different fruits and summon stone type of wood boards) and all different kinds of magic swords, the bandannas, crowns, unused keys etc.

An estimate of items excluding books that will be in game after update comes to 412 total, again including every type of magic sword and custom headgear (bandannas, crowns...), of course not counting enchanted great swords or armor (rapier of death, titanium cuisses of cooldown etc.).

Now with the current number of slots you obviously can't have all the items in storage (without cheating), but when you look at the 412 remaining items it's quite easy to dismiss, let's say another 100: magic swords, axes, newbie armor, weapons no one uses (battle hammers...) and nobody needs every type of armor or sword either if s/he isn't a somewhat pure fighter and then s/he doesn't need a whole lot of the remaining things).

Ok, so lets assume we narrowed our virtual storage down to 310 slots. We could throw out some more that don't necessarily have to be stored because they are used so seldom etc. but let's look at it from the other side:

What items does an allrounder need in storage?

A/D: set of cheap training gear, set of expensive training gear, pk add-ons (~30)

Harvesting: pickaxe, gloves, possibly swords (~2)

Alchemy: ores, flowers (~20)

Magic: essences (~10)

Potioning: vials, flowers, furs, minerals/ores (~20)

Summoning: in addition to essences (~10)

Crafting: (~25)

Engineering: let's say (~10)

Ok, some of the numbers are very rough guesstimates because I didn't go into every possible detail and because I'm working with the approach of "you don't need to have everything in storage" but I end up with less than 150 items which give ~50 storage slots for various projects and "extra" items... I guess this motivates me to throw out some more "useless" items to make room for a few engineering items

 

Of course with less strict course you will end up with a few more items. I'd be curious to see some work to be done to make my numbers more accurate (can a PKer survive with 30 slots of weapons/armor (essences, rings, potions etc. go in their respective categories)?).

 

Thanks for your time

 

PS: I took so long that ttl added a reply to this (probably shouldn't have gone to lunch in between ) but a quick glance confirms my guesstimate of 150 slots in use

[Ice]

Love the update, and love the new hats, that can only be bought from EL store.... but I storage strategies will not allow me to purchase any

[bep]

How about to sell extra storage space from EL shop? People who are desperate in storage space can buy 200 slots extra for lets say 5 dollar per year? This money can be invested in hardware.

[Peach]

why need more slots? there is more then enough already, myself, i dont even use 100 slots ^^

[bep]

why need more slots? there is more then enough already, myself, i dont even use 100 slots ^^

Because u dont manufacture, craft (need about 100 slot), and summon (also about 100 slot if u gather all animal skin by ur self like I do)?

 

A lot of people, that i know, trade and keep managing the storage. They dropped bags and leaving some animal stuff behind after killing animals, because they cant put in storage. At storage u will find abandoned bags with some flowers. Not cleaning those bags and managing storage needs more server time.

Edited June 7, 2007 by bep

[fyrrflyy]

why need more slots? there is more then enough already, myself, i dont even use 100 slots ^^

Because u dont craft (need about 100 slot) and summon (also about 100 slot if u gather all animal skin by ur self like I do)?

If you're summoning, and you use 100 slots, you are doing something seriously wrong. I summon, and I doubt I use more than 40 slots, if that.

For stones, you need SR's, Gypsum, Fur, Thread, Swords ~10 slots

For Actual summons, you need LE, Meat, Bones, every now and then couple different types of essence. So lets say ~20 because of different types of fur. So all in all for summoning, you only need ~30 slots, maybe ~40 if you have garbage you dont need.