whats your religon?

[Mister_Q]

I'd certainly like to know the truth. However, from twelve years of church on Sunday, Sunday school, Wednesday services, and even being Baptised, the only thing I took away from Christianity was "if you don't believe everything we tell you, you'll burn in hell."

 

Jesus is the only way to God? What if I don't want to know God? I've read about him, and he's not such a nice guy. You told me to read the Bible. How do you know I haven't already? I read the Bible over about two years, and it's quite scary. I'm an Atheist because I read the Bible, and I don't want to take part in worshipping someone who slaughtered millions of men, women, and children.

 

I can't accept everything someone shoves down my throat. That's why I can't be Christian. I can in no way sit through a church service and believe everything the preacher spouts.

 

If you want to just blindly accept everything you hear, and keep yourself sheltered from everybody else on Earth because they might make you think differently, then go ahead. But do NOT expect everybody else to do the same thing. We're not stupid, and we can think for ourselves. So no more demons. No more Satanists. No more meditation being evil. Just shut up about the whole deal, because if I wanted to hear rants about being holy, then I would open the door when the Jehova's Witnesses come by.

 

Amen to that

 

to bad the guy just wont listen to what we say..

 

Proverbs 20:3

Avoiding a fight is a mark of honor; only fools insist on quarreling

 

2 Timothy 2:23

Again I say, don't get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights.

 

erm, why is it that you still post then?

Edited September 11, 2005 by Spruit

[Ciara]

...the only thing I took away from Christianity was "if you don't believe everything we tell you, you'll burn in hell."... I don't want to take part in worshipping someone who slaughtered millions of men, women, and children... I can't accept everything someone shoves down my throat...

195460[/snapback]

Good points. Exact same reasons that I gave up on mainstream Christianity. (The whole post was good, but I edited it for brevity).

Edited September 11, 2005 by Ciara

[Arnieman]

I'm sick of watching Christians get into arguments with everybody else, because when someone says something that offends them or hurts their feelings, they skip bothering to come up with something remotely original and jump into spewing quotes from a book that they base their lives on. If I based my life on The Anarchists' Cookbook, then how do you think I would turn out?

195168[/snapback]

First off, would that be truly based off the Anarchists' Cookbook, or someone's "interpretation" of it for you?

 

Second, I know the Bible can sometimes seem like "just a book of quotes and good stories written by men." However, Christians often refer to it as "God's Word" (as it claims to be (and I believe it to be)). In that light, let's say you wanted to know about what somebody thought on a particular topic. Wouldn't the best place to find out be to either ask them personally, or read what they wrote?

bombs and satan..

 

Jesus said: love everyone no matter what..

so you cant get mad right?

195175[/snapback]

First: Satan was an angel who rebelled - God's fault? Bombs were created by people, who have the free will to pursue their desires... Again, God is to blame because free-willed people choose to kill?

 

To express disapproval at a statement or an action is not the same as to hate the person speaking/acting. Not once have I said anything about hating anyone - I try not to, personally.

Arnieman- thank you for your hard/kind words  i was getting so frustrated (mad/angry) at kala for turning everything i said around that i may have missed the real point most of the time and seemed like a male donkey (ain't going to say the cuss word for it    )    

195237[/snapback]

I said only what I felt needed said.

As for the ones who never heard of Christianity... How could a loving God punish people for not believing in something that they had never even heard of? God would torment them forever just because someone was too lazy to go and tell them about Christianity?

195254[/snapback]

For much of what you said, I do agree - although, I'm go for more of a literal translation of the Bible - it's not THAT hard, if people understand that while Greek (or Hebrew or Aramaic) may have 50 words that translate to the same way, each one tends to express a certain "aspect" of the word. Also, in some places, knowing the context makes sense too.

 

Those who never hear - I don't know, really. I think this might say something:

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

This being true, I cannot see how those that truly haven't been given a chance could be accountable, but then again, I know also the argument for nature testifying. So, honestly, I don't know one way or the other. As for the Great Commission, in that case, someone would likely be led by the Holy Spirit to go and tell, but again, this relies on free will of that Christian to go in the first place.

 

EDIT - Typo

Edited September 11, 2005 by Arnieman

[Ciara]

First of all, thanks for stating your opinion in a logical way and not acting like a brick wall. ^_^ (unlike *cough* some other people here) And it's great to see someone who isn't afraid to say "I honestly don't know". Far too many people claim to know, without a shadow of a doubt, everything about everything.

For much of what you said, I do agree - although, I'm go for more of a literal translation of the Bible - it's not THAT hard, if people understand that while Greek (or Hebrew or Aramaic) may have 50 words that translate to the same way, each one tends to express a certain "aspect" of the word.  Also, in some places, knowing the context makes sense too.

195473[/snapback]

You're right, in general it isn't extremely hard to translate Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic, but from my understanding (I am by no means an expert) the translators come across words once in a long while which are very obscure and they can only make educated guesses on. Still, it's not common, and you can get the general meaning out of the verses (context, as you said). It just bugs me sometimes when they aren't 100% certain of the translation but do not admit it. But yes, I could be wrong about that. Just what I've noticed from time to time. I agree about the more literal translations being better, I never did like the ones that paraphrase everything to an extreme degree.

Those who never hear - I don't know, really.  I think this might say something:

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

This being true, I cannot see how those that truly haven't been given a chance could be accountable, but then again, I know also the argument for nature testifying. So, honestly, I don't know one way or the other. As for the Great Commission, in that case, someone would likely be led by the Holy Spirit to go and tell, but again, this relies on free will of that Christian to go in the first place.

195473[/snapback]

The thing I find odd about the "Nature testifying" argument is, even though Nature may lead someone to believe in God's existance, it still doesn't show exactly how to "believe in Jesus and be saved" (at least not that I know of ), in the way most conservative Christians say you must. As I said I find it really hard to believe that God would send so many to people to hell in the first place... but if s/he does, I think that s/he wouldn't hold people who never heard accountable, just like s/he wouldn't hold young children who didn't know better accountable, either.

[Kami]

Yoah. That's a lot to read. that'll teach me not to wait a day to respond. I guess I can't respond to everything I'd like to so I'll just respond to the more important details.

 

from what i understand from what you wrote you where once a christian but chose to go a different way (free thinker even tho it was wrong)

 

Wrong, huh? <_< You condem me as wrong, not because you truely know me but just because I disagree with you? .......... Again, I'll only let God tell me if I'm right or wrong. Not you.

 

and i know quite a few people who meditate I.E. my ex-ninjitsu instructor

and every person that meditats has a so called spirit guide they may not always call themselves but in all reality they are demons.. and some of the people i knew that did not have a spirit guide when i first talked to them. they have one now.. because they weasel thier way into you and you can't resist or fight them. not unless you have the armor of god but only christians have that.

my ex-martial arts teacher once sent them after me to spy on me but god let me see them with my eyes and i was no closer then 5 feet from one and it's eyes where like black baseballs.. and i said "i trust you jesus" and that "spirit guide" ran away..

 

You're kind of Sounding a Little Paranoid there dude. Prrof, if anything is, Fear dictates your reasoning.

 

If your Instructor is really trying to "Seduce you to the DarkSide" then I reckon that you've mearly made a Bad choice in Instructors, not that the Art of Meditation is inharently Evil. I suggest that you stop and Learn a little more about Meditation first before condemming it because of 1 bad experince you had.

 

I can tell you, I've never used a "Spirit Guide" in any form to Meditate but I am fully aware of the Practice. It is not a "Evil" concept as a general order though it is not without those Practicitioners that do use Spirits in Meditation to advance into areas on the Spiritual Plane not meant for Man. But the same can be said for Television Producers!

 

you call jesus and i quote "a great Philosopher as well as a Humanitarian and an overall great guy" end quote.

 

that is the same thing satan calls him

 

Of all that I do know, that is correct. Jesus was all that and more. Just because Satan agrees with me, doesn't make it any less true. Unless, you're somehow comparing me to Satan.......... Which all I can say is that you need help.

 

but i call Jesus the Christ, the son of god, my Lord and Savior who came and died for the sins of mankind but who most of mankind will reject..

 

Funny. Hitler once said the same thing.

 

on a side note what denomination where your parents... because from what you said i think they were just trying to protect you from the bad stuff that is in this world..

 

Oddly enough, Common Christians. Our old church was a "Melting Pot" of sorts for different Factions (anything except Cathlics, of course :shame: ) Also, I'm Sure that that was what they thought they were doing but the problem there is that is impossible (unless your in a Cult in which you spend your life in a Remote little Village out in the Woods and have to commit Ritual Suicide on your 30th brithday).

 

This world is full of both very Beautiful as well as Horrible things. To completely protect your self from one, you can not experince the other. You can not have both Wisdom and Innocence. And Letting an Innocent growth up into this world without an Full understanding of it is the worst thing you can ever do to your children.

 

btw, after family reunion i was driving home and fell asleep at the wheel and i woke up completly about 30 minutes which is 20 miles later and i was about 1.5 miles from my parents house and i was asleep at the wheel but i got home with out a singel wreck and i woke up for 1 second every 5 minutes or so on that 30 minutes and from what i seen i obeyed all traffic laws and never hit a car in front of me or anything.. and i know that it was by god's grace that i got home safely and did not have a car wreck I.E. hit a car, drive into a ditch ect

it was like god had his hand on the steering wheel and on the gas and brake pedals and just guiding me home safely..

 

Perhaps you just dreamed you did.

Or maybe you Slept-Drove. It happens. A Lot of people have been known to fall asleep while driving. Some of them have even suvived. But not all of them contribute it to the work of God. Many weren't even Christians.

 

Hell, I've personally been known to Sleep walk and found my way into some very weird places, Places that you couldn't normally make you way to without a concious effort. Being sleep doesn't mean Braindead.

 

But, you're free to believe what you wish.

 

i was also raised in a christian home but my parents were not a strict as yours..

i kind of wish they were because if they were and i would have listened to them it would have saved me alot of hurt and heart ache

 

Forgive him God for he knows not what he says....

 

You don't know the Pain and Heartache that some of us have known. Be thankful!

 

qoute "But, If I do reach a different Truth then you and through all of My Knowledge and My Wisdom I deem it to be The Truth, Well then, I guess only time will tell which of us is correct. Either Way, I will continue on my chosen Path and, so Long as I never betray myself or Loss my way" end quote

 

that sounds just like what some of my muslims friends say... exspecially the part about only time will tell which one of us is correct..

the truth is once you die you will spend eternity in heaven or hell there is no middle ground and no changing your mind after you die. god gives you plenty of time on this earth to make a decision whether it is a good decision or bad. even if you die tomorow you would have still had time while you where alive to make a decision..

 

the choice is yours ...chose wisely

 

My way is my Way. There is no other way for me. No other person (Whether Living, Dead, or Divine) could tell me to Live my life any way contrary to My Way. If I was to follow another Way, then what would I have really gained? Nothing! I don't what to make it to Heaven on somebody else's Ticket! And only God or I will determined if my Way is the right way. Not My Parents. Not some preconceived Doctrine. And Expecially Not You!

 

i all i ask is that you read the bible and read it in context and don't just read 1 verse/chapter and throw it away but read it and give it a chance just like you do your meditation then in a month or so tell me what you think..

btw read: hebrews6: 4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

194962[/snapback]

 

Been there. Done that. Haven't you been reading what I've been posting?

 

 

And then there's:

christians have seen both satan's and god's side and have chosen god. while most people who see satan's and god's side chose satan.

christians have at least given god a chance and have not been sorry.

 

This is also any point that I was trying to make. Not ever person who calls themself a Christian has had that choice. As I said, in my strict upbringing, I never had that choice because the choice was made for me.

 

So many people in this world never truly have a choice because everything they know is just what they've been told. You say you've seen both sides, right? Well, have you seen Both sides From both sides? Have you ever sat down and Asked Satan His Side of the story or did you just except what other's told you? Have you ever actually Listened to what other's had to say about their Religion before Passing Judgement on them? Ever sit down and read a book of Philosphy that was not written by Christians?

 

Also, how do you know there's only two sides anyway? Everybody know's of the Struggle of Good Vs. Evil in this world but do any of us really know all the Names and Faces of the Player's in this game? And then there's the Innocences that always get cought in the middle and who get hit the hardest, just like every war.

 

The problem is, too many people make too many decisions without knowing all of the facts and everybody has Bias. Bias of others, Bias of Ideas, Bias of ourselves. And it's this Bias that's most often preached through Religion and not actually the true words of God.

 

And Lies, Lies, Lies! What are "Lies" other then Truthes that we Let other people convince us instead of determining it for ourselves. Kala wasn't telling you any Lies. She was slightly Venomous in her telling of the realities of Religion but what she said, for the most part, was true. Don't believe me? Look it up yourself.

 

You have shown us all an example of the worst product that Blind Faith can produce. You Believe for the sake of Belief and you refuse to do any of the Searching for truth for yourself. Trust and Faith are wonderful and beautiful Tools in our daily lives but Blind Faith and Unquestioning Trust is how people can be led to be content in our Ignorance!

 

The Path to Find Truth is just as important as Following Truth, if not more so! When we're content to no longer search for truth, we are doomed to believe any Lie we're given.

 

Arnieman,

Second, I know the Bible can sometimes seem like "just a book of quotes and good stories written by men." However, Christians often refer to it as "God's Word" (as it claims to be (and I believe it to be)). In that light, let's say you wanted to know about what somebody thought on a particular topic. Wouldn't the best place to find out be to either ask them personally, or read what they wrote?

 

I can understand your reasoning if only we Could ask them directly or were really sure that we were reading what they wrote. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible is paramount to Hearsay. It's so much like reading This person says that this person said that, yet was written by this other person then translated by yet other person some 1000 years latter. And once you do read it, how sure can one be that what you read is really word for word the same? Then, try listening to someone else recite from that Hearsay. Have you ever heard a Rumor that has passed through a whole group of people before getting to you? By the time it does reach you, it's nothing like what it was when it was first started.

 

I just can't trust anything I'm told. I will never trust anything I'm told (or that I read) unless I can determine for myself whether it to be true or not. And That, Jrritter, is wanting to know Truth! Searching for your answers yourself and not just being told what you want to hear.

 

 

EDIT

P.S. My Grammor Sucks.

And what is up with these Quotes?

Edited September 11, 2005 by Kami

[Kala]

Perfectly stated, Kami.

[Ciara]

Yes, very well written indeed, Kami. You said what I was trying to say but couldn't because of my horrible way with words. *feels inferior* -_-

 

I can understand your reasoning if only we Could ask them directly or were really sure that we were reading what they wrote. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible is paramount to Hearsay. It's so much like reading This person says that this person said that, yet was written by this other person then translated by yet other person some 1000 years latter. And once you do read it, how sure can one be that what you read is really word for word the same? Then, try listening to someone else recite from that Hearsay. Have you ever heard a Rumor that has passed through a whole group of people before getting to you? By the time it does reach you, it's nothing like what it was when it was first started.

 

That is pretty much what I was trying to say about the Bible.

 

EDIT:

 

And jrritter, please consider LISTENING to what Kami said, s/he is very wise, and it's a shame if s/he wrote all of that to a BRICK WALL who seems to ignore everything people say and spout Bible verses at them instead. If all you can do to back up your beliefs is to spew quotes, maybe you should think your beliefs over a bit more, so you can be capable of presenting logical arguments in a debate.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Ciara

[Arnieman]

I can understand your reasoning if only we Could ask them directly or were really sure that we were reading what they wrote. As far as I'm concerned, the Bible is paramount to Hearsay. It's so much like reading This person says that this person said that, yet was written by this other person then translated by yet other person some 1000 years latter. And once you do read it, how sure can one be that what you read is really word for word the same? Then, try listening to someone else recite from that Hearsay. Have you ever heard a Rumor that has passed through a whole group of people before getting to you? By the time it does reach you, it's nothing like what it was when it was first started.

195563[/snapback]

That "rumor passed around" would hold more truth if most of the time, people didn't try to translate from as close to the originals as they can get. Also, for translations - there's been some nice reason NOT to screw with the translations - KJV's original translators would have been executed for it - and the British have some of the most gruesome execution methods that have been employed in their history. As for modern translators, a bad translation is just bad business.

I just can't trust anything I'm told. I will never trust anything I'm told (or that I read) unless I can determine for myself whether it to be true or not. And That, Jrritter, is wanting to know Truth! Searching for your answers yourself and not just being told what you want to hear.

195563[/snapback]

I personally would like to just be able to tell you whatever you would need to hear, to trust. I know I can't - I am that way myself. In the end (and the beginning - when I "got saved"), what it took to convince me of the truth that I know was someone who convinced me to just trust what I already knew - I'd known the Bible, but never really trusted it until a little over 7 years ago.

 

When it comes down to it, whatever you believe in must be personal to you.

[Ciara]

I'm just gonna pick some stuff out of this post to comment on because it's worded so damn good.

and i know quite a few people who meditate I.E. my ex-ninjitsu instructor

and every person that meditats has a so called spirit guide they may not always call themselves but in all reality they are demons.. and some of the people i knew that did not have a spirit guide when i first talked to them. they have one now.. because they weasel thier way into you and you can't resist or fight them. not unless you have the armor of god but only christians have that.

my ex-martial arts teacher once sent them after me to spy on me but god let me see them with my eyes and i was no closer then 5 feet from one and it's eyes where like black baseballs.. and i said "i trust you jesus" and that "spirit guide" ran away..

 

You're kind of Sounding a Little Paranoid there dude. Prrof, if anything is, Fear dictates your reasoning.

 

If your Instructor is really trying to "Seduce you to the DarkSide" then I reckon that you've mearly made a Bad choice in Instructors, not that the Art of Meditation is inharently Evil. I suggest that you stop and Learn a little more about Meditation first before condemming it because of 1 bad experince you had.

Yes, it's very foolish to completely dismiss "without a shadow of a doubt" a certain practice over one bad experience, especially since it doesn't seem like you have researched meditation much. Somehow it sounds a little ridiculous to me that he "sent them after you to spy on you" in the first place, but even if he DID, and WAS trying to "seduce you to the dark side" as Kami said, how does that make all meditation bad? I'm actually not even getting the connection between "meditation" and "ebul martialarts teacher".

 

i was also raised in a christian home but my parents were not a strict as yours..

i kind of wish they were because if they were and i would have listened to them it would have saved me alot of hurt and heart ache

 

Forgive him God for he knows not what he says....

 

You don't know the Pain and Heartache that some of us have known. Be thankful!

Yeah, it is no fun to be in an extremely strict conservative family whom you need to hide everything you do and think from. And I know that others have it MUCH worse than I do! Also, I think that you would be less likely to share the beliefs of your parents if they were extremely conservative and extremist.

My way is my Way. There is no other way for me. No other person (Whether Living, Dead, or Divine) could tell me to Live my life any way contrary to My Way. If I was to follow another Way, then what would I have really gained? Nothing! I don't what to make it to Heaven on somebody else's Ticket! And only God or I will determined if my Way is the right way. Not My Parents. Not some preconceived Doctrine. And Expecially Not You!

 

And then there's:

christians have seen both satan's and god's side and have chosen god. while most people who see satan's and god's side chose satan.

christians have at least given god a chance and have not been sorry.

 

This is also any point that I was trying to make. Not ever person who calls themself a Christian has had that choice. As I said, in my strict upbringing, I never had that choice because the choice was made for me.

 

So many people in this world never truly have a choice because everything they know is just what they've been told. You say you've seen both sides, right? Well, have you seen Both sides From both sides? Have you ever sat down and Asked Satan His Side of the story or did you just except what other's told you? Have you ever actually Listened to what other's had to say about their Religion before Passing Judgement on them? Ever sit down and read a book of Philosphy that was not written by Christians?

 

Also, how do you know there's only two sides anyway? Everybody know's of the Struggle of Good Vs. Evil in this world but do any of us really know all the Names and Faces of the Player's in this game? And then there's the Innocences that always get cought in the middle and who get hit the hardest, just like every war.

 

The problem is, too many people make too many decisions without knowing all of the facts and everybody has Bias. Bias of others, Bias of Ideas, Bias of ourselves. And it's this Bias that's most often preached through Religion and not actually the true words of God.

 

And Lies, Lies, Lies! What are "Lies" other then Truthes that we Let other people convince us instead of determining it for ourselves. Kala wasn't telling you any Lies. She was slightly Venomous in her telling of the realities of Religion but what she said, for the most part, was true. Don't believe me? Look it up yourself.

 

You have shown us all an example of the worst product that Blind Faith can produce. You Believe for the sake of Belief and you refuse to do any of the Searching for truth for yourself. Trust and Faith are wonderful and beautiful Tools in our daily lives but Blind Faith and Unquestioning Trust is how people can be led to be content in our Ignorance!

 

The Path to Find Truth is just as important as Following Truth, if not more so! When we're content to no longer search for truth, we are doomed to believe any Lie we're given.

AMEN. Perfect wording. Why can I never get my point across like that?

 

Badly worded addition so I'm not just quoting and adding NOTHING to the convo: Faith is not true faith at all if you have simply believed what was forced down your throat without EVER actually thinking it over for yourself.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Ciara

[Kami]

Perfectly stated, Kami.

195568[/snapback]

Yes, very well written indeed, Kami. You said what I was trying to say but couldn't because of my horrible way with words. *feels inferior* -_-

That is pretty much what I was trying to say about the Bible.

195569[/snapback]

 

Thank ye both. It's funny but I didn't think that was my best compose. Aeh, I guess it's true what they say; A Writer never Likes they're own work.

 

But I liked your posts own posts Ciara very much. You wrote very well. You may not feel that you made you point very cleary but I feel we all got your meaning and enjoyed your contribution. Your wording was very Clear and Clean with no mistakes (unlike myself) and you managed to post as much as you did with great Restrant and Kindness where I can often get quite Rude and Sarcastic when I write.

 

That "rumor passed around" would hold more truth if most of the time, people didn't try to translate from as close to the originals as they can get.  Also, for translations - there's been some nice reason NOT to screw with the translations - KJV's original translators would have been executed for it - and the British have some of the most gruesome execution methods that have been employed in their history.  As for modern translators, a bad translation is just bad business.

195572[/snapback]

 

Not entirely true, Arnieman. While it's true that there are those who take their work Very seriously, they are not completely without failings. And Since when has Governents and Head's of Religions ever been completely Free from Political Bias and Personal Agendas? Can you say with absolute certainy that those who've done every translation have been completely free from Political Influance? Of course not. You've just admitted that they were greatly influanced. Can you be absolutely positive that those Political and Religion Powers did not have their own Agendas? When have you ever know one Not to? King James may of had the best of intentions in commissioning the Translation of the Bible into English but he was not a Perfect Saint himself! Everybody has Faults and everybody has personal Agendas while those in Power have the Luxsury of making their's come true.

 

I personally would like to just be able to tell you whatever you would need to hear, to trust.  I know I can't - I am that way myself.  In the end (and the beginning - when I "got saved"), what it took to convince me of the truth that I know was someone who convinced me to just trust what I already knew - I'd known the Bible, but never really trusted it until a little over 7 years ago.

 

When it comes down to it, whatever you believe in must be personal to you.

 

Quite true. This has been my point all along. My beliefs are very personal to me as I have been to many places and I have learned much and though my Searching I feel that I have found the best way for ME and Who is anybody else to critize me for my choices when they have not walked in my shoes and have not even tried to understand from where I'm coming from.

 

And, although you may have gotten the wrong picture, Trust and Faith are very important to me. To me, Trust comes from Knowing. Without knowing, and I mean knowing Everything, how can one truly Trust anything which you're told? And Faith without Trust is just Not Caring about Truth! One can not Trust that something is true through Blind Faith. So, My Trust will come from me Knowing. Knowing comes from me searching for Truth. Only when I know the Truth will I have Faith in that Truth in which to put my Trust!

[Ruthgar]

"I'd certainly like to know the truth. However, from twelve years of church on Sunday, Sunday school, Wednesday services, and even being Baptised, the only thing I took away from Christianity was "if you don't believe everything we tell you, you'll burn in hell." "

 

They lied to you. I am sorry. It is way simpler than that.

 

 

 

"I'm an Atheist because I read the Bible, and I don't want to take part in worshipping someone who slaughtered millions of men, women, and children."

 

I am confused, if there is no God how did he slaughter millions?

Are you an Atheist? That would be amazing, I really want to talk to one but I have never met one who really was.

 

 

 

"I can't accept everything someone shoves down my throat."

 

I am glad it is not good to lack discernment.

 

 

 

"I can in no way sit through a church service and believe everything the preacher spouts. "

 

Who said you had to do this? I don't, especially when they are in error. I speak up.

 

 

 

"If you want to just blindly accept everything you hear, and keep yourself sheltered from everybody else on Earth because they might make you think differently, then go ahead."

 

What a miserable life. I am glad to be in the world. Whew.

 

 

"We're not stupid, and we can think for ourselves. "

 

Thank God.

 

 

 

Edit: Now that tempers have cooled some lets talk.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Ruthgar

[Ciara]

Thank ye both. It's funny but I didn't think that was my best compose. Aeh, I guess it's true what they say; A Writer never Likes they're own work.

 

But I liked your posts own posts Ciara very much. You wrote very well. You may not feel that you made you point very cleary but I feel we all got your meaning and enjoyed your contribution. Your wording was very Clear and Clean with no mistakes (unlike myself) and you managed to post as much as you did with great Restrant and Kindness where I can often get quite Rude and Sarcastic when I write.

195578[/snapback]

 

Heh, it is true that no one likes their own writing, but thanks very much for your compliments even though I can't see how you can possibly say that I "made my point clearly", much less that you "enjoyed reading it" lol.

 

And I'm certainly not all that wonderful at showing "great restraint and kindness" myself! I accused jrritter of acting like "a brick wall", after all.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Ciara

[dragburn]

man everyone seems to be thinking translation, translation, translation... has anyone else thought about the source? i guess i mean what was constantine's agenda? how many scriptures never made it to the final compilation because they didnt fit a certain agenda? when will people stop believing that the bible came in a fax from god?(mere jest at generalization)

[rasberrybeard]

Christ ownz j00.

[Kami]

Heh, it is true that no one likes their own writing, but thanks very much for your compliments even though I can't see how you can possibly say that I "made my point clearly", much less that you "enjoyed reading it" lol.

195589[/snapback]

 

Well, "Clearly enough." We got the general idea and it gave us more to think about.

 

And I'm certainly not all that wonderful at showing "great restraint and kindness" myself! I accused jrritter of acting like "a brick wall", after all.

195589[/snapback]

 

Well, your first post was Civil and I'm not one to believe that telling someone the truth about themselves constitutes being overly unkind. If fact, sometimes the kindest thing we can ever do is Shock someone enough to rethink an idea. That's my theory anyway.

 

man everyone seems to be thinking translation, translation, translation... has anyone else thought about the source? i guess i mean what was constantine's agenda? how many scriptures never made it to the final compilation because they didnt fit a certain agenda? when will people stop believing that the bible came in a fax from god?(mere jest at generalization)

195591[/snapback]

 

That's very true. Don't even get me started on Constantine Many revisions when he got his hands on it. Everything from Homosexuality to Witchcraft to The Concept of Women.

 

Although, it's only right to mention much of the common revisions were actually the work of his Wife, Who, by the way, was once rumored to practice Black Magic herself. But what did I say earlier about Rumors?

[Kendai]

I would like to add another thing to this topic: it is commonly believed by Christians that the Bible is divinely inspired by God. Christians know that the Bible was written by men, who are falliable and may have agendas of their own. Why do you think there are four different gospels, each emphasizing different points and aimed towards different audiences? However, they were deeply inspired by God, which is why these gospels were written down in the first place.

 

In contrast, Muslims believe that the Koran was directly given to them by Allah, and therefore it would be a sin to translate the Koran, since it would in effect change the Word of Allah.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled debates

[jrritter31984]

just to let you know i will be quiting el in a day or so.

not because of this post but because of my emt classes.

 

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17836

 

and in that link i have asked a mod/dev/admin to cancel my posting rights because i won't be coming to the forums since my internet will be disconnected.

 

btw.. i have read everything everyone has posted on this topic.

and i will say a few things first... everything i wrote is what happened to me 100% in RL

and i am tired of the flames i have been getting for telling the truth... and some of you may think i am quiting because of your posts... which is not true.. i have been thinking of quiting for over 1 month now..

 

and jesus is the truth.

i don't pretend to know everything.. in fact i will admit it i don't know everything

but i know what i experianced and what i read in the bible and in other books.

 

http://www.ypsforum.org/viewtopic.php?p=20...40b41580fb1ed01

 

try that link it has some verses in the bible that talk about the world and we (scientist) are only discovering most of that in the last Few Decades..

 

 

this is my final post on forums and any flame will not be answered and i will post what that site says at the very bottom of this post just in case it don't work..

 

*note- in one of my last few posts in this topic i said that that post will be One of my final posts

 

i believe that only thru jesus will anyone get to heaven and that man is sinful and that god does not send people to hell but that our sins if we don't repent will send us to hell. and i believe that jesus came to earth and was fully god and fully man (that is hard for some people to comprehind) and that he was sinless and died on the cross a brutal death and rose from the dead on the 3rd day and 40 days later went up to heaven and is seated on the right hand of god and will come again in the Very near future and call his people (christians) to him to be with him forever.

and that no matter what religion you Claim you will go to hell Unless

you repent of your sins and turn to jesus and have faith in him.

 

and i ask that you read this web page.. tho some of you (readers) may not it talkes about some of the stuff of Constantine..

 

2 timothy 3:16

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

 

and if it ain't in the bible that we have today that is the same as the orginals (but translated) then it ain't from the bible

 

Proverbs 28:26

He who trusts in himself is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom is kept safe.

 

every where in the bible God is called HOLY HOLY HOLY... now if he is holy then he can't have sin in his presence. and if he can't have sin in his presence it must go somewhere and that place is hell ... thou hell was not made for man but for satan and his demons but because of man's sin man/woman will go there unless they get saved.. because his judgements are holy and we (everyone in the world) deserve them all and more because of our sin against a holy rightous god. like in the usa look at our sin (gay, woman/men who sell themselves for money, lieing, stealing, ect which the bible says is a sin) i heard it said for years... if god does not punish us (usa, i am a american so by us i mean america) then he would have to apologize to sodom and gahmorrah but what is happening now is that god is judging us (which we deserve) thou it may not be like sodom and gahmorrah he will still punish us btw sodom and gahmorrah where wealthy when they got destroyed and the usa is wealth and most americans worship money as a god that is why the spend thier lives trying to get more and more... and sodom and gahmorrah commited

read jude 1:15-19 if you don't have a bible go to http://www.biblegateway.com/ and type in the chapter and verse. jude 1:6-11 talk about sodom and gomorrah and thier sexual immorality (aka: gay, prostitues, and every other sexual sin) and god destroyed them..

some people question god and why he does things but does a pot question the potter?

 

No so why should you the pot question god the potter.

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4306apol_v3n21994.asp

 

Ephesians 2: 8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

may god bless you and keep you always

 

bye god bless

 

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

this post from the web site is in it's orginal writting (typo's and all) i have only done a quick Copy and Paste job.

.

.

 

 

did u kno that science actually confirms the bible!

in the olden days many ppl believed things deferinately about the earth, than 2 wot the bible says:

 

[/i]The earth is a sphere! isiaih 40: 22 ppl in biblical times 4ort that the Earth was flat, untill someone sailed round the earth!

 

Free float of earth in space Job 26:7 ppl in biblical times beleived that earth sat on a large animal!

 

Ocean floor contains deep valleys + mountains 2 samuel 22: 16 + Jonah 2:6 ppl in biblical times elieved that the earth was flat!

 

Creation made of invisible elements (atoms) Heb 11:3 ppl in biblical times believed science was ingnorant on the subject!

 

Incalculable number of stars Jer 33:22 ppl in biblical times believed there were olny 1,100 stars!

 

who knows, mayb in the future science mite prove the bible right in the creation story!

 

if u want to see more of these facts visit www.evidencebible.com

 

 

i agree with u that the bible explains some scientific truths, it even mentions dinosaurs in Job 40v15-24 the behemoth "one of the first of God's works" and the leviathon in 41v1-10!

Edited September 12, 2005 by jrritter31984

[Ciara]

Don't even get me started on Constantine Many revisions when he got his hands on it. Everything from Homosexuality to Witchcraft to The Concept of Women.

195596[/snapback]

Indeed... this is a whole 'nother can of worms but it bugs me how much the verses on homosexuality... and the concept of women... and witchcraft, too, for that matter, were/are misinterpereted, mistranslated, blatantly changed. <_< Even if they weren't outright changed and mistranslated (again, why do the translators claim to know stuff 100% sure, when they don't?), people still interperet them wrong IMO, ripping stuff totally out of cultural AND literary context never works.

 

man everyone seems to be thinking translation, translation, translation... has anyone else thought about the source? i guess i mean what was constantine's agenda? how many scriptures never made it to the final compilation because they didnt fit a certain agenda? when will people stop believing that the bible came in a fax from god?(mere jest at generalization)

195591[/snapback]

Yeah, no one seems to realise that it DID NOT come in a fax from God. They don't realise that it was changed along the way, not to MENTION, as you said, they basically just sat down one day and decided what should be scripture and what shouldn't be. And of course Constantine was biased and had a political agenda... So here you have almost all the groups people (writers, compilers, translators, and of course, we who read it) who were involved in giving us what we now know as "the Bible" with their own agenda. Completely inerrant? How? I believe that it contains much truth, but how can it be without any error whatsover?

 

Sorry if I'm starting to sound flamey...

[Ciara]

I know you're probably not going to read this, much less reply. Not that you ever really replied, and answered our questions.

But I just can't let this go without replying. I can't.

 

btw.. i have read everything everyone has posted on this topic.

and i will say a few things first... everything i wrote is what happened to me 100% in RL

and i am tired of the flames i have been getting for telling the truth...  and some of you may think i am quiting because of your posts... which is not true.. i have been thinking of quiting for over 1 month now..

Sorry, lol... but a few hours ago I thought to myself "He will probably leave EL over the flamey topic! Meh, I'm not going to say "I'm sure you THINK those things happened, but maybe they didn't" because I just realised again how much I hate it when people accuse me of "decieving myself" and say "how can you listen to what you think God tells you, it could be Satan, you can ONLY COUNT ON THE BIBLE!" So okay. I won't condemn you over similar things.

 

and jesus is the truth.

i don't pretend to know everything.. in fact i will admit it i don't know everything

but i know what i experianced and what i read in the bible and in other books.

 

link

 

try that link it has some verses in the bible that talk about the world and we (scientist) are only discovering most of that in the last Few Decades..

Can't you debate something in your own words, without throwing a bunch of links and quotes at us? Also, as Kala said, you CANNOT use something as "proof" of ITSELF!

 

i believe that only thru jesus will anyone get to heaven and that man is sinful and that god does not send people to hell but that our sins if we don't repent will send us to hell.

Infinite punishment for finite sins? Why does God need to take her/his anger out on people, can't s/he just Forgive? And why did God need to take her/his anger out on Jesus in order to Forgive people? We are nowhere as near as Loving and Forgiving as the God which I believe in is (no. I don't believe in the old testament god who destroyed so many innocent people), and yet we can forgive and forget, without having to punish anyone. And yes, I would really like to hear a logical answer on this. I don't recall anyone explaining it to me, not my parents either. (EDIT: Though I DO tend to lean towards believing that Jesus died for sins. I just don't believe that God will torment people forever for not accepting that sacrifice.)

 

and i believe that jesus came to earth and was fully god and fully man (that is hard for some people to comprehind)

How can Jesus be FULLY God and FULLY man, of the "same mind", if he prayed to God? And God forsook him at one point? I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't sent by God, or he wasn't "God's son" or something of the sort... but how can they be FULLY one and the same? I'd also prefer not to hear "but god works in mysterious ways!" either.

 

may god bless you and keep you always

Thanks, may God bless you too. I don't hate you or anything although I disagree with most of what you believe and I find it frustrating to talk to you.

 

this post from the web site is in it's orginal writting (typo's and all) i have only done a quick Copy and Paste job.

<snip>

 

Again, I wish you wouldn't quote other sources constantly. I'm not going to go around arguing the stuff on that site, but just as a quick, half-irrelevant comment: I have heard of extremists who think the earth is flat because the Bible, in other places, implies that it is. And so on.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Ciara

[Arnieman]

man everyone seems to be thinking translation, translation, translation... has anyone else thought about the source? i guess i mean what was constantine's agenda? how many scriptures never made it to the final compilation because they didnt fit a certain agenda? when will people stop believing that the bible came in a fax from god?(mere jest at generalization)

195591[/snapback]

actually, yes, I'd thought about the source - want to explain to me how Constantine corrupted the copies (and in a few cases (I think, not sure), originals) that date back to the first century, some not 5-10 years after the death of Christ? Also, if he had anything of typical Roman agenda in mind, where's the parts telling Christians to hate Jews? (btw, those parts do NOT exist.)

 

Actually, it is one of my ambitions - one day, if I ever learn the old languages of the Bible (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek), I'd like to take a look at the old texts myself. It may never happen, but one can dream.

I'm an Atheist because I read the Bible, and I don't want to take part in worshipping someone who slaughtered millions of men, women, and children.

195460[/snapback]

Just as a thought - did you ever stop to consider why those people were "slaughtered"? A common practice in those days to many of the gods (Baal, Ashtoreth, Molech - not sure which practiced this ritual, but it was quite common) was to try and buy that god's favor by slaughtering men, women, and children? The god Molech even had people make their children "pass through the fire" (literally, burned alive). This wasn't the command of God - but I guess He should be blamed for it?

 

Ok, before I say more, can I ask who honestly is looking for discussion, and who is looking for the "bash the Christians" festival?

[Ciara]

Just as a thought - did you ever stop to consider why those people were "slaughtered"?  A common practice in those days to many of the gods (Baal, Ashtoreth, Molech - not sure which practiced this ritual, but it was quite common) was to try and buy that god's favor by slaughtering men, women, and children?  The god Molech even had people make their children "pass through the fire" (literally, burned alive).  This wasn't the command of God - but I guess He should be blamed for it?

195610[/snapback]

 

What about the things that WERE a command of God? The laws that ordered people to stone their slightly rebellious children, women who were raped but no one heard cry for help... on and on. Plus the general treatment of women as property, which has always bugged me. (Unlike Jesus, who spoke with and taught women even though the culture of his day said he shouldn't even do that much) The Old Testament laws are really quite... disturbing if you read them and think about them all. I know that you don't follow it today because "Jesus fufilled the law" (And he did. As I said) but why would God order such atrocities in the first place? BTW I am not claiming that only Christians did this kind of thing. As you said, other religions in that day also had barbaric rituals, people in closeminded cultures even TODAY stone people for adultery and so on... and yes, I am aware that not all people of those religions and cultures do that either (I hate generalisations and stereotypes). But... why didn't God try and put a stop to those terrible customs? Instead of making it much worse?

 

Ok, before I say more, can I ask who honestly is looking for discussion, and who is looking for the "bash the Christians" festival?

195610[/snapback]

 

I AM truly looking for discussion, not just a mindless bashing session And I don't want to come across as anti-Christian, anti-Bible, anti-God, because I'm not... I guess I come across too flamey... it's hard for me to explain myself properly. I do want to get a logical, well-thought-out answer to my questions to think about - and to help me understand you, and others - and I WILL consider your argument it if it makes sense and it's not just a bunch of quotes as jrritter kept bombarding us with.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Ciara

[Mister_Q]

Christ ownz j00.

 

...

 

hell no, it doesnt..

 

 

and i am tired of the flames i have been getting for telling the truth...

 

omfg.. you are so stupid!!

thats what you THINK and i repeat ------------>>>>THINK<<<<---------------

is the truth... i know you got a hard time listening cous you know that some of us are right and you just cant live with that..

 

and really.. quit the quoting crap.. >.<

Edited September 12, 2005 by Spruit

[Arnieman]

Ciara - that part about discussion or flames wasn't aimed at you, you've been quite "discussing" here.

 

There are some who appear to be turning this into a personal vendetta against Christians, and want a bashfest - I want no part of that, nor do I want to turn it into a bashfest the other way.

 

(In General) I do want to point out that, if you don't want to serve a god who has had atrocities committed by their followers in their name, God's off the table. So's Allah. I'm also fairly certain that you'd have to throw out all the Greco-Roman, Norse, Celtic, Hindu, and any from the Ancient Middle East. In fact, even Atheism is off the table in that case. I think the only one left, though, may be Agnosticism, but then it'd be stupid to kill in the name of a god/gods/no god that may/may not exist.

[gadai]

  I think the only one left, though, may be Agnosticism, but then it'd be stupid to kill in the name of a god/gods/no god that may/may not exist.

195641[/snapback]

 

I betcha there's some fanatic out there that would though Arnie Religion in, and of, itself is a great thing for many people, and more power to them, unfortunately as long as the 'fanatics' are out there that will always bashers of opposing/other beliefs. The only thing I'm passionately against is fanatics, irregardless or the subject of their fanaticism, but even then I'm not a fanatic about it

[Shouja]

(Why is it that every time someone posts a "What is your Religion?" thread on this forum, it eventually turns into a debate between Christianity and something else? Are the people involved here only exposed to those two options? But that's beside the point at the moment.)

 

It seems to me that the central issue to discuss, if you want to talk validity of Christianity, is not about the Bible, but about Christ. To be more specific, the following questions need to be asked and answered:

 

1) Did the person called Jesus Christ exist, and can his existence be proven through sources other than the Bible (since many may not believe that)?

 

2) Did the person called Jesus Christ claim to be the Divine Son of God?

 

3) Was he speaking the truth?

 

You see, if the answer to all three questions is "Yes", then the issue of the Bible's validity becomes moot. If Jesus really is the Son of God, then I would presume that anything He has to say would be of vital importance to us, and also that He would take means to preserve His Words such that the truth is still made known. If he isn't the Son of God, then it does not matter what the Bible says, because it is based on a false assumption (although, of course, it contains a lot of nice moral teachings).

 

I don't think many people would argue the fact that the answer to (1) and (2) are both "yes". It is the third question which is important.

 

Now, the possible answers to that question (that I can think of, at least) are:

A) Yes, He was speaking the truth, and He is the Son of God.

B) No, he was not speaking the truth, but deliberately lied to his followers. Therefore, he was a pretty bad example of a moral teacher.

C) No, he was just plain mad/insane/delusional.

 

The other option I can think of is that Jesus did not claim to be the Son of God, but his disciples later perverted his words to mean it that way. That's the argument that most Muslims would use, anyway, for the basis of why Allah had to re-instruct humanity through the Qu'ran (or Koran). However, one must then think about what possible reasons the disciples had to claim that the one they followed was the Son of God, and in fact, go out to preach it throughout a world known to be hostile to their message - suffering persecution, arrest, and death for a lie they made up.

 

That point, of course, is debatable, and I'd like to hear the reasons that other people can come up with for why they might have chosen to do that.

 

But back to the options (A), (B) and (C).

 

If (A) is correct, then as I said, what Jesus says is true and valid, and Christianity IS the right way to go. Whether people who claim to be Christians actually practice what they preach is a separate issue from the truth of the message.

 

If (B) is correct, then Jesus ranks alongside all the other great moral teachers of the world, such as Siddharta Gautama (also known as The Buddha), Mohammad, Confucius, Mencius, Plato, Socrates, and every major philosophical or religious leader in the history of the planet. (Unless, of course, one of those claims to be Divine and has the proof to back it up... in which case they're the correct one.) However, he is a liar and a cheat, therefore his moral teachings should not be trusted. Are his moral teachings flawed?

 

If (C) is correct, then the teachings of Jesus are fundamentally flawed, and should not be followed. (Just as you would not follow a madman who claims that he is a blue squirrel and wants you to collect the entire world's nut supply in order to ensure worship of him). Upon the reading of his words and his teachings, does Jesus seem to be mad to you?

 

 

That's all I have to contribute to the discussion for now.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Shouja