Negative Perk discussion

[Arnieman]

Brom - initially, I didn't like the idea - You'd need to be required level 58 to harvest Titanium (isn't the recommended a bit lower than that?

 

However, if it could be tweaked for each skill, it could work.

 

This also creates a problem where 2 nexii are used for a skill, or where two skills use the same nexus.

[GreenGanjaKing]

i am curious as to why people think negative perks need a PP reduction.....i mean antisocial is a farely costly negative perk and should reward as such...if you have it a main source of money is taken as ell as access to many items needed for other things (thread, pickaxes, death essence, vials, etc) and hellspawn makes it difficult to do manythings as well as being time consuming....the majority if you have them are farely costly...though i can agree to power hungry not being that bad but thats why it only gives a small amount of PP...

[shenriss]

I like this actually. For some reason no one commented on it yet. This would solve a lot of problems in EL.

1) New players doing things they should not be able to do yet

2) people boxing in plate armour with goblins and gargoyles

3) Better shows a persons level just by what they are wearing.

 

To name a few. It could use some tweaking. For example, according to this no one in the game currently could summon a fluffy rabbit and/or Chimera. So we may need to vary it for different nexsus's. It would allow more PP's which would decrease the need for negative perks. I like it. With some tweaking I would really love to see it implemented!

 

What do you think! It would make the high-level creation things rare again. Let me try and list some downsides.

1) Severe inflation of low-level eq

2) Player uproar at not being able to wear the things they just bought.

3) Summoning would become even more less popular

4) Many other games have a system like this.

 

Dispite the cons. I like it!

189618[/snapback]

 

 

It's a really good idea if it implemented for all nexus,

1) it may stop players be able make greaves at level 10 in manu

2) players with a/d like 5 to use plate mail and serp

3) it give a goal to train a skill

4) easier to do everything in EL

5) 19 nexus i needed stop take more cause imagine OA you need without neg perk (i didn't have any) for have corrct stats

 

for negative perks:

1) look some monster char who can't train but strong, i don't see the interest of it exept for kill everybody everytime I'm not sure this game was created for that

2) anti 10 pp, you can have leather and wine via quest other things via bots near all fighters take it and can do like they haven't got it, at worst friends can help them...

3) most of positive perks are to expensive to be nice to take if you are an all rounder exept artificier it was nice when i had it but to expensive and when you start (mm perk make you be able harvest emerald at low level, those time mm cape was 12-15k)

[Arnieman]

for negative perks:

2) anti 10 pp, you can have leather and wine via quest other things via bots near all fighters take it and can do like they haven't got it, at worst friends can help them...

189914[/snapback]

I don't have this perk, but... isn't it the point of an MMORPG to interact? So, people who take antisocial cannot buy certain items, but can get a friend to buy it. Why is this a problem?

Edited August 22, 2005 by Arnieman

[Placid]

Perks need to have less of an effect on a character (take P/C for example).

 

Remove all negative perks.

[shenriss]

I don't have this perk, but... isn't it the point of an MMORPG to interact?  So, people who take antisocial cannot buy certain items, but can get a friend to buy it.  Why is this a problem?

189962[/snapback]

 

what mean anti-social then? and 10 pp is a lot at high level, specialy like i saw they aren't any negative effect

[Kami]

This also creates a problem where 2 nexii are used for a skill, or where two skills use the same nexus.

189622[/snapback]

 

This is very true. Such as Fighting, this type of system may not be the best way to go, unless we "Merge" Attack and Defense and create an "Fighting Overall" Skill with Basic Attack and Defense as Sub-skills inwhich to based it by. I personally believe that there should be a completely different System entirely by which Players Level up in Fighting anyway. I mean, it shouldn't grow and be meassured in the same way as other Skills. Also, I also don't like a Player's abily to wear/wield Armor/Weapons according to their Nexus either. One's Nexus should rate a player's personally growth as a fighter and contributes to that player's ability to learn and use New Skills and Techniques. But that's a whole different topic.

 

But, of course, this depends greatly on whether or not the Devs are going to keep all of the Skills like they are anyway. I mean, Anything we discuss here and now may have vastly differing effects on any new upcoming Developments that may be in the works as we speak.

 

So, those who may like the Current Perk/PP System and wouldn't like to see it change Might as well Discuss with us possible alternatives, just in case the Devs do decide to take the Game in a whole new direction. And even if they don't, it's never a bad thing to have a Desent Pool of Ideas inwhich to Draw new ideas from.

[Sildegaar]

Thought n°1 : Indeed it is good to have lots of new ideas for what to do and what to avoid. Now IMO the perk system is good : it can help someone actually role-play.

Myself, I took godless and now I must do without those so usefull god quests : some say "this perk is free pickpoints", some say "think twice beofre taking that one" ... I say it's good, just make sure it makes sense for your role-play.

 

Thought n°2 : Now, regarding MM and Anti-social, let me say :

- If you think MM is for bagjumpers, then make it work only 50% of the time for example, or only at day or night. (Or any other condition that would require people to be careful with it)

 

- Anti-social : so you're anti-social and you can talk to anyone (but NPCs), buy from anyone (but NPCs), sell to anyone (but NPCs) ... need to better tune that one. Example : you can only talk to ppl in your buddy list, limited to 20 ppl for example. NPCs would actually sell/buy but for much higher/lower prices. These are only hints about what could be done. So far I wouldn't call it anti-social but anti-NPC :-) (plus, if it is not the case, Anti-social should not be able to join guilds).

 

Thought n°3 : I personnally feel more of an anti-social, not having the neg perk, as I almost know nobody in the game ... but NPCs, with whom I have great fun, lol. And that is part of my role play. I would have taken the neg perk but it would have forced my character into being social with other players ... I know : why am I playing a mmorpg then ? because I think you guys are the best not-really-Artificial Intelligence down here ;-)

 

Thought n°4 : I'm too new to the game to give my opinion about nexii, plus I can't play often enough to level up quickly so ... by the way that's another reason why you should keep Neg perks : for those who only play a few hours a week and need to boost the character to discover EL a bit more quickly ... knowing they will undergo some limitations later on.

 

Thought n°5 : maybe the wraith should tell noobs to really be careful and experience the game a bit longer before taking perks.

 

Thought n°6 : I think there are many different ways nexii and perks could be attributed ... the current one is quite basic but fine to me.

 

Thought n°7 : If you ever come across Sildegaar in the game, of course I will answer, but don't expect me to "follow the guide" ;-)

 

Thought n°8 : Now that I know what people think of the MM perk, I will not take it ... Instead I will hire bodyguards to go and buy a few books.

[Brom]

Thought n°8 : Now that I know what people think of the MM perk, I will not take it ... Instead I will hire bodyguards to go and buy a few books.

I recommend saving up and getting an MM cloak should you need it. I hope the perk will be removed.

[Starman_Omega]

I didn't read through the whole tpoic but I know that I'm not really a big fan of the perk system. I think it's much too unbalanced. the positive perks cost alot and the negative perks give alot. I suggest we could ONLY use pickpoints from negative perks to use for positive perks. that way you don't see a newb with over 20 physique and coordination and 3 attack and defense.

[Daxon]

I recommend saving up and getting an MM cloak should you need it. I hope the perk will be removed.

190459[/snapback]

 

And hopefully the MM cloak drop rate will get crippled. It may sound bad that, for example, one drops in 10,000, but let's face something.. just how many ogres/fluffies/cyclops are killed worldwide in EL each day?

[Drobus]

It's a really good idea if it implemented for all nexus,

1) it may stop players be able make greaves at level 10 in manu

2) players with a/d like 5 to use plate mail and serp

3)  it give a goal to train a skill

4) easier to do everything in EL

5) 19 nexus i needed stop take more cause imagine OA you need without neg perk (i didn't have any) for have corrct stats

 

I think its a bad idea, especially for reason number 4 you mention. If you just make it your level in a skill that 'determines' the nexus, then everyone can master everything and have equally high levels of P/C/W. True, with the nexus system, low level characters can use plate and serp with 5 a/d or something, but honestly, why do they need it, if they want to wear expensive equipment on lower level monsters with crappy loot, then so be it. But the big plus side is it increasese diversification of characters. If you want to master several trades, you'll have to have more OA and or more negative perks(even though they need rebalancing, the same principles apply).

 

Think about it this way, lets compare a fighter that does manu with one that does manu and potion making. The one that also does potion making spends and extra 5 nexus points on trades, and the higher OA he gets, the greater the XP difference he has to overcome to reach an equivalent P/C, and with equal OA, he will always have lower stats and/or more negative perks. If you just get rid of pp's for nexus, both characters can master both(and all other trades) and will effectively have the same number of pp's for stats. Characters will become even more cookie-cutter than they are now.

[Guest Lythe]

I like how the perks are now

maybe every bad perk should have an opposite good perk worth the same picks.

and just remove the reset option

 

so getting both the good and bad perks will return you to normal (or almost)

some are sort of already like that;

powersaving or fast regen for power hungry

no fork for i cant dance

 

and how about adding even worse perks, like the plague

[Kami]

I think its a bad idea, especially for reason number 4 you mention.  If you just make it your level in a skill that 'determines' the nexus, then everyone can master everything and have equally high levels of P/C/W. 

190714[/snapback]

 

I believe you may have misunderstood him. When he says "Easier to do Everything", he doesn't mean that 1 player will be able to easily do Everything, but rather he means, everything in the Game would become easier to do Individually! What he meant was that every skill should be Equally Avalible to every player and not be Limited more or less then any other Skill and each player should be able to choose which skill s/he wishes to work on and not have a skill's difficulty Predetermined on whether or not s/he has enough PPs for it.

 

I mean, right now, some Skills are very Easy to do and require few Nexus points to master while Other Skills are incredibly Difficult to Do and Require many Nexus Points, often in Different Nexuses.

Crafting is a very difficult Skill to start even though it requires few Nexus points yet a lot of money and/or many Nexus Points in other Nexuses.

Harvsting is obviously the easiest still yet requires 5 Nexus points to fully master.

Fighting Doesn't Require any Nexus Points yet once you have them, it helps! Even still, the Skill is "designed" to force players to invest in Nexuses.

And Alchemy Doesn't require any Nexus points to preform Alchemy yet requires Nexus Points in other Nexuses in order to get the most out of the skill.

And Magic requires no Nexus points at all, yet requires a lot of money!

 

In the end, it's no wonder why the same 3 or 4 skills are the most used in this game. Why should a player bother with the others when the same 3-4 skills supply the player with all s/he needs.

 

True, with the nexus system, low level characters can use plate and serp with 5 a/d or something, but honestly, why do they need it, if they want to wear expensive equipment on lower level monsters with crappy loot, then so be it. 

190714[/snapback]

 

Actually, I argee that any player should be able to wear any Weapon/Armor/Cape/Etc however and whenever they want, regardless of their Skill/Nexus Level. Player's shouldn't be limited in something so basic as what they wear! But just because they are able to wear something doesn't mean they can get the most advantage from it.

 

Instead of a Player needing a "Required" Level/Skill to wear something, that player should gain a Penoty of using something when below that Item's Level or requirements.

 

Like if a Player with an Overall Combat Level of 5 and a Physique of 3 is wearing a Plate Armor (which has a Level of 45 + a Physique Level of 10), that player gain an Experience Penalty equal to something like:

Experince Earned = Combat Experience/(the Item's Level - their Level) - (Item's Phy Level - Their Phy). Something like that would be able right. Then I'd like to see some newbie trying to train in it.

 

But the big plus side is it increasese diversification of characters.  If you want to master several trades, you'll have to have more OA and or more negative perks(even though they need rebalancing, the same principles apply). 

190714[/snapback]

 

The reall issue is that it doesn't add all that much diversity into the game when player's still only choose the same basic Attributes/Nexuses/Perks/Etc. You touched upon the problem a little up there. Out of the avalible Attributes, smart Players only choose 3 of the 6 attributes inwhich to spend their Pick points. The rest goes into Nexuses and Perks. 3! That's like Only having 3 choices of Colors in which to paint your House! It's all because the other 3 Attributes either aren't used or aren't used to thier fullest Potential so player's don't need to think very hard as to what they want of their character.

 

Not until those other 3 Attributes are utilized will there be a very wide diverity among players. And when that happens, you better believe the Nexus system will become obsolete, right along with the Perk system. There just will not be enough PP points earned from your Overall so supply all of the Attributes and Nexuses and allow players to have very balanced characters. And then you can bet the Perk System will become severly over used as player's are going to try for every PIck Point they can squeeze out of the game.

 

Not to mention that the game Needs several more SKills for player's to beable to use and to add more depth to the game. This most likely will mean even more Nexuses required to cover them effectively which, in turn, means even fewer Pick points for player's to spend on Attributes.

 

Of course, this all stands on the outlook of improving the next verison of the game. The Perk System as well as the Nexus system may serve some of you enough for you to be happy but, when looking at this game in context, there is no way that this same System is going to work in when the rest of the game is "Upgraded." In fact, I'll asure you that'll it'll be Miserable!

[shenriss]

I think its a bad idea, especially for reason number 4 you mention.  If you just make it your level in a skill that 'determines' the nexus, then everyone can master everything and have equally high levels of P/C/W.  True, with the nexus system, low level characters can use plate and serp with 5 a/d or something, but honestly, why do they need it, if they want to wear expensive equipment on lower level monsters with crappy loot, then so be it.  But the big plus side is it increasese diversification of characters.  If you want to master several trades, you'll have to have more OA and or more negative perks(even though they need rebalancing, the same principles apply). 

 

Think about it this way, lets compare a fighter that does manu with one that does manu and potion making.  The one that also does potion making spends and extra 5 nexus points on trades, and the higher OA he gets, the greater the XP difference he has to overcome to reach an equivalent P/C, and with equal OA, he will always have lower stats and/or more negative perks.  If you just get rid of pp's for nexus, both characters can master both(and all other trades) and will effectively have the same number of pp's for stats.  Characters will become even more cookie-cutter than they are now.

190714[/snapback]

 

For reason 4 i meant in this game there is no class, then everybody can do everything, and for be able do everything you need human 7 (thermal serp)+animal 5 (chimy)+ vegetal 5 (magic pot)+ inorganic 5 (titan) + artificial 7 (tit axe) + magic 3 (dis rings) and i'm sure more soon. Then you need 32 nexus... then i let you imagine what are the stats at who take all nexus... of course you can take negatives perks most of them are really negative but one isn't cause easy bypass it ... everybody know what i mean i think using a forbidden way do it. and nexus or not a lot of players take them.

 

With the systeme of only level requirement and nexus most of players can make some items at lower level and that's not faire making greaves at manu level 20 or wear plate mail at a/d 3/3... It seems to me player should have work for be able do that not only take all neg perk and can do everything in 3 weeks with hight fail.

[cedox]

Yes to neg perks. They work in well thought rpgs like GURPS they should work here, too. Just add neg. perk point limit

 

- Cedox

[duran]

problem is that gurps is a pen and paper rpg and therefor is simpler to apply the effects of a negative perk (flaw).

 

a computer however have to deal with numbers and math logic, so unless you can tag some sort of math logic to how a flaws should affect the person then its useless...

[Atreyu]

I have Godless, I can't dance and Power hungry.

 

Godless is fine, I wasn't planning on serving a god.

 

I can't dance is okay, because if anyone attacks the creature you're fighting, it goes for them.. usually.

 

Power hungry I just got recently and it's not bad... I just keep fruits instead of veggies now, and maybe 10 or so more than usual.

 

I used to have Antisocial, but it basically caused me to reset.

I had been.. abusing.. alcohol when I got it, and I guess thought it would be fun? I dunno.

Well yeah it sucked... alot. Not worth the 10 pickpoints even.

I got so desperate, I traded EE's to another char to sell for me and got a warning.. I am very sorry about that.

 

So yeah, don't get Antisocial unless you aren't much of a maker/buyer/seller.

 

I also think there should be another negative perk that makes you lose all items if you are killed by another player.

 

Oh right... Keep negative perks! Either that, or take them away and let us keep Pickpoints.

Edited September 21, 2005 by MindFreak

[N1k0n]

Have u ever thought at fighters?

Fighters use the pickpoints given by Neg perks to improve their p/c/w

if we take out perks it means the passing from El version2(attack/defence/no combat, but with attributes) was for nothing!

It means EL should have never changed , ain't that right?

and keep MM perk ? why cuz noobies can bagjump ur death bag?

 

me frankly im against this "take out neg perks" thing

[Benvolio]

I used to have Antisocial, but it basically caused me to reset.

I had been.. abusing.. alcohol when I got it, and I guess thought it would be fun? I dunno.

Well yeah it sucked... alot. Not worth the 10 pickpoints even.

I got so desperate, I traded EE's to another char to sell for me and got a warning.. I am very sorry about that.

 

So yeah, don't get Antisocial unless you aren't much of a maker/buyer/seller.

 

I also think there should be another negative perk that makes you lose all items if you are killed by another player.

199599[/snapback]

 

I have antisocial too, and many people do. it really isn't hard to cope with as long as you have friends.

[Atreyu]

I hate using people though.

And they're too nice to accept pay for getting you stuff, so... it feels awkward doing that.

[Rizla]

How will this be fair on everyone?

 

People who already have the perks: Will they have to reduce their PP investments? It wont be fair to change the effects because it will not be what they expected.

 

People who dont have the perks: If everyones PP investments stay the same and you reduce the amount of PP gained for taking on Negative perks, it wont be fair on new players, they will never be as strong as others who got the perks before they were changed.

[Brom]

Did you read this whole thread?

[Guest Will]

i dont really mind the way they are now,but i agree with the anti-social no buying/selling from any npc,as for increasing/decreasing the points,that would be bad more than good,more pps for taking a - perk makes it more tempting to take it,less and its not that much worth it,as for taking them out,if the people who get those perks get them,they made the choice themselves and so take all the responsibility for thier actions. its not like anybody forced them to take it.but increasing the I can't dance perks pps,the people just could not fight or anything,just do alchemy or buy the stuff they need for summoning,so the increase would make it even easier for them without affecting them at all pretty much,if they want to stay away from monsters,mm perk could just take up the position.

[Anya]

I agree with Ais ... get rid of all negative perks!