Level Requirements.

[gadai]

One of the threads I've been watching recently made a very good point about weapons and armor, saying that any new char could harvest lilacs for three days and be, suddenly able to afford and wear the best normal items in the game. Then tonight someone else told me about a level 18 manu skill char who through (I assume) manu pot and blessing made 3 greaves out of 3 sets of ingreds.

 

Both of these relate to inappropriate capabilities for levels. I immediately thought of the method used to control this on other games I've played and found perhaps a way of addressing this and, to a certain extent, the economy simultaneously.

 

The suggestion is that there be level requirements (not recommedations) for items - both for their making and their usuage. An example of this would be iron plate armor. The recommended level to make plate if the *O* site is correct is level 40, make this the required level in manu (without boosts) to make it. Obviously a higher skill gives you a greater chance in avoiding failing. Similarly a character should have 40 in the appropriate skill to wear it, the appropriate skill in this case being defence.

 

For weapons I would suggest a similar tact - if the manu level for a serpent sword is 38 then a character should have level 38 attack before being able to wield it.

 

How would this affect the economy? Well, all of a sudden there's less reason for new players to spend hours harvesting lilacs - they can't wear the items anyway! Also it provides a reason for manu characters to make weapons (besides tit longs or better) because there is now a market for them.

 

If I've missed anything obvious please feel free to enlighten me

[freeone3000]

You can't have manu pot and manu blessing, the one you took seconed would override the first.

 

We have had level requirements on manufacturing items, let's keep this system the way it is (mostly, see thread on general chat). The level requirements for wearing items has been done before, and I think it should be brought back.

[gadai]

I seem to remember that if you let the manu pot effect slip down one point and then get the blessing that they do stack. If someone can correct me on this please do

[Acelon]

We had level req. back in the day. I hated them

[rudyzhou2]

if we make lvl requirements we are making EL more like RUNESCAPE 2, i don't think ppl would like a game like RS2 after all, RS 2 is really suky

[Aislinn]

We had level req. back in the day. I hated them

187300[/snapback]

We did have level requirements not so long ago. It was WONDERFUL, I loved it. I wish we had them back.

 

And just because something makes sense doesn't mean it's "like runescape" <_<

[rudyzhou2]

think abt it really the skills in EL is really like RS2 alrdy, r u guys making a game that is similar to other games or 1 that is really unique ?

[Daxon]

Consider a level requirement for wearing equipment a safeguard against stupid, careless mistakes. Wearing a full iron set with 10/10 a/d and getting killed, maybe?

[gadai]

A lot of games have these type of systems - not just Runescape 2. Besides, even if Runescape 2 was the first one to ever do it, if it's of benefit to EL pinch it I say!

[the_antiroot]

A thought.

 

Yuo could have a system where you get reduced benefits untill you reach the appropriate skill.

 

For example, with plate toreso , lets say its meant for "level 40" defence, it may provide 1 less arpmur protection per 5 levels you are unde skill, ie at lev 20 toy'd recieve 4 les armour points from it.

 

Similair penaltys could be added to weapons with accuracy, damage and defense(if any) bonuses as you dont have the skill to wield it efficiently.

 

That sort of system would also be more in keeping with the current failrate system.

[salun]

I like that last idea

Though I still think that adding some minimum level to use an item might be a good idea too...

[trollson]

I like that you can try to make things at any level, but with a variable failure rate. It means that you can try to make something much more complex than your skill would normally permit, but with the (almost certain) risk of using a lot more ingredients (which, often, themselves have to be made).

 

If there is a problem with the current balance, then adjust the failure curve. In the past I've used an equation of the form:

chance = 0.5 + atan ( a * (lvl - lvl0) )/M_PI; // chance E [0..1)

Where 'lvl' is the character level, 'lvl0' is the target level, and 'a' is a scaling factor which gives the effective width of the ramp-up. Gives 50% chance when lvl==lvl0.

 

This equation is has a symmetric profile. If you want to skew the curve, so for example it ramps up faster or slower for levels <lvl0 than >lvl0, add a power term:

chance = 0.5 + atan ( a * lvl0 * ( pow (lvl/lvl0, p) - 1))/M_PI; 

Where 'p' is some power term, where p E (0..1) ramps up chance at low levels faster, slows down the increase after 'lvl0', and p E (1..inf) does the opposite. (choose 'q' E [1..inf), set 'p' to '1/q' or 'q').

 

I know your not really interested in these equations, but I've been wrestling with MSProject all day and needed some relief! I may write this up with graphs and all if I get bored this weekend, so be warned...

Edited August 12, 2005 by trollson

[ttlanhil]

I say... level requirements! force people to use appropriate gear for their level (there's people who use plate items when fighting goblins, fer cryin out loud!)

either that or we need to make the equipment non-linear... a smaller weapon does less damage but strikes faster, and hence you also have better dodge.

that sort of thing

and leather has lower direct weapon defence, but higher elemental protection, see where this is going? make people chose the right gear for them, because it's all good for different uses

[The_Piper]

I say... level requirements! force people to use appropriate gear for their level (there's people who use plate items when fighting goblins, fer cryin out loud!)

 

187356[/snapback]

 

I say no, but:

 

Like the fail+loss in manufacturing items there should be a similar thing for using items.

 

Meaning, you can of course wear a serp with a/d 5/5, but because you dont know how to use it (level too low), you have a high chance to break it. Or hurt yourself.

 

Same with armour. Wearing full plate to show off is ok, but using it in combat without the adequate levels(= knowledge how to use it), is not an advantage but an disadvantage and should lower your levels.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Piper

Edited August 12, 2005 by The_Piper

[Placid]

We did have level requirements not so long ago.  It was WONDERFUL, I loved it.  I wish we had them back. 

 

And just because something makes sense doesn't mean it's "like runescape"  <_<

187313[/snapback]

ARRRRGGGG!!!

 

I totaly agree. This is such a common thing throughout MMORPGS to have to 'work towards' wearing or using an item.

 

PLEASE!!!! Bring the requirements back. It is so important not only to the dynamics of the game, but the economy too.

 

 

Surely this can't be too hard either....

 

Like the fail+loss in manufacturing items there should be a similar thing for using items.

 

Meaning, you can of course wear a serp with a/d 5/5, but because you dont know how to use it (level too low), you have a high chance to break it. Or hurt yourself.

 

Same with armour. Wearing full plate to show off is ok, but using it in combat without the adequate levels(= knowledge how to use it), is not an advantage but an disadvantage and should lower your levels.

NO NO NO! Thats a complete cop-out. Level requirements are so common in RPG like games. Why?

 

Because it WORKS! Its a generic convention, a given; A MUST to improve the dynamic and balance of the game.

 

I am seriously passionate about this

[The_Piper]

NO NO NO! Thats a complete cop-out. Level requirements are so common in RPG like games. Why?

 

Because it WORKS! Its a generic convention, a given; A MUST to improve the dynamic and balance of the game.

 

I am seriously passionate about this

187358[/snapback]

 

Why? If the serp breaks after every 3rd gobbie, it is nearly a level requirement. And a nice moneysink too.

 

Piper

[ttlanhil]

Why? If the serp breaks after every 3rd gobbie, it is nearly a level requirement. And a nice moneysink too. 

 

Piper

187359[/snapback]

then you'd have the high level fighters demanding the scale works above recommended level too, so they never break anything. but for below the rec level, your version could work(need the crit failure option, though, where you can hurt yourself, bust your gear, etc)

[Placid]

then you'd have the high level fighters demanding the scale works above recommended level too, so they never break anything. but for below the rec level, your version could work(need the crit failure option, though, where you can hurt yourself, bust your gear, etc)

187360[/snapback]

Exactly.

 

Sure this too could be incorporated into level requirements. However, as you get higher and higher above the requirements, where is the money sink with this method?

[The_Piper]

The money sink is only for players with too low levels. If some1 wants to serp gobs and rabbits, he can do that, but will pay for it coz the items break very often. Ok, wont be that huge money sink..

 

@ttlanhil

I wont suggest that the higher your levels are above the recommendet ones, the less you break items. Lets have the breaking rate for ppl at/above recommendet level as it is now and increase it dramatically for ppl with lower levels.

 

And a critical failure option would fit very well to such a system.

 

Piper

[gadai]

(With a sinking feeling as he remembers his A/D) Ttlanhils idea sounds pretty good I have to say - not quite what I had in mind but a good compromise. As regards the money sink issue - is this really as much of an issue at the higher levels? I honestly don't know *shrug*

 

As regards manu - with the skills system the way it is at the moment I just kind of feel that recommended should be replaced by required. It means the people who put in the effort are the ones who reap the rewards - which seem only fair to me. In the example I listed above (level 18 manu char making 3/3 greaves) he subsequently sold on the greaves for 6k each - not an unknown price but certainly a very low one. I can help but suspect that the person involved may have felt that considering how easily they got to a level to make the greaves that the greaves worth was diminished. Making people get to level 26 to make greaves, level 38 to make serps - would that surely not make them feel like they want a better reward for their time? Hopefully this would push up the prices on high level manu items and sink some of the gold.

 

Another point is that the higher level players might be expected to have ungodsly amounts of resources. With the additional weapons/armors which the updates in the future will bring, alot of that may be soaked up through the initial rush for new gears. Another option is, of course, to provide new options to drain money from the wealthy characters - their own house/castle (for 500/800k)which could not be sold/passed on would be an example, and there are plenty of empty houses scattered around the game which could be sold . Something which acts as a money sink which is unavailable through any other means.

[LemonStar]

Personally I found the level requirments to be a pit of a pain, but also a good boost. It was a real acheivment to get my old char up high enough to be able to make all the bars, and you had to put in a lot of work to do it. Bringing them back will re-introduce the feeling of acomplishing something (for those achiver players) and also slow the market down as less people will be able to make the higher ended items. Things like tit serps and plates will then become slightly rarer and so cost players more, meaning they have to work more to 'earn' them.

 

Having a lvl requirment to use a weapon/armour I think is a good idea. Means you stop newbies running around IP in full plate showing off. Setting a minimum a/d level to use a weapon/armour would make sure they trained well... This would however lead to the lower lvl people (who can't use the weapons) to spend a lot longer training on lower creatures as they can't get the advantage of a weapon to kill anything higher. If you had books ("Tit serps for beginers ) then you could use/wear the weapon/armour at a lower lvl than normal (say 2-5 lvl's?). that also gives another money sink, with high lvl books costing lots of money.

[GreenGanjaKing]

We did have level requirements not so long ago.  It was WONDERFUL, I loved it.  I wish we had them back. 

 

And just because something makes sense doesn't mean it's "like runescape"  <_<

187313[/snapback]

 

i seem to be on a role with agreeing with people i usually dont as of late

[pennifuin]

hmm. i think somone earlier mentioned that it would make this game too much like 'other' games, *cough* runescape*cough*. Well we could put a spin on level requirements. As im sure alot of you know. there will be an assortment of schools popping up around eternal lands.

 

Well what we could do, is utilize the "fighting" schools. Have a person there who can 'teach'you how to use a weopon/piece of armour/spell, but he wiill only teach you once you have enough experience.

 

This could also work for manu/crafting. Also i think its rather odd that there arent any Magic Books...aparently we're all inherently all-knowing wizards...o.0...

[ttlanhil]

Well what we could do, is utilize the "fighting" schools.  Have a person there who can 'teach'you how to use a weopon/piece of armour/spell, but  he wiill only teach you once you have enough experience.

187517[/snapback]

with the current plan, there are no schools for fighting. though you may be able to make a case for fighting schools to be added

[trollson]

Well what we could do, is utilize the "fighting" schools.  Have a person there who can 'teach'you how to use a weopon/piece of armour/spell, but  he wiill only teach you once you have enough experience.

 

This could also work for manu/crafting....

187517[/snapback]

 

This is an excellent idea, and fits in with something I have been thinking about.

 

It would be good to have supply-and-demand pricing in the market place (for a more dynamic economy, which the characters could influence... but that is another topic). However, this is not possible while characters have to flood the market with items made purely for levelling.

 

Plus, manufacturing 1,000's of leather pants is not really the stuff of legends. Endurance and bloody mindedness, maybe

 

So I was thinking along the lines of not-for-profit 'training' activities, which would work like current harvesting; non-interactive, hourly activity cap, random "industrial accidients" and bonuses. Each skill could have its own activity cap, or share the harvesting cap across all such activities.

 

Each skill would have a number of training activities, giving increasing experience per activity unit (cf. experience per quantity harvested/mined). Access to each would have to be limited in a similar fashion, or maybe the accidents are scaled against character level (just too dangerous to try to do high level training too early).

 

While you would want easy access to at least the lowest level training activity (characters sit in a corner and whittle or something), using NPCs as Masters in each skill would make excellent sence. Characters would have to gain access to the Master somehow (enrol, cost, quest, knowledge), and train with them (sit and listen, practice, etc). Maybe higher ranking Masters would require a character to have graduated from a previous one?

 

Nothing need, or should, be produced by training in skills -- although the "industrial bonuses" (cf. mother nature's little gifts) could give rare items made by accident. Alternatively, low level minor ingredients could be produced (rings for chainmail for instance), these would have to be of the order of harvested goods.

 

The net results should be less mind-numbing levelling. Experience for non-training item manu could be reduced, in return for increased value. Real items would only be manufactured for need, since it would be easier to train with a Master instead, and the manu of such items could be more involved (as in the new system described by Roja).

 

(Thanks to Gadai for ideas in discussing this)