Terri Schiavo

[rebootedrock]

The parents - The ones who love her and acually give a shit about human life

 

Her husband - Who just wants money and wants sex

 

You decide

 

And reboot: The old farts didn't go feed themselves, their tribe members did, they throw them to the polar bears

I am quite aware of your posts.

I am talking about some other tribe/race/time so it has nothing to do with your polar bears.

 

This is a personal reservation of mine, the hell if your going to flame me for it.

[Daxon]

Medically: She is likely unaware of her surroundings. She is also unlikely to feel pain at this point. She still should possess motor functons, and can look at people, possibly move, but without memory or cognition. If she can feel pain, then she is already in pain (and for a very long time), with or without feeding tubes. Previously, I mentioned it it is cruel to starve someone off and on. She is much worse off than having simple paralysis from what I have read and heard. Of course, I do not know her case as well as her doctors. I do not think she would last 2 weeks. She would die of dehydration, if the hospital withheld fluids, but I don't think that is what they proposed to do.

 

Are you positive of this? That she can feel no pain, even under medications? No, you're not. You don't know that right now, she sits in a bed immobile while her stomach is constricting itself with pain. You don't know that she is suffering right now or that she has felt pain the last 15 years on a regular basis. Until you know for sure that she is not in pain and never will be, then you have no right to say it's best to just let her die one of the ways that were used to torture POWs back in the 1700s and 1800s (still happens today).

 

Legally: States rights vs. Federal rights. This is now in the Federal Courts, because Congress and the President intervened. Right to Life vs. ummm... right to die. She cannot be given a lethal injection to stop her heart. Doctors can legally only remove her feeding tube. Legally, a spouse can give permission to do this.

 

I'd say it's more like Right to live vs. Right to Die Based On The Decision Of A Spouse That Is Probably The Reason Why You're Like This To Begin With. Even if she had a will, I'm sure nothing it in said "starve me to death so I can feel intense pain." The Schindlers have offered to pay her hospital bills, the last 15 years of it, take official permission of her and grant a divorce, but he won't accept it because he wants her to die. After she is dead, he'll order cremation. The evidence will be gone and he'll walk although he is the cause of why she is like this.

 

She must be starved but the mass murderers etc get a letah injection. Starving her is murder you can't see that another way. On that matter, you know what eskimo's used to do when people couldn't care for themselves? They fed them to the polar bears, sounds familiar doesn't it?

 

Sounds very familiar. Except we're not throwing them into the hands of a polar bear; we're throwing them into the hands of a murderer.

 

 

By the way, 'Pax'? You're an M.D. I'm a welder and a soldier. Your opinion is on equal level as mine. Just remember.. at the end of the day, I'll have a clear conscious knowing I didn't approve of someone's murder.

 

Yes. I will refer to this as murder from now on, as that is all it is.

[Leeloo]

Yes. I will refer to this as murder from now on, as that is all it is.

Fully agree.

[Arnieman]

And my guildmaster is already on here speaking exactly what I was thinking about the definition of life... I'm still gonna say my piece.

 

To me, were I the person to make the decision (and I'm glad I'm not), I don't know what I would do in this case. On one hand, we have the husband, who claims his wife is dead. On the other, the parents claim she's still "with us". And the ultimate question is, what is life?

 

Is life the mere act of existing, even if you are unaware of your surroundings, unable to interact in anyway, save basic bodily functioning? If so, then by all means, let her live. Stick the feeding tube back in, and don't bring this up again. Though, in this case, I have to ask what makes us anything more than the wild beasts.

 

But let's say life requires more for humans. Let's say it requires a basic awareness of your surroundings. Let's say we need a real interaction with the environment around us to claim life. In this case, you cannot convince me that being strapped to a guerney, and your biggest motor action is to blink randomly, is life. With that said, here we're debating whether an animate corpse should get food... I'm certain all those zombie horror films could give us an answer. (no, the answer is not "brains"....)

 

Then, let's consider motive. I'm oddly getting a tale of two families vibe from this forum, mostly from the "let her live" people. We've got her parents, saints of the same virtue as the Virgin Mary, or Moses, maybe even rivaling Jesus Christ himself. Then, we've got her husband, if he's anything short of Satan incarnate, he's at least an inner circle demon... Oddly enough, the other side isn't putting up the counter argument.

 

Finally, I think we all need to take a deep breath and put this in perspective. The way we've all been sold this story, it would seem like a cataclysmic event hinging on life or death here. Honestly, let's say she dies tonight. Sure, her parents will feel the loss, and her husband can move on. But as for the rest of us, if there is tomorrow, life will go on, largely unaffected by what really is a minor ripple in the big stream of life. People will still live and die. The bleeding hearts will largely forget this issue and move on to the next. And, the PK'ers in EL will still PK anyone dumb enough to get too close to a PK area.

[rebootedrock]

When one person dies, it's a trajegy.

 

 

When thousands die every day, it's a statistic.

[Mireille]

When one person dies, it's a trajegy.

 

 

When thousands die every day, it's a statistic.

- Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, a.k.a. Stalin

[Entris]

Starving some1 2 death is no more then an act of torture, she should be feed and as longs as she can live let her live!

[kat]

i honestly feel bad for the women,

she's been living a life in pain, and not being able to do hardely anything with her life. I voted yes because it's no way to live a life in a hospitable bed having ppl constantly feel bad for u, causing pain in other ppls lifes.

I do agree however, that starving a person to death isn't really a pleasent way to end someones life, heck i get hungry if i don't eat in a day and end up biting my fingernails

 

EDIT: spelling error

Edited March 23, 2005 by kat

[rebootedrock]

When one person dies, it's a trajegy.

 

 

When thousands die every day, it's a statistic.

- Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, a.k.a. Stalin

Looks like you have google on hotkey.

It describes this situation perfectly.

[Daxon]

It's disturbing to know about 39% of you believe she should be murdered. Unbelievable.

Edited March 23, 2005 by Daxon

[rebootedrock]

It's disturbing to know about 39% of you believe she should be murdered. Unbelievable.

not particularaly, you would be surprised how shallow people are, if they don't know someone, to hell with them.

 

Whether I know someone or not, If they will not recover from something that leaves them a vegetable (terri will not recover, you dont grow back your brain.), then I would send them off(for thos of you with no sense of imagination, remove life support).

 

 

I would ask the same from my family or anyone, better to have a good memory than to have years of going to the hospital to visit me when I am unaware of anything.

[Daxon]

This entire case contradicts my oath of enlistment when I joined the Army. I'm supposed to protect people. Yet, while I protect my country from hostilities, our own people are murdering our own people. Something just isn't right about that. This may be a deciding factor in why I'll discharge at an earlier age because there's no point fighting to preserve corrupt laws.

[SirKillAlot]

Daxon, I don't want to get on your bad side but.

 

Would you really want to live how she is living now?

[Daxon]

Honestly? No, SKA. I have had a will written out (before I left for Nigeria, I scribbled junk down and later added to it when I came home) that stated that if I came back in ANY form of a coma or unconsciousness, to just put me to rest. My situation wouldn't be the same as Terri though, as my parents nor grandparents are still living (which they have the ownership next to the spouse). I have a brother and a sister and a few cousins but other than that, no one else but my wife has the final say in what ultimately happens to me. Nevertheless, I stick by what I said that the happiest people are in the worst conditions. They don't have to worry about the day-to-day pains like some do, or have to put up with corrupt politics, tyrannic dictators, or anything. To have less personal freedom and exemption from today's events.. is better than living a normal life.

Edited March 24, 2005 by Daxon

[Alsrir]

I'd be totally fine if she was given a lethal injection etc, i'm just pissed about the way they are doing it - starving

[Paladin]

Look, if there's no brain activity, there's no point talking about 'Her', it's an 'It', some blob of cells hanging on a very expensive life support. And i think it's pretty imoral to spend that kind of cash when there are contless others that could be helped with less cash (Like children starving, i know it's a 'clishe', but there are).

[Malaclypse]

I have a somewhat shamanic view to this whole topic. I think if someone has the will to live, life will continue. If there's not enough will, people will begin to dive into (first psychic, later maybe physical) unconsciousness, in that they are not aware or don't realize what really happens to them (or to their body). The end of this is always the same: death. I think, we don't have the right to force another person into our will (that s/he should live) if this person itself hasn't this will and therefore won't live any longer. If we do this, we start to torture this person.

If such a person is living for years without any external life support, than s/he has the will and it is always worth to nurse this person and give maximum support to continue this life. If s/he needs external life support there's not enough will left and we should let nature go its way.

[Mireille]

When one person dies, it's a trajegy.

 

 

When thousands die every day, it's a statistic.

- Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, a.k.a. Stalin

Looks like you have google on hotkey.

It describes this situation perfectly.

No, I'm just familiar with the recent history. And I can spell non-Anglo-Saxon names.

[Mireille]

By the way, 'Pax'? You're an M.D. I'm a welder and a soldier.

You're a soldier. So when told to you'll grab your gun and kill people. I say that would be a murder.

[Daxon]

By the way, 'Pax'?  You're an M.D.  I'm a welder and a soldier.

You're a soldier. So when told to you'll grab your gun and kill people. I say that would be a murder.

For one, I don't use a gun. I man an A6 Paladin. As a result, my hearing has degraded over the past couple years.

 

Two, it's called duty and honor. I know that if I ever get deployed again, I will not be ordered to fire upon civilians: just hostile targets. Even in the case I was ordered to attack an innocent bystander, I would not do it. Some things are worth ignoring in order to preserve honor. They can discharge me, but at the end of the day, I know I will have done the right thing.

 

Look, if there's no brain activity, there's no point talking about 'Her', it's an 'It', some blob of cells hanging on a very expensive life support. And i think it's pretty imoral to spend that kind of cash when there are contless others that could be helped with less cash (Like children starving, i know it's a 'clishe', but there are).

 

A person's sex is defined by their reproductive organs, not their motor skills.

 

Then go out and help starving kids. Quit sitting here and do something.

[Annastina]

Without knowing the particulars of her individual case, I can only restate medical facts here. Everything else is only my opinion.

 

Medically, to pronounce her dead, she would have to be FULLY brain dead. The part of her brain that died and was resorbed by her body was her cerebral cortex. Her Cerebrum is not functioning. This area is where her body's most complicated mental and sensory functions are controlled - intelligence, reasoning, memory, emotions, vision, ability to feel things, etc. This is 85% of your brain's total mass.

 

What makes this confusing is that she can respond to visual stimulation, for example. Quite simply that is a different part of the brain involved. She is not consciously seeing. Were she to wake in the next five minutes, she would be deaf and blind and beyond severely retarded. I am sorry to have to put it that way.

 

Being bedridden for so long, even with intense physical therapy, her joints have stiffened. Rigor (not mortis). This is at least as painful as arthritis. And she has to be turned often to prevent bedsores.

 

This would cause her excruciating pain. If anyone of us could feel what that is said to be like, we would be begging to die. If she can indeed feel the pain of starvation/dehydration, then she feels that as well.

 

But the part of her brain that consciously feels pain has been determined to be gone. This is similar to when you are put under for surgery, you feel do feel pain but not consciously.

 

I am not saying I think she should or should not be allowed to die. We could possibly gain a lot of medical knowledge by allowing her to live. I don't know if that is fair to her...

 

Pax.

[Mireille]

By the way, 'Pax'?  You're an M.D.  I'm a welder and a soldier.

You're a soldier. So when told to you'll grab your gun and kill people. I say that would be a murder.

For one, I don't use a gun. I man an A6 Paladin. As a result, my hearing has degraded over the past couple years.

 

Two, it's called duty and honor. I know that if I ever get deployed again, I will not be ordered to fire upon civilians: just hostile targets. Even in the case I was ordered to attack an innocent bystander, I would not do it. Some things are worth ignoring in order to preserve honor. They can discharge me, but at the end of the day, I know I will have done the right thing.

A6 Paladin? WTF is that? No matter, it's used for killing people so it makes no difference to me.

 

You won't be ordered to shoot civilians. You will be ordered to shoot terrorists dressed up as civilians. You won't care anyway about who you've killed. You were told they were terrorists. You won't think. Soldiers aren't there for thinking.

 

You say that pulling out the tube would be a murder. You pull a trigger and you murder people.

 

If there is one thing that will finally destroy the USA it would be the smeging American hipocracy.

[Soldus]

If there is one thing that will finally destroy the USA it would be the smeging American hipocracy.

No, that's the only thing that let's some of them still look at their faces in the mirror.

It sure helps to believe instead of to think

[Mireille]

If there is one thing that will finally destroy the USA it would be the smeging American hipocracy.

No, that's the only thing that let's some of them still look at their faces in the mirror.

It sure helps to believe instead of to think

Watch out. You'll now probably be accused of being an anti-American anti-democratic communist nazi from France (it doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense).

[Alsrir]

Look, if there's no brain activity, there's no point talking about 'Her', it's an 'It', some blob of cells hanging on a very expensive life support. And i think it's pretty imoral to spend that kind of cash when there are contless others that could be helped with less cash (Like children starving, i know it's a 'clishe', but there are).

She is a HER because there ARE brainwaves, it's proven she DOES feel pain, just not to the extent of say what we feel (like if we get cut, if probally merely feels as a pinch) she smiles, she groans and moans, tell me how that is does without brainwaves