mm perkers

[GreenGanjaKing]

ok....i have forund out PK conests arent allow....agravating....now why complain about MM perk and have that messed with....because most should know when stuff is changed somebody or another complains and wines about it.....just leave it be and move on....

So, what you're saying is that we shouldn't bother to improve the existing Game in sake of Keeping the Players Happy? Why don't we just keep everything simple and easy so players don't even need to try! That'll Greatly "Improve" the game!

 

I've never been one to believe that the game should be made to Pacify the Masses or Cater to the Whims of Malcontents. Of course there are going to be players bitching about any changes that will make the game harder for them. That's why the intent is to only make changes that'll improve the game as a whole. Like I said before, We'll Never satisfy 100% of the people 100% of the time But so long as the game is ultimately better in the end, I think those few who don't like it will evenually Get over it and get on with their lives.

i said nothing about not improving the game....it is basically a if it aint broke dont fix it deal...the perks are fine...i cold see adding it to a quest but not taking it from being one of the perks..

[sirrobin]

well if bag jumping wasnt aloud why would people drop bags when you die lol

[The_Pale_Elf]

I haven't (that I know of) said that bagjumping is "cheating". It's just that bagjumpers have got another advantage now, since it's illegal to try to protect your stuff if you die. This really makes me shy away from the little hunting I once did... Screw fighting, I could die and have to go through the aggravation of knowing I just gave my crap to a prick who happened to be there.

[crannog]

Hey! Did we all hear the news!? Bagjumpers rejoice! It is now illegal to bigsit your own deathbag to keep bagjumpers from taking your stuff! Isn't that the greatest thing ever! Oh thank you so much to the gods-that-be, bagjumpers now have a better chance of taking our stuff! I can't contain the excitement! People who hate bagjumpers have been NERFED!

 

Gawd dam that sux.

easy solution...DONT DIE

 

if you dont want to risk your stuff...

 

a. Dont go into PK maps

b. Dont train on animals/mosters that are too tough for you

[Nissarin]

It's just that bagjumpers have got another advantage now, since it's illegal to try to protect your stuff if you die.

It's illegal to have second character that is used as a mule or to protect your bag when you die. Like is said in other thread - you can always ask for help some friend or someone from your guild.

[Kami]

The tricky bit is, are you making teh game harder or tedious and boring?

Neither! It's All about making it more interesting. You can't use the arguments of whether it'll more Tedious. Right now, it's both extremely Tedious and Boring. In order for Manures/Crafters/Etc. to be very productive, we follow a constant Work Cycle, of Harvesting to Making to Harvesting again then back again. If we stop that cycle for even a bit, we lose productivity.

 

But as Boring and Tedious as it currently is, it's also very efficient; Too Efficient! Because of the fact Players can devote so much time and effort to one goal, we can mass produce anything we wish only by focusing on it for a relative short time. Added to that, Anyone who desires a “Free Pass“ through Hostile Areas can Multiply their Production by 120% just by investing a small amount into the MM Perk or Cape. It makes it so easy to make things in large numbers, that the Devs had to implement Heavy Limits on to our abilities, such as Long delays in Mixing Times, High Fail Rates, and even removing our abilities of off-loading most of our Goods, all in the effort of Curving our already Overly efficient Production of Useless junk.

 

Removing the MM Perk will not make it any more Boring or Tedious then it already is. It will make way for further development of the game as well as providing at least a little incentive for the Devs to release some of the restraints we have on our abilities. It won’t do a whole lot but at least as long as player’s aren’t so Eager and Gun-ho to risk their lives, there won’t be 200 Player’s all Flooding the market with as much Junk and Money as there is now.

 

And so what if a player gets himself killed gathering Whatnots and Wingdings from NeverNeverLand! I really won’t hold any real Sympathy for them. Enough people in this world don't think before they act as it is and EL is no different.

 

My problem as somebody who primarily harvests is that I could not practice my chosen profession in any meaningful way without also being a fighter type.  I'm A/D 28/30 right now and harvest 53.  If there was no MM perk then I'd likely have something a lot closer to parity on those three and be substantially lower in my chosen profession.  What is the downside for fighters that matches my downside?

 

The concept of some sort of god or other quest to gain MM is interesting.  But that doesn't change what I perceive as a lack of balance issue.

 

This is because you need to look at the Big picture. At the moment, all you can see is the thought of Lossing your free ride in the persuit of Otherwise Free Materials all in the purpose of Leveling your Skills. I understand player's like getting everything for Free but, in the intentions of designing a completely self-supporting, and extensive Game, you can't just have a game where everything is just given to you. You have to stop thinking about what's best for the few and think about the overall Game. Again, This is why I suggested a less harmful and far more balanced means of replacing it (several times and in several different ways).

It's not like you've going to start off the game in a hostile Map with no way to defend yourself! By the time you Need to go into a Hostile Map, you'll be able to, regardless of your choosen Profession.

 

You for example! You have a Level 53 Harvest! What earth would you need to harvest in which you can't walk through a Hostile Map for just a short time? Hell, you have Level 30 defence so you can't be afraid of Skeletons, Much less be afraid of Goblins. And you can harvest a load of Fruit just fine so you'll never be at a loss of money! The worst you need to fear is when going for Diamonds and Rubies, neither of which you can't do without a couple of Potions in your pocket or a Friend at your side.

 

Player's don't [bb]Have[/b] become part Fighter in order to progress their Trade. All they'll have to do is invest a small part of their money into atlernate means; Money they would have spent anyway on Life Potions, Armor, and the MM Perk/Cape. There's no real change except they'll have to take more care and spend more wisely and, of course, no more Free Rides.

 

Also, Balance comes not from everyone having the same and equal Advantages and Disadvantages but comes from one person's advantage counter-balancing another's Disadvantage. Not everyone should all be able to do the exact same thing all at the same time. That's also why the the Perks should be givenout by Gods, so player's who need them the most will get them easier and If other player's wants them, they should have to Sweat Blood and Tears to get them.

 

MM is hurting the Game because it gives all players everything they need far too easily by basicly making all the Materials in the game completely Free and takes nothing of any real importance from them in return. Just increasing the PP cost if it also will do little to curve the unabuse of it, one reason being they still have the ability to Reset constantly. No one Needs it in order for the game to work or to have fun in the game; They only get it because they Can.

 

I mean, I have MM Personally because Know it's makes my work so much easier, not because it's necessary! I never even bother to get it until I wanted to try my luck with Titanium and only because I had 20 extra PP that I hadn't spent yet. I didn't really need it because I don't harvest in Hostile Areas regularly. I only resently started mining Emeralds because I wanted to try experimenting with polishing Gems.

[Ruln]

This is because you need to look at the Big picture.

 

Do you primarily fight or harvest/manu? In the big picture I see the removal of MM as having minimum impact on fighter types and major impact on harvest/manu types.

 

At the moment, all you can see is the thought of Lossing your free ride

 

I spent five PP's on MM. I don't see that as a free ride. Especially given how worthless it will be in a year or two when I reach def 100.

 

You have to stop thinking about what's best for the few and think about the overall Game

 

I'm fine with that. I just see a disconnect here. I don't really care for the fighting aspect of the game. I do it on occasion, mostly as a change of pace. In your model I would have to devote a lot more of my time to building my def so that I could harvest the stuff I want to. I don't see this as a plus or a good way of enhancing the game. Increase the challlenge? Fine, but do it in the context of my chosen profession.

 

MM is hurting the Game because it gives all players everything they need far too easily by basicly making all the Materials in the game completely Free and takes nothing of any real importance from them in return

 

There are a heck of a lot of books to read before you can harvest everything and some of them take a lot of time to "read".

 

I didn't really need it because I don't harvest in Hostile Areas regularly. I only resently started mining Emeralds because I wanted to try experimenting with polishing Gems.

 

So without MM you would strip nakid other then a few pickaxes, sneak in and pray that when (Not if, unless you are very high level) you got killed you didn't drop what you were harvesting. You couldn't risk using the exc cloak or anything else of value unless you carried a Rastagol stone and those are far to rare to waste that way.

 

I agree with you that removing MM would have a profound impact on the game. It just looks to me like most of that negative impact would fall on the harvest/manu/alch/crafting side of the fence unless there were substantial additional changes. This sounds more like a version 2.0 kind of thing to me.

[Kami]

This is because you need to look at the Big picture.

 

Do you primarily fight or harvest/manu? In the big picture I see the removal of MM as having minimum impact on fighter types and major impact on harvest/manu types.

 

At the moment, all you can see is the thought of Lossing your free ride

 

I spent five PP's on MM. I don't see that as a free ride. Especially given how worthless it will be in a year or two when I reach def 100.

 

You have to stop thinking about what's best for the few and think about the overall Game

 

I'm fine with that. I just see a disconnect here. I don't really care for the fighting aspect of the game. I do it on occasion, mostly as a change of pace. In your model I would have to devote a lot more of my time to building my def so that I could harvest the stuff I want to. I don't see this as a plus or a good way of enhancing the game. Increase the challlenge? Fine, but do it in the context of my chosen profession.

 

MM is hurting the Game because it gives all players everything they need far too easily by basicly making all the Materials in the game completely Free and takes nothing of any real importance from them in return

 

There are a heck of a lot of books to read before you can harvest everything and some of them take a lot of time to "read".

Well, thank you for finally supporting my points, even if you meant that as contrary to them. You pointed out quite nicely the Flaws in MM and just why it should be removed.

 

So without MM you would strip nakid other then a few pickaxes, sneak in and pray that when (Not if, unless you are very high level) you got killed you didn't drop what you were harvesting.   You couldn't risk using the exc cloak or anything else of value unless you carried a Rastagol stone and those are far to rare to waste that way.

 

Again, you have nothing to worry about if you actually think before you just start Mining with no regard for the consequences. First of all, 40-50 gc tops and you'll be able to walk to and from Naralik totally unmolested! But If you're too cheap to spend that much in exchange for all the Emeralds you can carry, you could always ask one of the 20 or so fighters there to walk with you! And then, even if you do die, you will lose at most a Pick-ax (only 15 gc) on the way there and maybe 100 or so Emeralds (which are free) on the way back (and that's assuming you don't just do it the easy way and Teleport.) If you fear losing anything else, then just don't carry anything else. It's not like you Need an Exc. Cape. Sure, it's nice but if you don't want to take the necassary Precautions then it's your responsiblity to take care of your possessions, come what may!

 

I agree with you that removing MM would have a profound impact on the game.  It just looks to me like most of that negative impact would fall on the harvest/manu/alch/crafting side of the fence unless there were substantial additional changes.  This sounds more like a version 2.0 kind of thing to me.

 

Which is what we are trying to accomplish here. We're trying to make a game that is overall better then what it is now. Sometimes, that means changing it drasticlly, even if that means we're going to upset a lot of players. We've done it before and I can promise we will do it again and again and again until we get it right.

 

Maybe the fighters may gain a "Slight" advantage but taking into account the fighting system in the game is going to under go several changes as well and will require yet more balancing on their part as, we'll just have to cross that bridge when we come to it.

[Specter]

as far as I can tell kami your just sore you got bag jumped. you are also makeing it sound like its not a big deal when you die IT IS even if you dont lose much you have lost time spent harvesting, brs to recover health (though you could wait for it to increase but that takes more time) plus the walk back. Your welcome to do suicide runs to get whatever you need to harvest but most of us like to be on the safe side by bying the cape or saving up the PP.

 

Time is valuable BTW

[Ruln]

You pointed out quite nicely the Flaws in MM and just why it should be removed.

 

One mans flaws are another mans means of making a living.

 

The fundamental issue here is that fighters lose nothing if MM is removed.

 

Everyone else is forced to spend far more time working on their combat skills. I don't see that as a benifit for anyone. Many of the spawns are way overhunted already. Hey, theres a downside for the fighter types, more competition for monster spawns.

 

Explain to me how fighters lose by this. Thats my main issue. They gain, everyone else loses and the game essentially turns primarily into a hack fest.

 

I'm not saying there aren't issues in this area. I am saying removing mm by itself causes as many problems or more then it solves.

[Rend]

Ok to solve the perceived mm perk bag jumper problem i propose the following solution: no more death bags.

 

If u die, all your dropped stuff goes poof. Buy more in the market or from bots or whatever. Death needs to have a 'sting'. Most games impose some kind of penalty on death and this would be the perfect solution, esecially since the introduction of Rostogal Stones.

[Specter]

If u die, all your dropped stuff goes poof

wow that would make PKing so pointless and noprofitable, btu seriously is this a joke or are you serious

[Kami]

as far as I can tell kami your just sore you got bag jumped. you are also makeing it sound like its not a big deal when you die IT IS even if you dont lose much you have lost time spent harvesting, brs to recover health (though you could wait for it to increase but that takes more time) plus the walk back. Your welcome to do suicide runs to get whatever you need to harvest but most of us like to be on the safe side by bying the cape or saving up the PP.

 

Time is valuable BTW

Little Advice, don't say anything when you don't know what you're talking about. I'll have you know, in all my time playing, I've never been "Bag Jumped" nor would I care if someone did come up behind me after my death and took what they needed. I have nothing against Bagjumpers in general since they are completely free to do what they think is fun in the game, Altough I'll grant they are somewhat annoying to some. I only distain the MM perk and how it unbalances the game.

 

Also, you're completely right, Time is valuable! That's why player's shouldn't have as much free time as they want and should have to Bleed Sweat and Tears in order to Earn it.

 

 

Ruln, What you are still missing is that the MM Perk is holding this game back on so many levels yet actually making the game too easy! Because the game is so easy, player's can reach level 30 in a Month of any given skill (with the exception of the underdeveloped Skills), thus forcing the Devs to constantly Cut the fun out of the game in the effort to curve the rampant growth in Player's skills. So long as we have MM, the rest of the game is going to continue to suffer. But if you really like the game as it is and actually don't want the game to continue to grow, then why don't we just pack up and Package the game as it is as the Finished Product because if you want the game to be fast and easy, you already have it exactly the way you want it.

 

Anyway, Again, I'll say The Game Isn't Finished. In fact, it's just about Pitiful at how Small and Limited as it is currently. We are going to have to do a LOT of work of constantly Balancing and Rrebalanceing, Changing, Redesigning, and Complelely Rethinking Everything in the game before we can slap a Satisfaction Sticker on it. A Year ago, this game was completely Differant then it is now. In some ways, it was better and in someways it was completely pointless but, Like now, it was in a state of Flux where everything had to be changed and redone almost every week and it's going to need to be done again, even if that means changing something most may like if it means the game will be improved.

 

The real issue is that everybody only thinks about Thier character and what's best for Their character (which is expected Honestly) But What I'm Trying to do is look foreword to the finished Product while trying my hardest to keep the system perfectly balanced and if that makes it where every player have to work Harder, Longer, and Smarter, then so be it. It was never meant to be easy for everybody.

 

The game is just too "Simple" and Shallow to have what is known as a "Universal Constant" in the game. When at anytime the Game is completely Shifted to one extreme or another, the entire structure is bound to fall. MM is too Extreme and Shifts the Advantage of a player too far to one side. After all, We have Weapons and Armor Break in order to keep the Cycle going and to prevent one player from maintaining an advantage that is never meant to be Permanent.

 

MM Should not be Permenent either.

[Rend]

If u die, all your dropped stuff goes poof

wow that would make PKing so pointless and noprofitable, btu seriously is this a joke or are you serious

I am very serious. Perhaps a there could be an exception to this when a pvp kill is recorded, but training death bags, should go away.

[freeone3000]

I have yet to see the disadvantage for fighters, Kami.

[Aislinn]

I have yet to see the disadvantage for fighters, Kami.

The point here is it is supposed to be an advantage for all. Advantage in this case not being the ability for more monotonous mass production, but for more varied, unpredictable, and exciting gameplay ultimately with more options for everybody.

[Ruln]

But that case hasn't been made.

 

My suggestion, tie the monster ignore to OA level, not defense.

 

Or better yet, tie it to harvest.

[Aislinn]

But that case hasn't been made.

I think it has

[Ruln]

Lets compromise. We'll tie the monster ignore feature to harvest level and eliminate mm. Sound good?

Edited March 18, 2005 by Ruln

[Kami]

Lets compromise. We'll tie the monster ignore feature to harvest level and eliminate mm. Sound good?

Umm..., No!

 

By doing that, All a Player has to do is train a little on Harvesting and They'll automaticly get MM, which is almost easier then having it a Perk. If we were to do that, why don't we make it easier and just Give MM to every player when they join the game Or better yet, Why not just remove all the Monsters in the game completely. (There's your Disadvantage to Fighers!)

 

The whole point is to Keep the game from being Easy, as well as keeping it Relevant to the Story and Gameplay (what does your Harvesting Level have to do with Monsters anyway?) Player's Can't just be able to Avoid monsters without some sort of constant and focused effort to that effect!

 

On the Otherhand we could use your idea but the Minimum Ignore Level for anything from Goblins and Above would have to start at level 150. Then, I'll Concider your idea as viable. Of course, that will make the Game very Boring and a Long Wait, so that idea is out of the question.

[Ruln]

The point is if you leave it tied to defense you are requiring that every player spend a bunch of their time fighting to increase their levels to the point where they can actually practice their chosen profession.

 

Thus turning EL into primarily a hack fest. You have yet to address this little problem. And I'll say it one more time (And for the last time, I think this has gone on long enough). Removing MM does little or nothing to hurt fighters while totally screwing everyone else.

 

Doesn't make sense. Causes more problems then it solves. Doesn't really solve much of anything from what I can tell as bag jumpers predate MM and would postdate its removal if that were to occur.

 

Removing MM by itself would not improve the game. You would have to do other things in conjunction. Having monster ignore tied to OA or Harvest is one possible solution.

[Aislinn]

The point is if you leave it tied to defense you are requiring that every player spend a bunch of their time fighting to increase their levels to the point where they can actually practice their chosen profession.

 

Thus turning EL into primarily a hack fest. You have yet to address this little problem. And I'll say it one more time (And for the last time, I think this has gone on long enough). Removing MM does little or nothing to hurt fighters while totally screwing everyone else.

Not so. It would be so if all monsters were on all maps. But they aren't. There are plenty of "safe" places to go. EL isn't all pk, and it isn't all highlevel monsters. There are even maps with no monsters of any level. It's a choice...the higher the prize, the higher the risk. It should be that for all the players. Not just fighters. But nobody is making you take that risk. And there are ways around that risk.

[Kami]

First off, I'll like to say that I believe the "Ignore Levels" should be completely done away with anyway and all Monster's should attack on sight. That way, players Can't just train up a little and then be safe from monsters and must keep struggling. (How's that for an equally balanced game!) But of course, that's not a viable solution in the game right now.

 

Now, as to your concerns Ruln, I have suggested several ways of correcting the balance for each player without providing every player access to "Infinite Invulnerability." I see nothing wrong with any one of my proposed solutions and you have yet to explain MM to be better.

 

If we do keep the MM Perk, I'd have to say that it should take players Constant, Hard work to both Get and Keep. Such as a God Quest that was discussed would be a good choice since not every player will be able to get it and then they would have to work extremely hard to do it. The Crafting God would be the best choice seeing as Crafters would logically need it the most out of all the professions and Crafting is highly underdeveloped and unsupported anyway.

 

For players who do not choose the Crafting God, they wouldn't be completely at a loss. They could buy Potions or Monster Repellants that would have the ability to keep monsters at Bay for a short time but would not be permanent and would still require players to work for them.

 

And yes, you're right. Instead of just "Gaining Invulnerability" and going on your way, player's will have to keep doing other things in conjunction in order to keep the effects going if they want to use it for a long period of time.

 

Another thing, This isn't all about "Hurting all Players Equally." Oh, It will hurt Fighters. Maybe not as much as non-fighters but they will feel the effects pretty harshly. A few ways off the top of my head:

 

1. Fighters who are trying to train on Trolls will have a much more difficult time with that Cyclops wondering around.

 

2. Pker's will find it difficult to fight in Tyrnim Ruins and Tajhi desert not being about to fend off the Chim. Wolfs there. (Even Skeletons would start getting annoying to low level PKers in KF.)

 

3. Because Manufacturers can't make a Massive Cache of Weapons and Armor, Fighters are often going to either have to settle for inferior Gear for a while or are going to have to Pay out Huge Sums of money in order to get the Equipement they want.

 

And those are just want I could think of. That's not the only problems that fighters will find.

 

 

Again, Bagjumpers are not the Reason for MM nor are they the Reason it should be removed. Removing MM Will Hurt Bagjumpers somewhat by forcing them not to take as many chances and spend much of their hard earned Loot, though I do agree that will will never do away with them completely.

 

You see, this all makes perfect sense. And I know you know that too, even if refuse to believe it. Either that or you just haven't read a Word I wrote and insist on just seeing what you want to see. Either Way, I said what I said and I fully support the removal of the MM Perk as it currently is in favor of a better alternative.

[lpm]

The whole tread is useless.. why dont make all maps pk and let only fighters have fun?

Bad(g)jumpers make fighter's life miserable.. if you dont like it, add a way to protect your stuff or raice the % of the carefully perk.

This game is more and more for fighter kind of player, and thats the way of think of bagjumpers.

[LaNora]

I have mm perk also, but don't bag jump. If I find a bag I will pick it up and wait awhile for the owner, if no one shows up than no one shows up, but I have given bags back if someone walks up and tells me it's theirs.

 

I just like exploring and finding new things, i dont fight that much so my a/d is not that high, i like not having to worry about being attacked while looking around.