mm perkers

[immerentis]

See? I can be a Sarcastic, Smart-Ass too.

aww come on, you know you like being it too

 

seriously tho , did you read the entire post or my initial sarcasm got the best of your attention and all the rest seemed like verbose garbage?

Edited March 9, 2005 by immerentis

[Ruln]

the overall Concept is Pitiful and helps to create an almost stagnate environment

 

Speak for yourself. That certainly hasn't been the case for me.

 

I'm not exactly against Bagjumpers as a Choosen Field.

 

I am. The only thing more pathetic then stealing stuff in real life is stealing it in virtual life.

 

Oh? So, some player's should have it Easy while everyone else must work for a Change?

 

First of all, MM is available to anyone. You can essentially get it for free in conjunction with "I can't dance". Second of all MM does have some downsides. Like having to chase monsters all over the place if you want to engage them in combat. I don't view this as a big deal, but some people do. And thirdly, I haven't had any trouble finding interesting and challenging things to do in EL since getting MM. It opens up much more of the world to exploration and explotation. And EL isn't exactly huge. Not being able to go many places without stripping nakid and dieing nine times out of ten just doesn't excite me.

 

Ruln, If the MM Perk is the only thing that keeps you interested then I think you're playing for all the worng reasons.

 

Thats a very arrogant statement. I'll play the game so long as I enjoy it. Pardon me for doing so in a way you find objectionable.

Edited March 9, 2005 by Ruln

[Kami]

See? I can be a Sarcastic, Smart-Ass too.

aww come on, you know you like being it too

 

seriously tho , did you read the entire post or my initial sarcasm got the best of your attention and all the rest seemed like verbose garbage?

 

Um, Yes to both?

 

Ruln,

Speak for yourself. That certainly hasn't been the case for me.

 

You have also not played for very long. The problem with this game is that it starts out slow and challanging yet remaining interesting and new at the same time. But after a while, it loses it's luster after you've been everywhere and have done everything, all the while, by just trying to keep it interesting, players attempt to accompish something that quickly Spirals downward into Entropy (I'm beginning to believe there's a Corralation between the Creator and his Name).

 

I am. The only thing more pathetic then stealing stuff in real life is stealing it in virtual life.

 

Very True! But nevertheless, It's part of the game. I'm sure many people think having a God system in the game or a Magic System in the game is Pathetic yet others seam to enjoy it. It's called RolePlaying.

Besides, There's a lot that I disagree with myself, in the game and in Real life But I've learned to fix what you can and to live with what you can't.

 

First of all, MM is available to anyone. You can essentially get it for free in conjunction with "I can't dance". Second of all MM does have some downsides. Like having to chase monsters all over the place if you want to engage them in combat. I don't view this as a big deal, but some people do. And thirdly, I haven't had any trouble finding interesting and challenging things to do in EL since getting MM. It opens up much more of the world to exploration and explotation. And EL isn't exactly huge. Not being able to go many places without stripping nakid and dieing nine times out of ten just doesn't excite me.

 

You misunderstood my post. What about those who have no use for MM, yet still suffers difficulties from playing with a seriously unbalanced system. I'm talking about Manufacturers, namely. To be a Manufacturer, you must Train extenisively for Days on end but also require "Huge" Sums of money to do it. It's all because Leather is a NPC Product only and is sold for 10 gold a peice to start! Unlike Alchemists, who can Mine whatever they need whether they have MM or not, Manufacturers don't have alternative Sources. And then, to top it off, Manuacturers have to be masters of almost every other skill just to be able to master their Main Trade.

 

But either way, your point is Moot. So what if you have to chase a Fluffy across South Kilaran! Tell that to players who have to Chase a normal White Rabbit across White Stone!

 

Also, I understand Exploration. It's a big deal to me too. Which is why I suggested an Alternative! It's just not necessary for the game to have the Perk as it is.

 

Thats a very arrogant statement. I'll play the game so long as I enjoy it. Pardon me for doing so in a way you find objectionable.

 

Oh, that's not what I find Objectionable. <_<

But Nevertheless, you have the right to play the game any way you choose and I've never said otherwise! My only assertion is that you don't fully understand the implication and full impact the MM perk has had on the Game as a whole and how much it has been harmed by it.

 

If this game is going to recover from it's Crippling Setbacks and develop into a truely spectacular Game, We are going to need to throw away the Crutch and have players learn to play with their own two feet and make the most out of their potential! We can't do that by carrying players though the hard parts when times get tough.

[swisstest]

I think, though my opinion is not often the most popular, that bag jumpers serve their purpose... I mean, if you die, and everyone just assumes that that bag belongs to someone, don't touch it... what need is there for more armor/weapons in the game? and as the monsters drop most of the weapons/armors in the game already... what effect would it have on the economy if we just said hey, screw it... don't loose items on death...

 

You say bag jumpers are annoying... because they steal your stuff... I say you are annoying because you complain about the fact that they've gained something...

 

If you're high enough a level to afford that particular item, and high enough a level where you can fight something that's going to kill you even though you're using it... you're high enough a level to get another... thus you've helped not only a lower level player, but an alchemist who sold to the manufacturer, and the manufacturer. See, now that's team spirit.... Good Job, go die some more.

 

2 cents,

E.S.

 

P.S. it was the key quest, in the very back of the mine, the second gold ore on the western wall... near the pickaxe. I spent 3 days killing goblins so people could get there...

 

P.P.S. I've died hundreds of times... lost countless items... Gotten over it each time.

[Ruln]

Kami, I really do understand the implications. I' was part of a team that designed a game very much like EL... in 1988. The hardware wasn't up to the task (And to some extent neither were we) at the time so it never went anywhere. Furthermore a big part of my professional life has been desigining and maintaining complex systems.

 

EL has major problems. The economy being the key one. It needs far more controls in the form of NPC's that buy and sell everything that is available in the game and thus establish upper and lower boundaries for all items. These prices need to be fair to both the producers and the consumers. Meaning both sides complain equally.

 

The combat system has issues as well. First of all the setting is western European fantasy. Earning more experience by way of hand to hand combat is just silly in that context. Also you should be able to click on any monster or animal visible on your screen and attack it so long as it is not already a comitted resource.

 

EL is very inconsistent. Potions (At least the first couple) require no food, Ess do. Why?

 

The primary problem though is heavy handed tweaking of things like success rates and durations on the production side to try to compensate for perceived issues. And often these tweaks to particular items make no sense in context. Why do HE's fail so much more frequently relative to recommended level then other ess for instance? Why do FE work every single time?

 

Critiical failures should be very rare when you are at the recommended level for an item.

 

If the EL world were 20 times as large as it is then your suggestions would make sense. As it is there is far to little to explore. Making people wait months to gain levels to explore all of the very small EL world isn't going to do anything for the games popularity.

 

I'll make two disclaimers here at the end. One, these are one mans opinions. I'll claim they are informed and experienced opinions but that doesn't mean they are perfect or even correct.

 

And two, all criticisms asside creating something like EL is very difficult and I'm impressed with anyone that gets this far. Especially in the context of something that is free.

 

The game does however need a major rewrite at this point. More bags on the side aren't going to solve the issues.

 

And finally, the community is EL's strongest point.

Edited March 9, 2005 by Ruln

[Aislinn]

Making people wait months to gain levels to explore all of the very small EL world isn't going to do anything for the games popularity.

Err you think we all sat around and did nothing on the old server until we got those levels to wear the potions (mm) cape? Hahahahahahahaha!!! We had a great time, more fun then than now. And we could work on all our skills, no nexuses to hold us back. And work on them we did. And explore we did. Probably more than now. The game was more about gaming than leveling. I don't see how you can make judgements when you weren't here to see the difference. A different game back in 1988 has nothing to do with how EL was and is.

[Ruln]

I don't see how you can make judgements when your perceptions are clouded by some largely imagined ideal youth... (I suspect you didn't like me saying that. If so then good, you just got to experience what I did when I ready your response.)

 

Debate the ideas on their merit or lack thereof and leave the messenger out of it. Its very easy (And short sighted) to simply dismiss or accept what somebody is saying because of who they are.

Edited March 9, 2005 by Ruln

[Aislinn]

I don't think thats what happened here at all. But you are certainly free to think so. However you did make some assumptions on what the effects of a lack of the mm perk would be. I simply pointed out that you were incorrect, based on my experience of our gaming community playing in that exact situation in this exact game.

 

(And no, your statement didn't bother me at all...)

[Ogle]

Why the price for mm cape is so high? Don't tell me it is only becaude green looks nice.

Is MM cape broken too? No idea, but don't remove it, I like green

 

Actually, the reason is because it's a Monster Drop, thus very, very rare so of course the price will be high. Added to that, since player Want MM, then those who Can afford it will buy it, thus there will always be a market for them.

UHHHHHH NOOOOO

THere is a HORRIBLE market for MM capes

I saw Shivar trying to sell one for 9k for a few DAYS

[Ruln]

I simply pointed out that you were incorrect, based on my experience of our gaming community playing in that exact situation in this exact game.

 

No, I was not incorrect. And thats the key problem here. You are expressing an opinion. I am expressing an opinion. We both need to be willing to support those opinions without resorting to "You are wrong, I know better", or our opinions are pretty much worthless.

 

There are all sorts of really wierd little cliques and cults around. Within the confines of those societies all sorts of things work that would not do so in a more general context...

 

(And no, your statement didn't bother me at all...)

 

You lie!

[swisstest]

I believe Miss Aisllinn is saying you are wrong because there was a time when there was no MM perk, that she was there during this time, and that your opinion of what the game might be like without it is very different from what it ACTUALLY WAS LIKE without it... An opinion based on EXPERIENCE rather than... say fantasy...

 

But at any rate, there were just as many bag jumpers back then... carrying nothing at all, they just didn't wander over to ROT... it was occupied, which ironically no one does now anyway, MM or no... :-S

 

2 Cents.

Swiss

 

(Since I know you're asking yourself right now, and by doing so, adding validity to my point... ROT is the Ruins Of Tyrimn, the first PK map. No one goes there now, so if you wanna train without fear of bag jumpers, spend a few days there with me I hate being all alone all the time...)

[Ruln]

But at any rate, there were just as many bag jumpers back then

 

So the point of removing MM then would be what?

 

Its fine in my opinion to say something along the lines of "In my experience this is what happened when that was the case". It is however basically very impolite and counter productive to say "you are wrong." I've been on both sides of that and either end up getting pissed off or pissing off somebody else. Neither of which is productive for either side.

 

I've been playing EL for two months now. That makes me a newby by the standards of many of you. But you know what? I'm one of the most senior players on most of the time because the turnover is so freaking high. I'd guess that 90% of the characters created get played seldom or never after their first week or two of existence. There is a constant influx of new players, which is good. For some reason most of them don't seem to stick around though. The question is, why?

[Kami]

But at any rate, there were just as many bag jumpers back then

 

So the point of removing MM then would be what?

As I have said, this isn't about Bagjumpers (although the Topic was originally about them). It's all about how MM affects the game as a whole, not just the few.

 

The fact you can't understand this fact proves you don't fully comprehend the complexities within the game.

 

 

Its fine in my opinion to say something along the lines of "In my experience this is what happened when that was the case".  It is however basically very impolite and counter productive to say "you are wrong."  I've been on both sides of that and either end up getting pissed off or pissing off somebody else.  Neither of which is productive for either side.

 

..... I'm not even going to comment. Your ignorance speaks for itself.

 

I've been playing EL for two months now.  That makes me a newby by the standards of many of you.  But you know what?  I'm one of the most senior players on most of the time because the turnover is so freaking high.  I'd guess that 90% of the characters created get played seldom or never after their first week or two of existence.  There is a constant influx of new players, which is good.  For some reason most of them don't seem to stick around though.  The question is, why?

 

Aside from the fact your calculations all completely off, the game is only in Beta for crying out loud. We just haven't gotten around to making everything "Perfect" just yet. And another thing, There's no way we're going to please 100% of the players 100% of the time. Sometimes a new player will join up, play for a while and decide that this game just isn't for them. You know what? That's alright. It's not always our fault or the game's fault. Some people are just looking for something completely Different.

Also, Some players just Can't Play with the consistancy your looking for, for any number of reasons. But that's ok too! We understand and we're always here for whenever they get a chance to play. Then of course, there are the Riff-raff that only Joins too be Annoying and Aggrevate other players and not to play with any serious interest in the game and if they only play for just one day and are never heard from again, I say all the better.

Then taking into account that a good number of those "Dead Players" are actually other players with secondary accounts that would rather play with their main character. They just don't use them but they rather not delete them for some reason.

 

And even then, if only 1 out of 3 players who join stay on-board to play, I still say we have a pretty good Turn-out. It's not great, I'll admit but it's understandable at this stage of Development. We still have a good 300-400 Player's on-line at one time and thats just fine for Beta testing. Once the game is done, you'll have your turn over!

 

But you gotten to know, your not exactly helping matters much by taking the "I know more about Game Designing then you Game Designers because I worked on a Antiquated Game 17 years ago on Antiquated Systems that no one ever heard of" Approach.

 

Alright. I believe the Game needs work, You Believe the Game needs Work. It appears that we all agree that the game is currently in a state of Disarray but I'm getting the impression that you don't exactly understand just What it is that needs to be fixed.

Play the game a little more, Get experince in every area of gameplay and Learn about the game you're trying to Help with. Then, come and post your thoughts.

[Aislinn]

Well you can't say chocolate is better than vanilla if you have never tasted vanilla. Well you can but you sound rather silly.

 

Well back in the "olden days" of EL ( ) , players did stick around. Maybe because they weren't so bored?

[Ruln]

The fact you can't understand this fact proves you don't fully comprehend the complexities within the game.

 

The fact that you continue to attack me rather then my points leads me to believe you are unsure of yourself...

 

 

Aside from the fact your calculations all completely off, the game is only in Beta for crying out loud.

 

Please backup the first statement with hard data. I'd love to see it. As for the second statement, strictly speaking the game is in alpha. Beta software has feature freeze and is only going through testing and bug fixes.

 

I know more about Game Designing then you Game Designers because I worked on a Antiquated Game 17 years ago on Antiquated Systems that no one ever heard of" Approach.

 

 

You might want to look up the word hypocrite in the dictionary...

 

I started playing D&D in 1981. Were you even alive then? I've played well over a dozen different role playing games and hundreds of computer games on everything from S100 bus CPM systems through the Atari 2600, Vic-20's, Commodore 64's, Amiga's right on through to modern PC's. I've had a fulltime internet connection at home since 1989. I've worked fulltime in the computer industry for the better part of twenty years. I am not a clueless newby.

 

I'm not here to insult anyone. I'm also not here to kiss anyones backside. I'll tell you exactly what I think and I'll do my best to do so in a mature and constructive fashion. I'm also interested in listening and learning. If you can't take that then it isn't my fault or problem. And no, I'm not planing on going away.

 

Well back in the "olden days" of EL ( biggrin.gif ) , players did stick around. Maybe because they weren't so bored? tongue.gif

 

How many people were on the server back in those days? Could it have been the sense of community that kept people coming back?

[Kami]

The fact that you continue to attack me rather then my points leads me to believe you are unsure of yourself...

 

Make a Valid Point and maybe I will. I've perfectly supported my points to the best of my ability and had reduced your points to Sqawled Bickering, While your arguement, on the other hand, has amounted to not much more then Whining from a Newbie fearing the loss of the Best Feature you could gain.

 

There's a reason MM is broken. It's not suppose to be the "Ultimate Power" to get in the game.

 

Please backup the first statement with hard data. I'd love to see it. As for the second statement, strictly speaking the game is in alpha. Beta software has feature freeze and is only going through testing and bug fixes.

 

You want proof? It's in the game. Read the Forums. Stand around the Wraith for an hour. Talk to players in game. Play for more then two months.

It's all right there. The data you seek is from the player's themselves. You'll know this if you actually took the time to Ask before you "Guesstimated" without actually knowing the player's themselves.

 

Also, The Game is technically Beta. Maybe they did rush the game a little to get it into the Beta Stage but it's stll Beta by all defination.

 

You might want to look up the word hypocrite in the dictionary...

 

I'll do that when you look up the word "Irony."

 

I started playing D&D in 1981. Were you even alive then? I've played well over a dozen different role playing games and hundreds of computer games on everything from S100 bus CPM systems through the Atari 2600, Vic-20's, Commodore 64's, Amiga's right on through to modern PC's. I've had a fulltime internet connection at home since 1989. I've worked fulltime in the computer industry for the better part of twenty years. I am not a clueless newby.

 

As a matter of fact, Yes. I could say I started playing games in general in 1981, with playing everything from School yardTag to Simple Card Games to some of the most advanced Computer Simulations on the market. I dare say I know a few things about gaming.

 

And yet, all that means Squat here. Right now, we're talking about Experience in this game. Who cares what you've played before, as you've proven yourself just baout clueless as to This Game.

 

I've been playing over a Year now, Some of these others are still around from when the Game was firsted Launched! So don't dare to think you understand the game any more then the rest of us.

 

 

I'm not here to insult anyone. I'm also not here to kiss anyones backside. I'll tell you exactly what I think and I'll do my best to do so in a mature and constructive fashion. I'm also interested in listening and learning. If you can't take that then it isn't my fault or problem. And no, I'm not planing on going away.

 

Funny how you seam to be trying your hardest to. At least, you shouldn't be trying to get under everyone's skin.

 

And No one suggested you to "Go Away".  It would be nice if you wouldn't just "wave" our Experince and Knowledge of the game away In favor of your Whole "Two Months" of playing. Look, We know the game isn't Perfect. We already know of all the Problems that you've so 'Kindly' pointed out. What we don't need is someone Claiming Game-Designing Superiority, yet Stating the Obvious while completely ignoring the key issues.

 

Suffice to say, You don't know nearly as much as you pretend to. If you're so experianced in Game-Designing, why are you bickering in General Chat and not lending your knowledge to Suggestions and Development.

 

How many people were on the server back in those days? Could it have been the sense of community that kept people coming back?

 

Actually, quite a few. Not as many as now but EL was still relatively young back then.

 

As of now, I'd say that the Community in the game isn't nearly as stable and as pleasent as it was back then. It's still nice and better then most, but it's just not as good as it once was. The reason for the decline is because the game is no longer fun. Without being fun, the players lose their reason for playing and the game loses it's community. While it is True that the Community kept people coming back, It is only the glue in which the holds the rest of the game together but when the Game suffers, the Community tends to fall apart.

 

So, you're right. The Community is what keeps players returning. So, effectively, you've just proved Aisllinn right. The Game was so much more stable back then because it was so much more fun. The Game now may be more interesting but it has lost so much in turn.

[Ruln]

Make a Valid Point and maybe I will.

 

Let me translate. "Agree with me and I will".

 

So, are you prepared to stop arguing like a six year old yet?

 

You want proof?

 

Yes, and yet again you haven't provided any. I've watched hundreds of people come and go in the past two months.

 

I'll do that when you look up the word "Irony."

 

Irony is my middle name. No need.

 

all that means Squat here. Right now

 

That doesn't follow. Human beings build on their past experience. This is why for instance we don't have to learn to eat each new food we encounter. We do not start fresh with every new project. Well, not if we're smart.

 

Suffice to say, You don't know nearly as much as you pretend to.

 

Suffice it to say I'm not pretending. Nor do I need to. From where I'm sitting you're the one doing most of the posturing BTW.

 

So, effectively, you've just proved Aisllinn right.

 

That doesn't follow at all. Are you a programmer? Because if you are you should have a much better grasp on logic.

Edited March 11, 2005 by Ruln

[Highwarlord]

Quick words:

Im a newby explorer who enjoys the game do to the MM perk. I wander about and EXPLORE. I don't train as well as others, I don't make things, I explore and summon from time to time. MM is like this char's life

Even for me, however, dropping MM would, logically,help. First off, it would be much riskier for me in my travels. I am almost starting to regret taking it. When I was lvl 8, I would explore by summoning a rabbit or sumsuch and then running past the monster or pker. It was much more exciting. You see, people can find ways to get around lack of MM and I was in the pk maps all the time! MM makes the game easier, but should be left out. However, the cape should be kept in. Green IS an awesome color

Im going to go hide now so you people don't bite my head of for saying my opinion

*crawls into dark hole*

Edited March 11, 2005 by Highwarlord

[Aislinn]

@Highwarlord: Yes, the cape definitely should be left in, but harder to get and harder to wear.

The fact you can't understand this fact proves you don't fully comprehend the complexities within the game.

 

 

 

 

The fact that you continue to attack me rather then my points leads me to believe you are unsure of yourself...

Hahahahahahahahahaha that's the funniest thing I've heard all day!!! Kami unsure of himself????? Hahahahahahahahahaha

As of now, I'd say that the Community in the game isn't nearly as stable and as pleasent as it was back then. It's still nice and better then most, but it's just not as good as it once was. The reason for the decline is because the game is no longer fun. Without being fun, the players lose their reason for playing and the game loses it's community. While it is True that the Community kept people coming back, It is only the glue in which the holds the rest of the game together but when the Game suffers, the Community tends to fall apart.

 

So, you're right. The Community is what keeps players returning. So, effectively, you've just proved Aisllinn right. The Game was so much more stable back then because it was so much more fun. The Game now may be more interesting but it has lost so much in turn.

Exactly. The game has improved in many many many ways, but unfortunately as Kami said, it lost a lot along the way too, which is what triggered the loss of many oldbies. The community was awesome back then, there are countless threads on these forums about that subject. But again, there had to be something good about EL then to keep the community here.

Edited March 11, 2005 by Aisllinn

[Ruln]

Kami unsure of himself?

 

People who are sure of themselves debate the merits of their points of view. They do not simply contridict and personally attack others.

 

Fundamentally it seems like there is discontent with the community and viability of EL now as compared to back in the good old days. I'll suggest to you that attacking somebody who has devoted hundreds of hours to learning and playing the game over the past two months for expressing an opinion counter to your own does not help this situation. In fact it is far more harmful then MM or any other aspect of the game could ever be.

 

I've also put my money where my mouth is by making a donation and intended to do so regularly in the future. Being attacked in a very immature manner is starting to make me question continuing to do so in the future.

 

So if you think you are helping to solve problems here you are very much mistaken. This sort of behaviour is part of the problem.

 

And I'd like to thank Highwarlord for expressing an opinion counter to the one I expressed earlier and doing so in a mature, informative and CONSTRUCTIVE manner.

 

EL is trying to grow up. It seems to me that some of its long time users and friends need to do the same.

[Aislinn]

Kami has offered pages and pages of the merits of his point of view. Don't get me wrong here, lol, I don't agree with him much. But do a search, you will see he is very involved.

 

You are attacking some people who have put in a year's and then some worth of game experience into EL. Where was that hypocrite page in the dictionary? Because it's worded politely doesn't make it any less of an attack.

 

There is a page on the EL site with a list of donators on it. Check it out!

 

As to growing up, I don't think defending our opinions is childish. Don't mistake passion and enthusiasm for childishness. Why do you think some people did stay this long?

 

This thread is about mm perk. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but as I said before, you can't say one thing is better than another if you haven't experienced the other. We have played both ways, you have not.

[Ruln]

You are attacking some people who have put in a year's and then some worth of game experience into EL.

 

I'm attacking nobody. I'm defending myself. Go back and read carefully. I stated my opinion on the topic of MM and I was personally attacked. Thats where this started. I've done my best not to respond in kind, though I have rightfully pointed out that it is immature and counter productive to attack the messenger and not the message.

 

As to growing up, I don't think defending our opinions is childish.

 

I never said it was. Defending your opinions is not a problem. I'll say it one more time, its the methods you use that are an issue. Six year olds debate this way. Adults shouldn't.

 

you can't say one thing is better than another if you haven't experienced the other.

 

Yes I can, and I have. Its up to you to convince me I'm wrong.

 

We have played both ways, you have not.

 

I didn't start out with MM. I got it because I figured I'd enjoy the game more with it. And I have. Thats the data I'm operating off of at this point.

 

Good communities are inclusive and supportive. They do not ostracize new comers.

[Malaclypse]

Imo, if the MM perk gets removed the same must be true for the cape. We could reuse the green cape for something different, as most people like the green colour very much. But if we remove the perk and leave the cape, we don't solve anything, even if they capes break, as there are so much capes already in the game, that virtually any character can have its own. And they aren't really rare. As long as something get's dropped by monsters it will never be really rare, as there will be a possibly infinite supply of items in the long time. Just fight enough monsters and you will ever succeed in getting one ore more capes. So, if we remove the perk, but not the cape, this will be another big advantage for fighters and another big disadvantage for non-fighters. The fighters can easily slay thousands of monsters (and they will of course, that's why they play this game) until they finally get the cape, while the non-fighters will be enforced to pay the prices for those capes, the fighters decide.

 

One of my chars (Celine) has the MM perk and I greatly enjoy having it. Loosing it without an adequate alternative would greatly harm me. Emeralds would be easy even without the perk. It's a bit of a challenge to avoid the few gobs, skellies and orcs on the way to the (safe) harvest spot, but it's not impossible. But rubies and diamonds would be impossible without someones else helping. A temporary alternative, like it was suggested by some people, would be just fine for this from my point of view. For fighters, I personally do not see the point where it is even useful. Therefore Malaclypse doesn't have the perk and also doesn't use the cape. Imho, if a fighter is not able to find a way to handle or avoid particular monsters, then s/he has chosen the wrong trade.

 

<OT>

I don't see that the community was better 'back in the old days'. When I started playing, a little more than a year ago, the community imho sucked. It consists of a bunch of players that band together, and were not willing to help any newbies. Only two people, I met, were open minded in this time. One guy, Mandos, helped me a lot back in those days, but the rest of his guild, rather they proclaimed to be newbie friendly and newbie helping, had a very bad, ignorant and arrogant attitude, at least the way I experienced it. The other person was Platyna...

 

Second, I didn't feel of having earned something great, when I finally reached level 30 in combat skill (no I didn't like to do potion like anybody else) and was able to wear the cloak (Was there even a cloak for combat skill? I can't fully remember). The way there consists only of a bit of imho boring power leveling, and my feeling had more of a finally reached this stupid target, that anybody says is so important, than being proud of it.

 

So from my point of the view, the old days weren't even better. It was imho much harder to get friends, as most of the people were so deep within their guild matters, that they even won't bother with the issues of any newbie and didn't want to meet any new people. This was even true for guilds, that had the newbie friendly and helping sign on their flags.

</OT>

[swisstest]

you can't say one thing is better than another if you haven't experienced the other.

 

Yes I can, and I have. Its up to you to convince me I'm wrong.

I like this line... it sums up everything nicely...

 

In reply I'll say that the MM perk is fine as it is, and you've done nothing to convince me otherwise... actually all you've done here is complain that someone stole your death bag. Which, in and of itself, is faulty reasoning. They did not steal anything, you died... the items were dropped from your inventory as a punishment for death, to be picked up by whoever happened upon it.

 

 

As for my data, I only need 1 peice of information.... *points at member number* I'd say that qualifies me as an expert as far as dying goes...

 

Hmm, how about a counter point, with death, you drop items, someone else gets them causing you to buy new items, thus helping the economy... Perhaps we should change the drop rate to 100% of items in your inventory instead, let the bag jumpers really get their money's worth...

 

Convince me I'm wrong...

 

Edit: After re-reading most of the post, I've decided I now see what the true problem is... you are all confusing the typical behaviour of a typical NOOB (not newb, there's a difference, trust me) with the slang term we use: BAGJUMPER.

 

Taking someone's death bag, while perfectly legal, is NOOBish to most of us, the vast majority see it as only common courtesy to return lost items of our fallen commrads, or at least to sit the bag while they return. However, there are those who do not follow this particular custom... they choose however the "Finders Keepers" ethos, while childish and annoying, it is there right.

 

A BAGJUMPER however is the person who lurks around storages or harvesting areas waiting for a player to lag out to the grue or be transported elsewhere by mama nature, only to pounce on the victims bag full of whatevers... this too, while annoying and childish, is legal... but really, removing MM wouldn't help that now would it?

 

 

2 cents,

Evil Scorpio

Edited March 11, 2005 by Swiss

[Kami]

Ruln, I won’t even dignify any of that by quoting you but I will say this. Thank you for Proving my point and confirming my impression of you. I have done a deal of pointing out your Ignor- Um, …Arrogance but I hardly say I have “Attacked†you. Besides, You’ve done a better job of proving your own arrogance then I could have.

 

Also, This is a Debate, not an Argument. While I have constantly pointed out flaw after flaw in your “Arguementâ€, you have, each time, come back with a response like “I know more then you because I‘ve older then you“, or “You’re acting like a Childâ€. You’re problem is that you are the one who can’t stand being contradicted. Whenever anyone disagrees with you, you lash back at them (though very Politely) saying that they don’t know what their talking about and are only arguing with you. You say we’re acting like 6 year olds but you’re acting the way a Child does when he doesn’t get his way.

 

Yes I can, and I have. Its up to you to convince me I'm wrong.

And I agree, I love this. This sums up your whole point quite clearly. Allow ME to Translate:

 

“Who cares about the facts. I’m Right and You’re Wrong because I say so, so quit arguing with me.â€

 

Oh, BTW. I’m not a Programmer by trade though I am well experienced and Knowledgeable in the Subject yet that is not from whence I draw my sense of Logic. I am a Philosopher in Heart and Mind, with a good degree of Common Sense and, like everything, I draw from Personal Experience and a good amount of Forethought.

 

 

Malaclypse, I can see where you might have a negative point of view of the old Game.

I can only say I don’t share it. I can say I had a fairly enjoyable experience. When I started out, after the first two days of killing Rabbits, I met a very nice Player (I forget his/her name) who helped me out greatly, first by showing me the VOTD Graveyard and then by giving my 2000 GC upfront to kill Rabbits for him. If it wasn’t for him, I would have been still killing Rabbits at IP docks for another week, still fearing the Garg to even get on the boat. It wasn’t so bad for me at least. In fact, the first Time I had a bad experience was when, after buying my brand new Steel Shield, I walked into Kilaran and NeXt Jumped me and wouldn’t give it back, although I asked him nicely. But, I’m not one to hold grudges.

 

Maybe you had a bad experience, I won’t doubt that. But It’s all about perception! The game use to have it’s fine points that we really liked and all we’re saying is that it has lost some of them.

 

 

Swiss, I won’t say I’d like that. Then again, I don’t like much of the PK system as is but losing 100% is a little drastic. Although, with the new Rolstal Stone, the game might now be open to it. Of course, all the newbies getting killed by Bees won’t like it. The we'll have to raise the Newbie Drop Level from 7-8 to like 15-20. Then, all newbies are going to start scrambling to get their hands on a R. stone. Might hurt the economy though.