Linux

[crusadingknight]

Example number 2: Installing a program

 

Windows:

- Download

- Double click

- Use program

 

Linux:

- Download

- tar xzvf file

- configure, make. Start praying now.

- I only need 398724932 libs more.

- Download libs

- tar xzvf file

- configure, make. Start praying now.

- Infinite loop

 

really last time I checked all I had to do was

emerge (program name here)

or rpm/yum. Sadez, what are you using, SLS? If so, you should be comparing it to DOS, not windows.

[Specter]

or rpm/yum. Sadez, what are you using, SLS? If so, you should be comparing it to DOS, not windows. tongue.gif

dont forget apt-get

[Starman_Omega]

why are we still fighting about linux and windows? Aerowind needs our help, and that's help i can't help him with...so you need to help him

[Specter]

my advice install a better distro...as I said before

[Leeloo]

Sadez... Are you trolling? Because I don't really believe you are that stupid.

 

The directions you gave were not for installing a program on Linux, that was for compiling a program. Now, don't try to claim it's easier to compile a program on Windows.

 

1. Obtain source code.

2. Find a different hiding place before the FBI knocks your door (See HL2 and W2k )

3. Work a few months

4. Buy Visual C++

 

Or you could get DevC++ or Cygwin, cheaper but not much easier, and just mentioning anything gcc-based indicates that Linux has already won.

 

As for the pen drive, I don't have one of those, but I know that if your kernel lacks SCSI support, you were the one who disabled it. I haven't seen a distro that comes without SCSI support since the days of slackware floppies. Now, to compare, you would need to manually remove the Windows drivers for the pen drive too. Nothing deltree can't handle Or be creative with regedit...

 

Yes I believe what I'm saying. I don't claim that Linux is perfect, I started with saying that if Linux is too hard to use then get a Mac. I claim that Windows is not easy to use, and until now I haven't yet met a person who claimed differently, who could solve my problems:

 

1. I have a toolbar at the top of the screen. It is set to always on top and autohide. But, when I use it to start a program (all the programs I use often are there), it does auto-hide at first, but when I close that program it appears without moving the mouse near it. Then I have to disable autohide and enable it again to make it autohide. This is in XP, in Win2000 it worked.

 

2. On the same toolbar I have added the toolbar named "desktop", because I need to be able to easily right click on "my computer" or "network neighbourhood". But it has 5 icons, two of which are Internet Explorer and My Documents. I can right click on those two and select delete. I can disable them with tweakui. But the next time I look, they are back. Again XP, not sure if it worked in Win2000.

 

3. This is the hard one. My 2.6 GHz XP machine at work is slower than my old 600 MHz Linux machine at home ever was. Every Windows lover claims that it's because I'm doing wrong. So, tell me how to get that 2.6 GHz machine to actually perform at the speed that Windows people claim it can. It should be easy, right? Windows is supposed to be user-friendly...

 

Each of those problems are the reason for lots of wasted time at work. Show me how easy it is.

 

Until now, people claiming that Windows is user-friendly have been just as believable as people who claim there is a god. They believe so, but they can't prove it.

[Specter]

bravo

 

That was what I was trying to say but just couldnt seem to find the words

 

Bravo

[Placid]

Your solution to problem #2:

Press WindowsKey+M

To restore the windows, use WindowsKey+Shift+M

 

Enjoy

[Lachesis]

Installing a Program on Windows (XP):

 

1. Insert CD

2. Follow the instructions of autorun

3. Reboot

4. Realize that links were placed in the admin user directories instead of default user directories. Copy them to the correct location.

5. Have the luck to guess that they still dont appear in the other users start menu because the user permissions are wrong.

6. Waste hours on searching the Windows Help for information on how to change access permissions on files. Go insane about the suggestion to "move the files into the shared documents folder".

7. Jump for joy when having found "windows tools for advanced users" on MS website -- of course only with the generous help of google.

8. Make a lucky guess about the command name for changing access control lists (cacls). Thank god that you already knew the name of the shell (cmd) and that someone felt free to implement command completion into it.

9. Figure out how to use it and change the file permissions. Forget the /E option and delete the ACL. Work hard to reconstruct it.

 

Just for your joy I don't prefer linux because anything might be easier with it -- in fact experience showed me that it isn't much of a difference in the average. I like that if something goes wrong, you can repair it. Maybe you have to get some knowledge first, but you arent limited to "reinstall windows and hope" or "get the newest drivers and hope". Ok, Unless you are using an NVidia video card

[Sadez]

Sadez... Are you trolling? Because I don't really believe you are that stupid.

The directions you gave were not for installing a program on Linux, that was for compiling a program. Now, don't try to claim it's easier to compile a program on Windows.

1. Obtain source code.

2. Find a different hiding place before the FBI knocks your door (See HL2 and W2k )

3. Work a few months

4. Buy Visual C++

Or you could get DevC++ or Cygwin, cheaper but not much easier, and just mentioning anything gcc-based indicates that Linux has already won.

As for the pen drive, I don't have one of those, but I know that if your kernel lacks SCSI support, you were the one who disabled it. I haven't seen a distro that comes without SCSI support since the days of slackware floppies. Now, to compare, you would need to manually remove the Windows drivers for the pen drive too. Nothing deltree can't handle Or be creative with regedit...

 

I'm not trying to claim that it's easier to compile a program on windows.

The problem is that to install many things on Linux you are forced to compile.

Reasons could be many, but even when you are not required to compile much more user interaction will be needed in Linux than in Windows.

The pen drive is just an example, but there are many things that will force you to recompile the kernel: from a new kernel(this is prety obvious ) new hardware like wifi cards, adsl usb modems, or simply because you dont like the default options. You can't expect a computer iliterate person to recompile the kernel, properly choose what partitions he should create, configure a boot loader or even more easy things like using mount, etc.

And about VisualC++ Microsoft offers free versions.

 

Yes I believe what I'm saying. I don't claim that Linux is perfect, I started with saying that if Linux is too hard to use then get a Mac. I claim that Windows is not easy to use, and until now I haven't yet met a person who claimed differently, who could solve my problems:

 

1. I have a toolbar at the top of the screen. It is set to always on top and autohide. But, when I use it to start a program (all the programs I use often are there), it does auto-hide at first, but when I close that program it appears without moving the mouse near it. Then I have to disable autohide and enable it again to make it autohide. This is in XP, in Win2000 it worked.

 

2. On the same toolbar I have added the toolbar named "desktop", because I need to be able to easily right click on "my computer" or "network neighbourhood". But it has 5 icons, two of which are Internet Explorer and My Documents. I can right click on those two and select delete. I can disable them with tweakui. But the next time I look, they are back. Again XP, not sure if it worked in Win2000.

 

Here you are talking about specific problems you have and have nothing to do with the dificulty of using Windows.

 

 

3. This is the hard one. My 2.6 GHz XP machine at work is slower than my old 600 MHz Linux machine at home ever was. Every Windows lover claims that it's because I'm doing wrong. So, tell me how to get that 2.6 GHz machine to actually perform at the speed that Windows people claim it can. It should be easy, right? Windows is supposed to be user-friendly...

 

I never used XP but anyways I find that hard to believe. If you disable that new eye hurting green and blue UI and all the useless system services it has by default you may have some speed increases, but that is comparable to disabling sshd or many other things that come by default in a Linux instalation.

Also note I'm only comparing the dificulty of using it from a newbie point of view and I'm not discussing what operative system is more secure, stable, cheap, fast, etc

 

And now thanks to our useless discussions Aerowind is not being helped...

[Annastina]

Aerowind, can you give us some more details, please? Like what kind of monitor/video card you have? Your computer specs?

 

Anyway, as for the black screen, are you booting from the install CD?

 

Have you run a MD5 checksum on it, to make sure it is not corrupted? (Or is this a store bought Novell Desktop Linux? Or evaluation?)

 

Do you have an LCD monitor? (Sometimes the installation program needs to be set in text mode instead of graphical mode, if the LCD monitor isn't immediately recognized.)

 

Lachesis, you left out fumbling with typing 36 characters long serial # (with all the tabs), phone call to microsoft to activate product.

 

 

Pax.

[Leeloo]

Your solution to problem #2:

Press WindowsKey+M

To restore the windows, use WindowsKey+Shift+M

 

That's not a solution, that's a workaround. Which in this case would also require righ-click on the desktop and enable those ugly icons, and afterwards right-click on the desktop and get rid of those ugly icons. User-friendlyness does not include dictating how I work. Dictators are not user-friendly

 

Sadez... Are you trolling? Because I don't really believe you are that stupid.

The directions you gave were not for installing a program on Linux, that was for compiling a program. Now, don't try to claim it's easier to compile a program on Windows.

1. Obtain source code.

2. Find a different hiding place before the FBI knocks your door (See HL2 and W2k )

3. Work a few months

4. Buy Visual C++

Or you could get DevC++ or Cygwin, cheaper but not much easier, and just mentioning anything gcc-based indicates that Linux has already won.

As for the pen drive, I don't have one of those, but I know that if your kernel lacks SCSI support, you were the one who disabled it. I haven't seen a distro that comes without SCSI support since the days of slackware floppies. Now, to compare, you would need to manually remove the Windows drivers for the pen drive too. Nothing deltree can't handle Or be creative with regedit...

 

I'm not trying to claim that it's easier to compile a program on windows.

The problem is that to install many things on Linux you are forced to compile.

Reasons could be many, but even when you are not required to compile much more user interaction will be needed in Linux than in Windows.

 

No, you would just apt-get them (there's a graphical tool for that), or start the .run file if it's a game. If you want to install programs that are still in development, and not yet released, yes, you'll have to compile them. How to I install a program that's not yet released on Windows? I have to write it myself, because it's not possible to get the source and compile it.

 

Installing released programs is easier on Linux. Installing not yet released programs is mostly impossible on Windows (just try installing Word 2007, and you'll see).

 

The pen drive is just an example, but there are many things that will force you to recompile the kernel: from a new kernel(this is prety obvious ) new hardware like wifi cards, adsl usb modems, or simply because you dont like the default options. You can't expect a computer iliterate person to recompile the kernel, properly choose what partitions he should create, configure a boot loader or even more easy things like using mount, etc.

 

A new kernel? Yet again you choose to compile it, instead of apt-get'ing it. How do you do that on Windows? Compile your own kernel32.dll instead of going to Windows Update? You can't. Another bogus example. And recompiling it to enable a driver that was enabled in the distro kernel, but you disabled yourself does still not count.

 

Come'on, "because you don't like the default options"? So, how to I compile kernel32.exe without support for AMD Processors? Yes, on Linux it requires a kernel compile. On Windows it requires access to the most secure vault in Redmond, the one that contains the Windows source.

 

Here you are talking about specific problems you have and have nothing to do with the dificulty of using Windows

 

Those are called examples. Examples to prove how hard Windows is to use. And I am serious, when I say: "Don't claim that Windows is easy to use if you can't tell me how to use it". That includes these three examples. You didn't. So, believing when you say Windows is easy to use is just like believing when the priest says some rather unrealistic stuff about a guy who died 2000 years ago.

 

never used XP but anyways I find that hard to believe. If you disable that new eye hurting green and blue UI and all the useless system services it has by default you may have some speed increases, but that is comparable to disabling sshd or many other things that come by default in a Linux instalation.

Also note I'm only comparing the dificulty of using it from a newbie point of view and I'm not discussing what operative system is more secure, stable, cheap, fast, etc

 

But if it's so damn hard to make it work at a reasonable speed, how can you claim it's easy to use from a newbie point of view? Because newbies accept that computers are slow and confusing, and that making them do what the user wants is impossible? I haven't yet found out how to make it faster, how would a newbie be able to? As for the fancy UI, I hate blue, the green looks sick, and the white one is too bright. I'm using the good old rectangular look, so that can't be the reason. I have been disabling services once, I think I disabled so many that I almost killed the system But it didn't make it fast. I even uninstalled the corporate antivirus because that made it even slower (almost to the point of running backwards). Stupid antivirus gives more problems than virusses anyway, but that's a completely different discussion

Edited March 1, 2005 by Leeloo

[Entropy]

How to set the sound volume

Windows:

Click on the speaker icon in the systray.

Adjust the desired sound volume

Close the window

 

Linux:

Click on the sound mixer application you have depending on the distribution, desktop manager, etc.

Adjust the desired sound levels

Close the window

[...]

Restart computer

Click on the sound mixer application you have depending on the distribution, desktop manager, etc.

Adjust the desired sound levels

Close the window

Open a browser window

Start looking on google for why the sound settings are not saved at restart

Open a console prompt

Go to /etc/init.d

Find alsa

Start toying with the script

Give up in frustration

[Entropy]

Change screen resolution to 1280x800

 

Windows:

Right clcik on the desktop

Properties

Settings

Change resolution

 

Linux:

Try to find the option to do that in your desktop manager

Give up

Open browser

Search on google

Open console window

Edit Xconfig (or whatever name it has on your distro)

Add the mode in the screen section

Pray that it works.

Restart Xwindows

Open browser

Open console

Edit xconfig again, and add the ModLine stuff you find on the net

Restart X

Hopefully by now it works.

[Leeloo]

How to change sound volume (Linux and Windows): Stretch arm, grab volume knob, turn right for louder or left for quiter. Why make it so hard for yourself?

 

How to change resolution on Linux: <Ctrl>+<Alt>+<+> or <Ctrl>+<Alt>+<-> (+/- on the numeric keypad). Of course assuming that you already have your graphics drivers and screen set up correctly.

 

Don't compare a correctly setup Windows machine with a Linux machine that is not setup. Either compare with both set up correctly, or with both not yet set up.

 

Btw, Linux has had DDC working for the last couple of years, meaning that you don't need to put screen info in xorg.conf or xf86config. If there isn't any info there, it will use the information that the screen provides, but if you already have information there, it will override whatever the screen says. So, if you have told X that your screen cannot do 1280x1024, it will not do it no matter that the screen says it can. So, you told (probably during install) X that you had a 1024x768 screen, and then you had to correct that mistake later. Do the same thing on Windows (use the wrong .INF file), and you won't get the 1280x1024 choice either.

 

On the other hand Windows doesn't even have a working DDC yet, at least not in XP. I am almost sure that it did have it in Windows 95, but apparently there are still things they can't get working on an NT-based kernel.

[Entropy]

How to change sound volume (Linux and Windows): Stretch arm, grab volume knob, turn right for louder or left for quiter. Why make it so hard for yourself?

That would work nicely assuming that:

1. You DO have a volume knob (my laptop doesn't, and many other laptops do't).

2. The back of the computer is accessible (the soundcards with volume knobs have it in the back of the computer).

 

Besides, by default, the headphones output is muted, so I have to turn it on each time I restart my computer.

 

How to change resolution on Linux: <Ctrl>+<Alt>+<+> or <Ctrl>+<Alt>+<-> (+/- on the numeric keypad). Of course assuming that you already have your graphics drivers and screen set up correctly.

Doesn't work in most of the laptops, and it also won't work if the video mode is NOT preset in xconfig. (the modline thingy). Most of the video modes ARE preset, but I have a widescreen laptop, which has some somewhat unstandard video modes, such as 1280x800, and those modes HAVE to be manually placed there, by editing xconfig.

[Leeloo]

Normally the volume knob is on the speakers, not on the sound card. And who wants to listen to anything on laptop speakers, they're about as good as the good old PC speaker (you know, the one that goes beep after POST), and most headphones meant for computer use have volume buttons anyway.

 

Besides, the volume button in XMMS works, even when it's other programs that are playing

 

As for the modelines, try putting #'s in front of UseModes, HorizSync and VertRefresh. That way, DDC will take care of it, works fine with my flat screen. But you're right, it won't work you X config is not set up correctly, just like it won't work in Windows if you forgot to install the .INF file with the correct modes.

[Grum]

That way, DDC will take care of it

Will not. Really, those widescreen laptops are a pain to set up. I have one myself, and naturally the first thing I tried when the distro-generated X config file didn't work was to remove every generated modeline and see if X itself would handle it. No way.

[Annastina]

Well, if we are going to debate Windows versus Linux, we need to realize that even if we start with fresh installs of both, the windows user will have to re-install fresh, while the Linux user probably can go years running whichever distro.

 

Assuming fresh installs of both.

 

How to set the sound volume

 

Windows:

Click "Start" > Settings > Control Panel

Click "Sound and Audio Devices Properties.

Check "Place volume Icon on taskbar"

Close the window.

Close "Sound and Audio Devices Properties." window.

Right click speaker icon in system tray.

Choose open volume control.

Adjust volume.

 

If no device was found, look for driver disc that came with computer... or look on Internet.

 

Linux (Gnome):

Right click Panel

Select add to panel (at the top)

Choose volume control

Close Window.

Right click Speaker Icon, choose "Unlock"

Drag Icon where you want on the panel.

Right click Speaker Icon, choose Lock.

Right click Speaker Icon

Unmute start unmuting all the checkboxes, left to right until you get to PCM

If any sliders are slid all the way to bottom. Uncheck the lock checkmark.

Adjust volume

 

If no audio device was found, download alsa-lib from wherever you download packages/source for distro. If that isn't the probem, go to soundcard vendor's website.

 

Both Linux and Windows have hardware compatibilty guides. XP is crippled by NT's famous lack of drivers, Linux is hurt by hardware vendor's choosing not top provide Linux drivers.

 

These steps will be repeated for windows user, because all windows installations eventually die from spyware, viruses (where are my mp3s and porn?), trojans, instability, etc. A careful user may prolong this time, but it is inevitable.

 

Linux user in same amount of time has no need to to reinstall Linux, unless the kernal was badly bungled, perhaps. But this is unlikely because Linux is so very hard to break.

 

What a Windows user has is Convenience at the cost of Power.

A Linux user has Power, but at the cost of convenience.

 

Regarding XMMS, I strongly suggest using the xmms-morestate plugin. It remembers its own volume setting, in spite of system volume control settings.

 

Anyway, that is just my two cents, but these debates can go forever. Use whatever you feel comfortable with.

 

 

 

Pax.

Edited March 1, 2005 by Annastina

[Entropy]

Normally the volume knob is on the speakers, not on the sound card. And who wants to listen to anything on laptop speakers, they're about as good as the good old PC speaker (you know, the one that goes beep after POST), and most headphones meant for computer use have volume buttons anyway.

I use headphones most of the time, and I have relatively expensive headphones (sony and Philips). They are about 10-15 USD, so we are not talking about cheap "made in China" shit. And they do not have any potentiometer on them.

 

Besides, the volume button in XMMS works, even when it's other programs that are playing

Can XMMS unmute stuff?

My problem is that the sound settings and unmuting stuff is NOT saved permanently.

 

As for the modelines, try putting #'s in front of UseModes, HorizSync and VertRefresh. That way, DDC will take care of it, works fine with my flat screen. But you're right, it won't work you X config is not set up correctly, just like it won't work in Windows if you forgot to install the .INF file with the correct modes.

It is not about comemnting out video modes you don't have, it's about ADDING video modes that there are not in the X config file in the first place.

[Annastina]

I realize both of you, Ent and Leeloo, know what you are doing, moreso than I do. I learn something new about Linux everyday. Compared to either of you, I am probably a noob. I don't know if this will help. But there are some common mistakes I know I have made. Silly little things, I get a new kernal, then forget my video driver must be re-installed. I call them "blonde" moments - j/k.

 

I think with the 2.6.10 kernel, however there are two settings which should be muted in alsamixer, if that is what you are using. Headphone jack sense and Line jack sense. I am always forgetting myself, and turning them on. Anyway, I just run alsamixer from a terminal. Using right/left arrows and hit M when they are selected. For some reason, if they aren't I won't have sound. And any changes I make with them enabled won't "stick", because they are wrong. I don't know if it is a kernal bug, or some kind of compatability thing.

 

Also, I think kmix and alsamixer can conflict with each other, if both are somehow running.

 

As for the video thing, I had to exit X and run the NVidia installer, twice, before it finally gave me all my video options. Not saying this applies in your case, however.

 

XMMS ignores whatever sound settings I have, including mute,with the morestate plug-in. Won't otherwise change anything else about the system, so it won't un-mute system-wide, AFAIK.

 

 

Pax

[rebootedrock]

I have win xp home/suse 9.1 on my laptop at home (in essence my computer)

and use suse 9.1 at school,

 

windows, I grew up on it, so I know everything about win 98, and win xp isnt too hard once you understand the basic things.

 

Linux, it seems much more stable, i LOVE ctrl+alt+f1-6, the ability to fix crashing programs is nice from command line point of view. (heh i miss being able to push ctrl+alt+del like 6 times and restart windows, the extra 4 pushes ensures it closes. rofl

 

But, having the ability to play more than like 20 games without using wine or crossover to play them, is NICE.

 

If not for program incompatability, and the un equaled difficulty in installing ANYTHING AT ALL, I might like linux.

 

Did I mention it's near impossible to install anything on linux? rofl

 

Sayonara.

[Starman_Omega]

why is everyone debating linux and windows?

 

aero why not just get a windows program, sounds like your having trouble with linux.

[Leeloo]

Besides, the volume button in XMMS works, even when it's other programs that are playing

Can XMMS unmute stuff?

 

I believe you asked about volume, not unmuting. Unmuting should be done by the startup scripts automagically, if not, blame your distro.

 

My problem is that the sound settings and unmuting stuff is NOT saved permanently.

 

Did you ask it to? Just because Windows has the idea that if yesterday was tuesday, today has to be tuesday too doesn't mean that all OS'es work like that. If you change a runtime setting, it's only going to stay changed untill the system is not running anymore.

 

As for the modelines, try putting #'s in front of UseModes, HorizSync and VertRefresh. That way, DDC will take care of it, works fine with my flat screen. But you're right, it won't work you X config is not set up correctly, just like it won't work in Windows if you forgot to install the .INF file with the correct modes.

It is not about comemnting out video modes you don't have, it's about ADDING video modes that there are not in the X config file in the first place.

 

And of course adding them is easier in Windows? Control panel won't even show them until you add them. Now, if you buy a "designed for Microsoft Windows" screen, there is an .INF file that does it all for you, but don't blame Linux for buying a desgined for Windows screen.

 

But, having the ability to play more than like 20 games without using wine or crossover to play them, is NICE.

I can have that too, if I could find that many games I like. No Wine needed. Do not underestimate the power of...

Edited March 2, 2005 by Leeloo

[Placid]

 

Errr....so...Aero....hows the distro going?

[Specter]

In linux to save your sound settings use alsactl it will restore the sound state upon boot

Edited March 2, 2005 by Specter