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Ore spawns

Would you like to have Ore spawns, instead of static ore?  

161 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to have Ore spawns, instead of static ore?

    • Yes, Ore spawns!
      73
    • No, keep it as it is, in static locations!
      88


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resources placed for aesthetic reasons probably woudln't move. it'd be for the ore since none are placed for aesthetic reasons taht i know of(unless they're on a map that's not harvestable).

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:lol: "Diamond just hit a teleport nexus and so it departed us"

 

:) Actually, for things like flowers, and I assume crystals, there would still be bushes and the stalagmite sticking out from the floor. The crystals would be little pieces growing off the main stalk, and flowers would be, well, flowers, growing on the bushes, or on the stalks (depends on what kind of flowers). So there would really be no change to the functional map. Same thing for ores... Currently there are *areas* in the caves where several piles of ore are harvested. The change would be that these piles would be spread over a larger area, and they would disappear as they get mined out.

 

:huh: Yes, this limits how much ore is sitting in the cave, so you can't just mine 10k iron in an hour of repetitive mouse motion. No, you will not have to do laps around the cave to find that one piece of iron ore, only to find six other people finishing it off as you get there. Unless there are already 6 people in the iron ore spawn area. In which case you have to go to another iron ore spawn point. Or compete with 6 people. Or go whack foxes for 8gc a fur.

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I think instead of moving the damn ore, just limit it. Each harvest point only has 5000 or whatever in it. With a regen rate of like 1 every minute. If it's constantly harvested, it'll be drained. The popular ones wouldn't be as popular cause everyone would keep them at a constant drain. You'd see people trying to find alternative locations. That's a good thing, because after a while, people would start doing other activities while waiting for the harvest point to regenerate. After all, the lilacs with only 5000 would die out REAL quick with 8 people harvesting 200 each in a minute.

 

Thought, Comments, Suggestions, Flames Always Welcome,

Goliath

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Summary So Far:

 

Proposed Idea:

 

- Ore will spawn randomly around the cave/map. The number of ore veins will be adjusted to the size of the map. (eg. Crystal Caves can have as many as 50-100 spawns). Each vein spawned will have a varying amount of ore, between 50-500 harvests. When a vein is depleted, another one will immediately spawn somewhere else (undecided as yet). Most probably, ores of a certain type will spawn in certain areas (also undecided as yet). This model can be extended to flowers and other harvestable things (player opinions wanted).

 

Issues Raised:

 

- Realism: Having depleting resources is realistic. However, should this game be that realistic? Having randomly reappearing ore veins is unrealistic. Is that a necessary sacrifice?

 

- Fun Factor: Is hunting for new ore veins fun? Or is sitting in one spot, bagging, and chatting more fun? Some people think that it will add to the fun when you have to search for the items, some people think it's a hassle. This will probably relate back to the different types of players playing this game. Will it also cause fighting over resources among the current friendly harvesting community?

 

- Raw Materials Needed: Will this cause a decrease in the supply of raw materials, and what would that do to the other trades, like alch and manu? (An example brought up was the Iron Bar). Will the item requirements decrease? Roja has said "most likely, for some". How will the harvest cap be affected?

 

- Cave Maps: If the random ore veins get implemented, it would be nice to have maps of the caves. This has been agreed to by Roja.

 

- Game Balance: This would likely make the "Maker" skills a lot more difficult than the "Fighter" skills to develop. How will the game developers account for this? Also, will this result in the problem of bagging being shifted to storages instead, crowding them?

 

- Testing Needed: Almost all have agreed that it would be important to have extensive testing first on the test server.

 

- Newbies: Implementing the same system for flowers may be difficult for newbies and completely mess up the Harvesting Tutorial given by the NPC.

 

 

 

My own personal opinion would be to go for it, but implement it at the same time as all the other systems come in. They're right - it would probably harm the Making professions a lot unless the formulae are changed. But since we're going to change a lot of formulae with the new systems anyway, we might as well do it then. It also takes into account Enlia's issue about the crowded storage bagging problems, as well as the Harvest Tutorial thing. There's no way to implement anything that will please everybody in the realism and fun factor departments, so just have to take both the good with the bad.

 

The real issue that needs further thought is the game balance issue, though. If ore immediately spawns within a short distance away from the depleted vein, what's the point? It doesn't do much to affect the economy, except maybe forcing players to move around a bit more. Spawn timings, numbers, and placings have to be well-thought-out. That's the gist of what I'm saying. You can't please everybody, so go with what is best for the game.

 

-Lyn-

Edited by Lyanna

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I voted no because I've seen this type of system in another game and the problems caused by people arguing over "owning" the spawns as well as the total frustration of finding a spawn hitting it and finding only 1 or 2 ore left then having to search all over again.

 

Time

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Thought: then mining would still be sit and wait. Comment: No! I don't want that at all. But that's just me and in addition, I guess you already knew my opinion :)

 

P.S. Please note that flames are only welcome in flames forum.

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people arguing over "owning" the spawns

That's already a problem with monster spawns. However, if you want resources to be limited, you won't be able to avoid this except if you limit in any manner the amount that one character can harvest. IMHO it is OK that people occupy spawns. If we want a market, then there need to be some buyers. If there are too many (place word for person with mining profession here), of course they will get into trouble getting their income, and they should. That's the way economy works.

the total frustration of finding a spawn hitting it and finding only 1 or 2 ore left then having to search all over again.

Solution is simple: the spawns could show the amount that is left. Either by changing their appearance or by displaying a number/bar above it, just like material points of animals. Or even both. Maybe they could even restore slowly so that there won't be 1-unit-veins that will never be harvested.

 

Sincerely yours

Lachesis

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Small issue to note:

 

Presently it is considerate for people around a harvesting spot (i.e. the Portland fruit stand) to sit down so that others can easily click on the fruit as well. If there will be limited quantity veins, people will be on the go and highly reluctant to sit down, making it even harder for others to share in those veins.

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ummm wouldnt the highest lvl harvester get mostly all the ore at a time soooooo then that means its like survile of the fitest and then u can never raise harvesting easily ever again im voting no

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Would it be possible to make it so that veins that are further away from the exits (deeper in the cave) have more ore than veins near the exits? So basicly the deeper you go into the cave the better chances you have of finding an ore vein that has enough ore for your needs.

 

The point with this would be that maybe the full time harvesters could occupy the deeper and darker places of the cave and people who are only quickly harvesting some ore can do so near the entrances.

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I think instead of moving the damn ore, just limit it. Each harvest point only has 5000 or whatever in it. With a regen rate of like 1 every minute. If it's constantly harvested, it'll be drained. The popular ones wouldn't be as popular cause everyone would keep them at a constant drain. You'd see people trying to find alternative locations. That's a good thing, because after a while, people would start doing other activities while waiting for the harvest point to regenerate. After all, the lilacs with only 5000 would die out REAL quick with 8 people harvesting 200 each in a minute.

 

Thought, Comments, Suggestions, Flames Always Welcome,

Goliath

:D Wow, that last one is more severe that what we're really planning. The proposed change would be likely spawning between 40 and 100 per minute in a given small area. So people complain that's limiting too much, and now someone wants 1 per minute! Ask, you can't please everyone. lol

 

:) The rest of your post is essentially what this proposed change is trying to accomplish. I don't know if people are afraid of 1-2 new iron spawning *somewhere in the entire crystal caves* every minute or what... So iron ore may be reduced to 100 per minute max. There's other iron deposits, and other ores you could mine that won't be a far walk away.

 

:) The idea of having the resources "depletable" is to give a visual cue to the player so they can see if there are any flowers avilable, or if there's ore to be mined. It's not going to be a chase or a Where's Wald-ore for resources.

 

:) Right now it takes 8 ore and 5 coal to make a steel bar. Tentatively, these could be cut in half, so you'd only need to harvest 4 ore and 2 coal to make a steel bar. The proposed change would make it easier on miners who do their own alchemy. It would also benefit all alchemists, since right now it takes 45 EMU to make a single steel bar, and it could drop below 20.

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Here's my 2 cents...

 

Pros

The harvest limit could be taken off or extremely raised

Some new contets could develop

Fun for some would be raised

Macroers extremely decreased

Easier for newbs (depends on how many spawns there are where they pop up etc.)

 

Cons

The issue of "my" spawn is raised

Fun for others (just getting the mineral for alch or manu) is down

More realicy (which can be good but lots complain about)

Harder for newbs (if same thing for flowers)

Edited by Aerowind

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@ Timeviewer: Yes, this is how it was in UO. The difference between the proposed change and how UO did it, is that you will be able to walk along a wall and see where the ore is. In UO, every tile of "rock" was minable, and depletable, but it didn't look any different. You just had to walk around clicking on all the rocks, which was a pain as well.

 

@ Elise: Not a bad idea, maybe something along those lines could be implemented.

 

@ Sonic808: Not at all. If a person wants to camp at one spot, they will only get the ore that appears close to them. If you really want to claim you "own" that spot, then you will sit there and chat while you wait for respawn. However, if you walk through a small section of a cave, (I'm thinking like 20 tiles along a wall), you will very likely find ore spawned, unless there are a crowd of people mining. In which case it has nothing to do with skill, it's all about overcrowding. Go hunt rabbits.

 

@ Kit: Primarily people are arguing against ore spawns, which will cover big areas and have no real asthetic value to the scenery, and aren't a good place to sit still. For things like the eternal bucket of fruit in Nordcarn, where apparently dozens of people can fill their packs with fruit from one little piece on a table, it would maybe need to be changed to different fruits spawning on the table. Not set in stone. If this is the case, then people could still sit around the table to harvest, but given that resources would no longer be unlimited, a crowd of people is a sign that you should look elsewhere, unless you want that sort of competition for fruit. I think your question will be answered in people no longer camping the bucket-o-froot.

 

To Lyanna, nice organized post. I'm not specifically responding @ you, just my thoughts on the issues as they pertain to the players:

 

1. I think realism is moot point here. This won't really make it any more or less 'real', it's just an attempt at a balancing mechanic.

 

2. Pro: It will not be as hard as chasing down rabbits to kill on a dialup modem, nor will it be Where's Waldore. Con: It will cause competition for the ore. People will not always like that. Unhappy people will need to look for more ore and be miffed, or go hunting. Also note, more new harvestables are coming in, to decrease competition, such as the new sticks and wood.

 

3. Theoretically: As difficulty for raw materials goes up, their value goes up; difficulty for alchemy goes down, causing bar and ess value not to increase. Materials for crafting, manu, and so forth shouldn't change much because of harvesting changes.

 

4. Yay Roja, for promising to make the maps in the next big release.

 

5. Lots of work need to go into the exact numbers and how they will affect balance. In any MMORPG, balance is the most important factor to keeping people happy.

 

6. I wholehertedly agree.

 

7. I did the terrible newbie quest, and I hated the coordinates part of it. I think that should be redesigned anyway. I'd be willing to offer suggestions in another thread, but only if the devteam is really going to change it around.

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ummm wouldnt the highest lvl harvester get mostly all the ore at a time soooooo then that means its like survile of the fitest and then u can never raise harvesting easily ever again im voting no

If the veins carry enough ore so that it cannot be taken in a time the beginner needs to harvest 1-2 ore: No. Multiple players will probably still be able to harvest from the same vein.

 

Sincerely yours

Lachesis

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I'd like to note that in my previous post, I'm suggesting that the harvesting spots not move. If they replenish automatically to a maximum amount constantly then you shouldn't need to move them, maybe incerease them...but that's unlikely too. Example:

 

You have 1 Iron Ore "spot" that you can click to harvest.

This "spot" has a maximum ore of 5000.

You have 1 person come mine it at a rate of 4 ore a minute.

The ore automatically regenerates 1 ore per minute.

So 1 person isn't likely to empty it any time soon.

However, you have 5 people harvesting at 4 ore/minute EACH.

The ore is still regenerating at 1 ore per minute.

There fore it's losing 19 ore/minute.

In popular ores, at that rate, in about 4 hours the ore would be depleted.

People would have to move on to find another ore.

But keep the ore locations STATIC.

By having the ore be depleteable(is that a word) You'll force people to have to move around SOME, without making them hunt for the harvest points.

If implemented in something like flowers, then the lilacs at VOTD would no longer be an economic nightmare of endless money coming in.

Example:

5000 Lilacs regenerating at 2 per minute

10 people harvesting at 12 per minute.

That's 118 lilacs a minute gone.

In 42 minutes it's drained

 

 

Of course the qty per harvest spot and the rate of regeneration would have to be tweaked. You would also have to reconsider whether it would be better to have several harvest spots in one area (like ores are now) or one harvest spot every so many screens on a map.

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I haven't read the whole thread yet. I say yes, do this.

 

Adding to Elise I would not only increase the amount for veins deeper in the cave, but increase it in general. We need to limit the resources in some way, but the limits suggested (50-500) is imho much too less. I think of this as of having mostly large veins, with several 10k or even 100k or even more of ore, that get empty more slowly (I think of a few in-game days) but also the respawning will take a little longer (~1 day up to a few days). I don't like the idea of having small spawns, where a player needs to switch the spot several times in one run.

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Hm, i think, i posted here some days again..

 

but again, my 2 cents:

 

JUST GO AND MAKE ENDING RESOURCES!

 

Because it is realistic.

 

Think about going onto a graveyard and get 5k of liliacs from 1 liliac in real life.

 

And think about going into a cave and mine something. Its always limited.

 

And that said by a guy, who is nearly 24/7 sitting near one diamond and got tons of diamonds in storage.

 

Having ending resources may even create now a new business: "Harvesters". Ppl who have fun to explore new resource spawns and sell the items.

 

And then there is a market for selling harvested items. Because other ppl wont have the time, or even wouldnt enjoy it to harvest items. Menaning, money will flow. Another way to withdraw money from rich players.

 

And its even not so easy to get, for example, 500 red snapdragons or so, if this resource is limited. Then you REALLY have to go to some maps and look for them.

 

Why not, fighters must hunt creatures, so why harvesters should *hunt* ressources?

 

I really think, that would be a really big big move forward for the economy system.

 

Oh, yes, and the 120 item limit per hour must be gone too.

 

And maybe some other limits too.

 

Only my 2 cents,

 

Piper

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Well, two things: people wont harvest 4 ore a minute but rather 12-20. Unless you seriously increase the delay again, which I would not encourage, as the search for the veins should replace the delay. Second: huge veins will keep everything as it is now: boring auto-harvest. Veins should be of a carefully chosen size, large enough so that you dont spend too much time on searching and multiple players can harvest from one vein, but small enough so that you won't get all the ore that you need from one harvest. I know that's not realistic, but it's less boring and economically more sensible. That's why I think veins should not be smaller than 20 and not be greater than 100 units, restoring 1-3 units per minute.

 

With regards

Lachesis

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All references to how much is harvested and how much should be regenerated are used as examples and not to be taken to scale. The actual math as to what leads to the best balance isn't something I wish to tackle. You would ahve to weigh in the appropiate rate of harvest vs the number of resource points vs number of people harvesting on average vs location of all harvest points in relation to mitigating factors such as storage, pk map, etc.

 

That's more calculation that I care to do at the moment. However, I would be willing to help where I could, though I'll be the first to admit my math isn't always the best...LOL

 

Sincerely,

Goliath

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I go AFK quite often when I play. Most of the time it's when I harvest ore or when I'm walking between storage and the caves.

 

Busting up the actual harvesting process a bit will make ore gathering a bit more engaging but the long walk to storage and back will still be the largest contributing factor towards peoples boredom/AFKism while harvesting.

 

If spawning ore does happen, I hope there is a huge earthquake in DP that closes off the southern cave enterence and opens a new access point in or around Grim's cave. Maybe having the ores spawning in shallow streams of flowing water could make spawning ores more realistic?

 

Anyway, sorry for rambling I'm just sleepy :)

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