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Cheating allowed? Or, no trading from same IP?

Cheating allowed? Or, no trading from same IP?  

237 members have voted

  1. 1. Cheating allowed? Or, no trading from same IP?

    • I want cheating to be allowed.
      132
    • I want the rule of no trading from the same IP.
      104


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It's very simple to have two clients running on the same machine connected such that it looks like they are from two different IPs. You only have to have technical abilities to do it and 10 seconds to start up a tunnel.

And a HOST with a different IP that you have full admin rights over. I am sure all the cheaters have that.

:D Seems they're talking about IP spoofing, which I know little about.. But...

 

:ph34r: Actually, Entropy, I believe I could do it... Drop two $12 NIC's in your computer, hook em both up to the DSL/cable modem, and set the computer to use both connections. Specify that one instance of the client software use NIC 1, and the other use NIC 2. Now that high speed with multiple dynamic IPs is as common as CD drives, (well, it's common in most areas, anyway), it's not a difficult setup, I would think...

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It's very simple to have two clients running on the same machine connected such that it looks like they are from two different IPs. You only have to have technical abilities to do it and 10 seconds to start up a tunnel.

And a HOST with a different IP that you have full admin rights over. I am sure all the cheaters have that.

:ph34r: Seems they're talking about IP spoofing, which I know little about

It's not spoofing, but tunneling or forwarding. Spoofing implies the packets came from point A, but the packets say they came from point B (which makes it difficult to get the responses sent back to point A). The point is that spoofing implies "lying" about where the packets are coming from.

 

Tunneling or forwarding is where the packets start at point A, get sent to point B, and the point B sends them on to point C. In this case, point C is the EL server, which thinks you're really playing from point B. At point A (the place you are actually playing from), you have one client pointing to C and the other point to B. Problem solved.

 

I don't know how Chryz did it (and I suspect we're both being purposely vague because regardless of how the vote turns out, we don't want to be accused of making it easier for cheaters), but I was able to pull it off in about 20 minutes of work (most of which was reading man pages) with a non-admin account on a Linux server at work. I noticed no performance slowdown or other problems.

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So more people have voted to cheat than play honestly..

 

I guess I'm getting to see how green some people are.

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So more people have voted to cheat than play honestly..

Not necessarily, though the slanted wording of the poll gives that impression.

 

More likely, people are voting against a restriction that at best curbs cheating while also interfering with legitimate playing.

 

I for one voted "for cheating" because I'm against adding rules whose positive impacts don't clearly outweigh their negative impacts.

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So more people have voted to cheat than play honestly..

Not necessarily, though the slanted wording of the poll gives that impression.

 

More likely, people are voting against a restriction that at best curbs cheating while also interfering with legitimate playing.

 

I for one voted "for cheating" because I'm against adding rules whose positive impacts don't clearly outweigh their negative impacts.

Cheating is a battle that is constantly fought all the time in ANY MMORPG I've ever seen. It's like the moderators are giving up because they don't have the resources to keep finding the cheaters.

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So more people have voted to cheat than play honestly..

There was no option to choose "play honestly"!

 

It is horrible to look on such pool. Now players gonna feel free to own their mule-characters just because of theese stupid pool.

Roja used politics to encurage us to vote for banning, but people don't want it, so they choose the other option.

 

With all respect to you all, IMO this pool is a nightmare-like: do you want do get rid of: a) your leg, :D your hand. Choose wisely and don't cry after it - it was your choice.

 

PS

Anyway, if two persons are playin with ONE character... is it cheating? What if they play almost 24/7? You don't need to answer it (it's kinda offtopic).

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Guest Septike

Hi

 

I think honesty is something you can't force into people...

I didn't transfer any item from one of my characters to another because it is not allowed ; but as soon as bag transfering is allowed, I'll start doing it. It is probably very convenient.

 

I pity the honest players from the same IP, because there was a time when my brother played at my place and we shared the same IP. He doesn't play EL yet, but should he start a character we would help each other, and that would be allowed because we are now logged from different IPs ? While at my place this would not be allowed ? Errrr... I missed something here...

 

I did not vote, as none of the options suit me. At the moment, I enjoy playing EL, and I don't care what other people do, as long as they do not spoil my pleasure. I feel the channels (mainly 1 and 3) have good moderators and most of the players are fair.

 

Why not keep the rule of anouncing characters playing from the same IP ? And hunt down mules (characters used only for storing items).

 

It is possible that I don't understand all there is behind this poll because I'm fairly new to the game. So I can only hope the best will be done to keep the fair and active atmosphere that exists at the moment :D

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I don't know how Chryz did it (and I suspect we're both being purposely vague because regardless of how the vote turns out, we don't want to be accused of making it easier for cheaters), but I was able to pull it off in about 20 minutes of work (most of which was reading man pages) with a non-admin account on a Linux server at work.  I noticed no performance slowdown or other problems.

Exactly. I didn't tell how to do it because everyone would yell I encourage cheating. Although instruction is very simple, and once you have a shell account somewhere, you need about 10-20 seconds to type the command. You don't need anything special server side. Didn't I say too much already?

 

I do this, because my home ISP have terrible connection to France. I had terrible lags and resyncs all the time. It was not possible to play. When I tunnel connection through different network, the connection is brilliant. Almost no lags at all. But I am a network administrator, I know the network topology and have many servers available connected to a few ISPs and with many IPs available. So I did it just to choose the best route possible to EL server.

But as a proof of concept I set up another tunnel and run second EL client. Everything works fine.

 

Regards

 

Chryzopraz

 

Edit: as usual, misspelings :D

Edited by Chryzopraz

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So more people have voted to cheat than play honestly..

No.

More people voted for freedom and against unnecessary restrictive rules.

It's not our fault that the wording is unfair.

 

Regards

 

Chryzopraz

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I do not agree with cheating however I voted for the moderators/developers to stop wasting their time on cheats.

 

I have played on-line games of one sort or another for over 10 years, most of these games have suffered from the same problems with the economy and power levellers. The solution lies not in constantly tweaking the game to eliminate cheats and balance the economy, but in developing the kind of game that makes this sort of cheating irrelevant.

 

Please allow me to explain.

 

The problems

 

1) economic balance

 

Economic theory states that inflation will result when the supply of money exceeds the supply of goods and services, so if someone sits their main character in Morcraven cave silver ore, and uses two mule characters to keep themselves supplied with fruit and chrysanthemums they will soon build up a great fortune. Having such people able to buy serps for inflated prices causes the price to rise until a serpent sword is unaffordable for anyone who doesn't cheat.

 

If one high level cheat uses mules to keep himself/herself supplied with raw materials to make steel swords in great numbers the time will come when everyone has a few of these swords and the market in this commodity will collapse. How do honest newbies develop their manufacturing skills in a market that has already been saturated by cheats?

 

2) Levelling beyond the game.

 

The use of mules allows characters to rise in levels faster that the game can produce new high level items to make/craft, so as the manufacture of plate armour becomes easy for a number of cheats, new items (i.e. titanium axes) have to be introduced to keep the manufacturers busy. The developers effort is then concentrated on servicing a few cheats instead of the wider community.

 

3) Envy.

 

Lower level players become discouraged when they see other players rise a level a day while they struggle to make it to level 20. Then they discover that the game is full of cheats and it all become clear.

 

The perceived (incorrect) solution.

 

1) Economic balance (incorrect solution)

 

In order to match the amount of production of items to the amount of consumption of items it is necessary make production slower and consumption faster. Production can be slowed by introducing delays in manufacture, reducing the use of 'mules' to harvest/deliver raw materials and changing recipes to include rare items. Consumption can be increased with 'breakage'

 

2) Levelling beyond the game (incorrect solution)

 

Effort can be directed into creating higher level areas and monsters without too much effort. Rabbit reproduced as fluffy rabbit and wolf reproduced as chimeran wolf save the effort of making real new monsters.

 

3) Envy. (incorrect solution)

 

Lower level 'honest' players can be convinced that the problem of cheats will go away, for instance creating a poll about 'mule' characters operating from the same I.P. address will give the impression that 'something is being done'.

 

What is wrong with the incorrect solution

 

1) Economic balance

 

Slowing production and increasing consumption make the game boring and frustrating. Spending a week making unwanted water essences to get an ewe to make an axe that breaks after two days does not give one a warm feeling inside, especially if you finaly get your girlfriend to play the game and help you gather ingredients only to find that she can't trade with you because her machine is on the same home lan as your machine.

 

2) Levelling beyond the game

 

Preventing same I.P. trading will have little impact on the fighters who use second characters to train with the main characters. There will always be players reaching higher levels than the game can cater for.

 

3) Envy.

 

In a game where a few top fighters can make a million experience points every few days while a new player struggles to make a thousand there will always be jealousy and incredulity.

 

The right solution

 

Here is what you should do:

 

Find ways to make the game more exciting and full of wonder! A few days ago I spent 15 hours straight exploring the mage school. It was one of my best on-line days ever. I cannot thank the developers enough for that wonderful experience. I mapped the maze down there and the two sub-mazes, found my way to the laboratory and out through the sewers. Great fun!

 

The game needs more of this - entertainment and experience that are not based on a race to gain points or the use of second characters.

 

What about making ingredients more interesting to collect and use, for instance a quest needing to be completed to get into an area that is the only location of one the the ingredients (quest should vary randomly each time you start it again). Ingredients that randomly explode whilst in your inventory. Some things can only be mixed at dawn. Harvesting that is faster but uses food quickly, and harvesting success drops dramatically when food level is negative. Ingredients that keep trying to escape.

 

Do you see where this is leading? Making manu/crafting more interesting rather than slower. Putting the fun in the process of making, rather than the points gained. You will be to busy enjoying yourself to be bothered running a second character. You wont want to manufacture A.F.K. in case you miss the fun.

 

Why not just let the 'cheating power-levellers' keep going till they run out of things to make at higher levels and monsters to hunt that are at their level, the rest of us can just get on with enjoying the game and having fun exploring.

 

Question: Should the server code developers be writing code to compare the I.P. address of trading characters when characters are still referred to as s/he and the buddy list not generally implemented? You have better things to do with your time.

 

A vote for cheating to be allowed is not a vote for cheating, it is a vote against a silly 'war on cheating'

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:) I agree wholeheartedly, the programmers have better things to do than worry about who is using multiple characters. There are also multiple degrees of using a second character.

 

<_< - Characters don't interact. This is fine right now, and doesn't make people whine about cheating. But why do you need to have two chars unless you plan on doing something that you couldn't with one character? Isn't that the very spirit of cheating?

 

:P - Characters interact, but only for hauling. Apparently not allowed right now, including bag trades, (according to Crannog). This doesn't help the player gain any skill, only with hauling to storage. In my case, the haul character was a guild storage character, and I wasn't using it to gain skill, just to pile up resources for the guild. Who am I hurting by doing this?

 

:D - Characters interact and gain skill from one another. This seems bad to me. Having your characters train fighting off one another lets you just build skill up without really fighting anything. But then again, so does fighting another player in a quiet PK spot. Maybe the amount of exp gained from fighting players should be curbed, rather than disrupting people who play on networks?

 

B) Truly, despite the misleading and biased use of the term "cheating" by the poster of this thread, I think the concept of banning or PKing all people who trade on the same network is not conducive to the spirit of the game, and isn't that what we're here to improve?

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:D Sorry, my girlfriend joined the forum to vote, and I didn't realize she was still logged in when I posted that last entry. My mistake...

 

- Pale Elf

Edited by The_Pale_Elf

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Guest Annomious_User

I dont think trading for the same ip is cheating... I personally own my own guild and i have a guild bank account... Guild name (unnamed) If platyna can have linus and the other guild can have their bots and stuff... they trade from their own ips from thier bots so they can buy the guild members stuff. why cant everyone else... EL has already banned all merchant bots unless you pay $20 USD so trading from same ips is like the poor peoples way... I think if my guild grows i might pay the 20 dollars to get my own bot... But the point is trading from our own ip isn't always cheating...

 

Sincerly,

Annomious user

 

Hi Plat and crannog...

 

BTW anyone with minimal comp exp can just spoof their ip address so you will see a fake ip or multiple fake ips... so i dont think you guys can stop the problem but if you think you can all the power to you...

I personally dont need one im legit but i dont think having a guild bank accout is cheating... or another alternative will be to design a guild storage where members of 19 rank can deposit and with draw from it and everyone else can just deposit to it... and if you have no guild then you can just ask his name and he tells you what he does... :P So i guess this is my suggestion too.... :(

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BTW anyone with minimal comp exp can just spoof their ip address so you will see a fake ip or multiple fake ips... so i dont think you guys can stop the problem but if you think you can all the power to you...

Really? I think I have above average comp exp, and I still have no idea how this could be done. Care to enlighten us?

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BTW anyone with minimal comp exp can just spoof their ip address so you will see a fake ip or multiple  fake ips... so i dont think you guys can stop the problem but if you think you can all the power to you...

Really? I think I have above average comp exp, and I still have no idea how this could be done. Care to enlighten us?

Yeah, enlighten Entropy.. in PMs please. :P

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:huh: Hi all. Yes as i declared befor I have 2 that run from same IP

Fireball And ByteMe. We go out of are way to stay away from each other.

I voted for no on same IP traid.

 

Reasons

1) team play (We all need to work togather this way)

Get out meet friends, join a guild, work togather, Have fun!

 

Thats all I have to say.

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Cheating allowed? Or, no trading from same IP?

 

I want cheating to be allowed. [ 70 ] [49.65%]

I want the rule of no trading from the same IP. [ 70 ] [49.65%]

 

Total Votes: 140

 

Well, dont get me wrong, but ... isn't there something wrong with the calculator :0)

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I posted Entropy the instruction.

 

So don't spam him with tons of PMs :(

 

Little hint from a non-network administrator:

 

I would run my main chars client on my desktop machine and then simply boot my laptop, connect using the inbuild 56k modem to one of the countless call-by-call ISP's and run the muling char there. :huh:

 

Piper

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Reasons

1) team play (We all need to work togather this way)

Get out meet friends, join a guild, work togather, Have fun!

 

Thats all I have to say.

:huh: Actually, I joined a guild, and got warned for this rule in particular because of using the guild storage method, (a char used only for guild storage). So, really, the non-cheating vote is against guilds as well.

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Little hint from a non-network administrator:

 

I would run my main chars client on my desktop machine and then simply boot my laptop, connect using the inbuild 56k modem to one of the countless call-by-call ISP's and run the muling char there. :blink:

 

Piper

I was talking about spoofing IPs, not about having multiple IPs.

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I think it should be allowed simply because I have 9 ppl living in my house, and 6 of them have a characters in EL. It's hard to tell my kids I can't help them at all when I'm the reason they want to play in the first place.

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Heh? Anyone else see a problem with the math here?

I want cheating to be allowed.

[ 72 ]

[49.66%]

 

 

I want the rule of no trading from the same IP.

[ 72 ]

[49.66%]

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