Cheating allowed? Or, no trading from same IP?

[Earl]

I love playing this game with my little brothers, Arkos and Kanae, as when we are living in different places, like now, we can go out and do missions. It's great. But at some point we all run out of enthusiasm for playing every now and again... When I move back in with them they see me playing and they gain all the enthusiasm back.

 

Then Arkos will ask me for cuisses or something...

[Geldon]

I agree with Piper and Heretic.

 

If I had a mule I would PREFER to bag-trade.

 

Also if the DEVs are so concerned abt having unfair advantages, we should reset the whole player database again. <---(sarcasm)

 

Why? Now it takes at least 3 times longer to level Potion/Manu/Crafting.

Everyone who leveled these skills before the last update has an unfair advantage over those who are leveling them now. If i would have known the update would include longer mix times, I would have leveled all these skills to 20+ before it happened. Now it's taking me forever.

 

For these reasons and those stated by heretic --

PLEASE increase the EXP points for these skills by an amount proportional to the mix time increase. (lowering mix times slightly would also be appreciated.)

If this can't/wont be done then I say allow multi-char interaction -- (If I had a mule maybe I could actually get some work done.) And as Heretic said, it would amost be counter-productive to try lvling multiple chars. If players are willing to put in the time, let 'em reap the benefits.

 

(This post has been edited for those unable to detect sarcasm)

Edited February 5, 2005 by Geldon

[Ormus]

OOC: I don't think reseting should be done on this game, if it was it should be atleast every 8 or 9 months to allow players to reach high levels. Though granted a shorter time might meen some people start to work in groups or have a circle of helpers that they will need more then ever before.

 

 

I was doing Manufacture and Alchemy both before and after the update I see no problem with the new times. Atleast you can or should appreciate them a little more if they took longer to get.

 

Most games are not created with the idea of having everyone have a chance of becoming an High level jack of all trades in anything short of a long time of playing.

 

If players are willing to put in the time, let 'em reap the benefits.

 

You said pretty much the same as I did about the new system.

 

Back to Topic: I voted do not allow same IP trading, as they can use a trustworthy third party (3rd player) to be a middleperson in the trade and it wouldn't take much more then a minute.

[Kenneth916]

I have a question before I vote...

 

Currently someone who has to characters and drops something in a bag for their other character is cheating and breaking the spirit of the rules....

 

Will they now get amnisty, and be allowed to make those bag trades?

 

If I make a bag trade with the guy who rents a room in my house, do I have any assurance that I will not be acused of breaking the spirit of the rules?

 

If those bag trade may later be considered breaking the spirit of the rules, then I would have to vote to allow 'illegal multiplaying'... This really is a question of gaining security at the cost of some liberties... and is a difficult question.

[Roja]

Please read my first post about bag trading...it will be allowed.

[taliesyn]

Sure sure...ban trading from the same IP....my wife rips me off all the time.;P

[Beorn]

Umm I want same IP trading because me my dad and my sister all play EL.

[Daxon]

I voted no, but that was a very contradictory choice to do. I don't support cheating, but I do support family members and even people with two characters being able to transfer items to empower another. The only thing I voted "no" for was mainly because of muling. I am 100% against muling, but not against people from the same IP being able to directly trade between two of their characters.

[Guest Tracer]

And it is also not possible to make it so you cannot run 2 clients on the same computer, reason being that this client is open source and can be modified to allow that.

This could be implemented by using a server challenge, where the client sends something unique from the computer it's running on, possibly the machine name, or the output of uname -a (depending on os), and then the server disallows another connection from the same IP with that same info. I know it would be rather easy to get around, but it's something to think about. You could even make the challenge/responce closed source, so the client itself is open source, but the "only one instance" check is a separate, closed source binary (call it key.exe)

[Guest Csilla]

I don't think that all people from the same ip are cheaters... And i can't see why better if we have to ask a friend to help, if he wants to give those rods to me... (he makes rods, essences, and i make something different from these)

 

If someone wants to cheat he'll find his way to do that... But innocent people would suffer from these rules.

[The_Piper]

And it is also not possible to make it so you cannot run 2 clients on the same computer, reason being that this client is open source and can be modified to allow that.

This could be implemented by using a server challenge, where the client sends something unique from the computer it's running on, possibly the machine name, or the output of uname -a (depending on os), and then the server disallows another connection from the same IP with that same info. I know it would be rather easy to get around, but it's something to think about. You could even make the challenge/responce closed source, so the client itself is open source, but the "only one instance" check is a separate, closed source binary (call it key.exe)

You cant.

 

Since the client is open source, it is compiled on nearly every machine or OS available on this planet.

 

So you have to provide this "key.exe" for all of this machines/os, meaning you must compile it there, meaning the developers need access to all of this combinations of machines and OS's.

 

Meaning, you would limit the usage of the EL client to all machines/OS's the developers have access to. And that would block the other ppl (mostly Unix/Linux users, maybe Apple too??) from playing EL.

 

And, at least, each freak can disassemble this "key.exe" and find out what it does. Only some assembler knowledge is needed.

 

So, this idea would block each 12 year old script kiddie, but if some1 wants to break that, he can do it.

 

And ppl who can do this can still do a little bit more and can cheat, or maybe even crash the server.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Piper

[Malaclypse]

I agree with some other people, who have posted here, in that none of them both options will help against cheating.

 

But I don't have a better solution at this time.

 

Nevertheless, I voted for the second options, even it will affect me much, cause I have two chars, that I am playing and a housemate is playing too with another char.

[Aislinn]

As previously suggested, if something is done about the ability to get phys/coord (see Soldus' post) so one char can't overload on carry load and nothing else, what is wrong with working hard to level up 2 chars and using them? The nexus system prevents any one character from being well rounded, so we should be able to honestly work 2 chars to use.

Not to mention it is punishing the honest family members/friends/roommates who play together.

[Entropy]

To the "people will find new ways to do it" crowd:

So what? If we make it harder for them, it's good. We can't stop it, but we can discourage it.

To the "I want to help my family members/roomates" crowd: Well, tough luck, many people do not have family members/roomates in the game and they can play very well. Since bag trading will still be possible, you can help them that way.

[Chryzopraz]

To the "people will find new ways to do it" crowd:

So what? If we make it harder for them, it's good. We can't stop it, but we can discourage it.

To the "I want to help my family members/roomates" crowd: Well, tough luck, many people do not have family members/roomates in the game and they can play very well. Since bag trading will still be possible, you can help them that way.

The point is that you make live harder for honest people than cheaters!

I mean for a cheater such change will be only a minor annoyance which can be easily overtaken.

For a honest family it will be much more painfull.

 

It's very simple to have two clients running on the same machine connected such that it looks like they are from two different IPs. You only have to have technical abilities to do it and 10 seconds to start up a tunnel.

 

Regards

 

Chryzopraz

[Entropy]

The point is that you make live harder for honest people than cheaters!

I mean for a cheater such change will be only a minor annoyance which can be easily overtaken.

For a honest family it will be much more painfull.

LOL

Care to explain?

 

It's very simple to have two clients running on the same machine connected such that it looks like they are from two different IPs. You only have to have technical abilities to do it and 10 seconds to start up a tunnel.

And a HOST with a different IP that you have full admin rights over. I am sure all the cheaters have that.

[Chryzopraz]

The point is that you make live harder for honest people than cheaters!

I mean for a cheater such change will be only a minor annoyance which can be easily overtaken.

For a honest family it will be much more painfull.

LOL

Care to explain?

 

 

And a HOST with a different IP that you have full admin rights over. I am sure all the cheaters have that.

Maybe I assume wrong, but I think most people are honest.

I think there are two classes of cheaters: stupid and ones that see it as a way of life.

So if we forbid trading from the same IP, honest people playing from the same IP won't be able to do it. They will complain or not, be annoyed, but will obey the rule and revert to bag trading. Maybe some quit because game becomes less fun for them.

Stupid cheaters, which are mostly kids, will stop trading with mules as well and will use bag trading instead. Minor change for them as you can switch windows really fast and just use less crowded places

Cheaters who cheat because they like it will just find different tricks like using another IP.

 

You need only a shell account on some other host. Without any special priviledges.

It's not difficult to find such account. Many players learn in schools/colleges. Probably they can have such account on their school's server. You can buy such account for a few bucks.

You can even find servers wich give such accounts for free.

So you only have some technical knowledge and will to cheat as you did previously. And I am sure "proffesional cheaters" do have such abilities.

 

Do not forget, that many players here are working or studing in IT field.

 

Regards

 

Chryzopraz

 

PS.

Yes, I have tested myself what I am talking about.

No, I am not cheating as I am honest. I just check various possibilities, I am an explorer.

 

Edit: misspelings

Edited February 6, 2005 by Chryzopraz

[Dorplein]

People who use a mule mostly trade in not so crowded places, like cc and other places with harvestables. So they can bag trade.

Family also trades a lot in crowded places(Satan's example).

So it'll mostly annoy the family.

[scarr]

trust me if u got a Mule and u wanna trade u have to switch all the time from client to client and click accept and such. over and over .. making a bag is much easyer for a cheater!

[Tropicano]

easier, maybe. safer, no.. by eliminating the ip-trade, you can make sure that the cheaters will always have to look over their shoulders for bagscammers ..

Edited February 6, 2005 by Tropicano

[The_Piper]

To the "people will find new ways to do it" crowd:

So what? If we make it harder for them, it's good. We can't stop it, but we can discourage it.

The problem is, that you dont stop muling etc. with one of these 2 options. It is still possible, because bag trading is allowed.

 

The only thing youre doing with those options is making the life harder for honest players.

 

So there is NO advantages for you, the game or the community if youre going to implement one of this options.

 

And again, about what are we talking? Stopping 12 year old kids who has found out that they can run 2 clients on one computer and maybe can handle a macro recorder?

 

Or people with IT knowledge, who can compile and modify the client and have the WILL and the ABILITY to cheat, because they maybe have access to more than 1 IP address the same time?

 

Just my 2 cents,

 

Piper

[Nintenduh]

I'm all fo it but I think there whould be some sort of whitelist or somthing implimented.

[scafativ]

Disallowing same-ip playing would be tragic for people like me and my wife. We like to play together. Using a mule may be cheating, but it's not the end of the world- there are types of cheating that negatively effect a game more more.

 

I hope that no change is made.

 

scafativ

[The_Pale_Elf]

-_- I say allow it. People can call it cheating, but if everyone is allowed to do it, then it's fair game, is it not? That part doesn't matter.

 

The important thing is to not overwork the admins/mods by giving them stupid busywork. I see admittance that you can't catch everyone, so why go through all the trouble of only being partially effective, when they could be doing something more worthy of their time?

[Nissarin]

I voted to allow trading (so called cheating - look like Roja is vere objective <_<) coz I play with 2 other ppl from my LAN and many times we help each other. I also agree with opinion, that disallowing trading will only annoy most of ppl. Second thing - Ent wrote that some ppl dont have family/friends to help each other - well if you dont remember there are guilds. Moreover guild members many times help each other gathering big amounts of ingreds, so maybe we should disallow trading between them coz some other ppl can call it cheating?