TirunCollimdus

That would have to be multiple perks to have different variations on damage. If the perk was coded to add gelatine bones type damage it could give a couple more pick points. If gelatine bones can be done then I would guess a double gelatine bones type of damage could be coded as well. How hard it is to make the damage only apply to mines is beyond me completely. That is the only way I can think of doing it though. 10 extra points of damage per mine though I think would make at least a 10 point perk. I would say it is worth a minimum of six points the way it is. That means 5 extra points would make it an 8 point perk. I also don't know how hard it would be to add two or three perks instead of one but you asked how so I suggested a way. Tirun

Godless is not even close to better for all rounders. The blessings and extra experience far outweigh the worth of the 8 pick points. You can get your defense to 51 faster and be safe on most maps and get your magic to 40 higher and mana drain the rest of the way. The bonus for crafting gets you higher levels in a skill that is very expensive to train and the same goes for summoning. All rounders should treat godless just like fighters. Do not take it until you are high enough level 110~112 OA so that the pick points are worth it. Those 8 pick points would be 8 levels that take over 30 million experience to achieve. Waiting for godless if the only way to go if you are trying to level or make use of your OAs without resetting. There are plenty of roleplay reasons to take it or not as you wish. There are plenty of personal reasons to play anyway you like but if you are asking about the math then there is no doubt that godless is best taken at 111 OA or higher if at all. When I do my final reset and get up to 111 OA I am taking godless myself and it will be the only negative perk I take. Tirun

Phantom warriors suck for training in most ways but they can be trained on. I use an S2E of magic on them. They give great attack experience for a weak creature because you do little damage but hit all of the time. You get defense experience because they are weak too. You always get magic experience whether they hit you or not because they explode when they die and you will have to restore no matter what you do. They drop AEs 10 at a time, S2Es and bones along with great money compared to what it costs to fight them. I would use a rapier or sunbreaker to fight them if an S2E of magic was not handy. Rapier and high phys works great but the sunbreaker should work for everyone. Life draining them works for magic experience but you have to heal because of the damage when they die too so it is mana intensive. BRs might make this a moot point now that they are stackable. Mana drain and life drain with spider and phantom warrior is great since it costs only essences and the spider can is one hit pawnable. New spider equals new mana. Just essence instensive but worth it. Tirun

I use the portal rooms a lot and I only have 1 rosto. I would not take this perk just because the portal room and underworld exits can be camped. If RC mines can only be detonated by the person who laid them then you would be trapped in the underworld for as long as the mines were there. If a few players took turns guarding the exit you could be stuck there for a very long time. The damage being based on level means you cannot guarantee you will be able to survive coming out of the underworld no matter what gear and health you have. The damage would have to have a max that is below the max health after protection is accounted for to be certain you are safe. Once people know you have the perk you are pretty much hosed anytime someone decides to come after you if you stop moving or go AFK. Definitely a negative perk. I will be interested to see how long players are willing to keep the perk once they have being sitting in the underworld for enough minutes or hours because a guild or group of players has targeted them. Kind of lends itself to harassment I would think as well. Tirun

Let's use a tiny bit of logic shall we? Mizera never disputed the fact they he was as close as willowleaf claimed. The special effects showed willowleaf who was healing the goblin. Now for those with the ridiculous speculation that Mizera was trying to be helpful I have a question. If he was that close and was healing the goblin to help willowleaf get more experience then where is the DB? This is a clear cut case of an outlaw act and frankly if this is being done to newbies then it is breaking the rules. Not sure how long willowleaf has been playing but I think the mods should look into if they can. If Mizera was there and didn't take the DB then why didn't he say who did take it? If Mizera was trying to be nice then how is it that the death bag went missing let alone the goblin getting healed. Common sense says that Mizera got the death bag and did not bother to return it. Since the death message provided the name of the dead player he was simply bag jumping no matter how you look at it. Bag jumpers are outlaws, yes? Mizera's being so close and the death bag conveniently disappearing also lead you to the logical conclusion that Mizera was the one who healed it. This needed to be posted to warn others and especially so that newer players could be warned. Guilds can at least set CZE to a warning color to make sure they know that some members of that guild cannot be trusted while they keep people like Mizera in their guild. Just thinking a little bit about what happened makes it obvious that this is a justified and needed outlaw post. Tirun

I always vote and I always post. I post to explain my vote because we are testers and I think Entropy needs to get all of the input he can from as many players as possible. I post to support my own view, oppose another view, or to clarify my vote so that my motivations are revealed. Tirun

Turning 40 this year. North America in Louisiana. I started playing September 2, 2005. Soon to be three years and I love adapting to the new changes. It keeps things fresh and interesting. There isn't a better challenge anywhere. A game where leveling is more important than gold coin is just the bomb. Great job. Hoping the server update will encourage a LOT more newbies to hang around especially now that the game is getting so much tougher for everyone. Tirun My forum account was started 6 days after my game account but I remember it being a holiday weekend and just don't understand how so many players can't remember when they started. lol The day I joined EL it was the best game around and I have played a lot of games so I will never forget that weekend.

Voted before reading the decision was made. I go to invasions when my computer is working. Voting for the game should have been for ogres IMO. Great job Entropy on putting the fluffies in PK. If you can't find fluffy spawn you just aren't looking. Ogres are getting more players of higher levels dropping down to them because the higher level stuff has no drops anymore. That is why ogres should have been first on the list. Feros should not have been picked number one IMO because I agree that the chim respawn time should be changed or the chims should just be changed in some way to take the heat off of the feros. Tirun

Unolas is one of the gods I really don't see changing from all that is in the forums about the gods and the future changes. I think you came up with a great idea Ermabwed. I don't know how much effort it would take to change but it is much better than what we have at the moment. Tirun

Dear Jamin, The tears would not stop as I read of your loss and the heart felt condolences of your friends. This is a heartbreaking surprise and my heart is with you. Even though I lost my father I cannot begin to imagine what you must be going through right now. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your beautiful girl. When you look at her, see Rachel and let it be a positive and heart filling thing. Rachel was very special and we will keep you and your daughter in our hearts as you go through this transition. You will meet again some day though you have much to do before you that time comes. Is there is anything I can do to help please let me know. My heart breaks for you and your family. As you found the strength to be there for Rachel so do you have the strength to keep being the man your family needs. Timothy

The original idea was not to make them worth making in bulk or 'worth' making at all. Engineering is supposed to be a money sink so making the training arrows profitable or even break even is not going to happen. The idea is to make them cost less than PK arrows to make so that people would make them but cost more than the NPC price for training arrows so that people would only make them for experience and personal use. This way there is an alternative to buying from the NPC even though it is not cost effective. You trade time and experience for gold coin. This idea not only gives you engineering experience but ranging experience as well. Ranging and engineering are both supposed to be expensive. I think this would be a great idea as an alternative to going to the NPC for players who don't like to buy stuff all of the time. I kind of like the idea for all of the items that are NPC purchase only actually. All of the tools that we can't already make, training arrows, wooden shields, etc... Why not give players a fun way to get items they need other than just harvesting for gold and buying stuff even it if doing it does cost them more time, gold coin, etc in the process. People will do stuff that gives them experience whether it costs them money or not. That is how most skills are leveled anyway. These items would all be breakable if they are not already and players could take the hit on the cost if they didn't want to go to the NPC. Anything food and drink related, and leather as well, should not be included in this idea for the reasons posted in the recent suggestion thread about making leather manufacturable. I think the formulas should be left up to the developers unless they want to ask for our ideas. Experience for making these items especially the training arrows would be quite low since they are mostly easy to make. Needles might be an exception to the low experience suggestion. Tirun

The forum causes a lot of hard feelings. I am not sure if it is worse between fighters and mixers or players and developers. I am hoping this thread can ease some of the tensions we have all helped to manufacture. I know I have helped make a lot of them myself so this thread is not for pointing fingers. This thread is to tell people be they other players or developers that you want to admit you made a mistake. This is not a place to ask to be forgiven. That would be self-serving. This is about just giving of yourself to do the right thing whether it helps you or not. I hope I am not the only one to take advantage of this opportunity. Tirun I think it is pretty obviously that I lost the debate on multiplaying. I went hard after the players on the other side of the debate but I think I pushed to hard on a topic we just were not given enough information on. I am not going to be flooding this thread with posts but I will be looking through my previous hot topics to come back and edit in necessary items since I didn't make a list before starting this topic. Edit: One thing I am guilty of in a lot of threads is responding to flames. I am trying to be less aggressive when replying to flames these days if I respond at all. I would like to apologize for loosing my temper whenever I have. Edit: Let me be the first one to apologize to Entropy on this thread. I fought really hard against changing restoration. I of course did not see how the change in the magic system would be good for the game. It really worked out well because it made diversity in character builds a lot more effective. It really made a great change for giving the game more flavor. Thank you for getting that change put in Entropy and I am sorry I made so much noise trying to keep it from happening. Tirun

I made the thread to give people a chance to say that they jumped the gun. Whether you thought you were right or not isn't the point of this thread. Yes we are all entitled to our views and perspectives. Things do get taken too seriously though as well. I am not asking everyone to beat themselves up about being wrong. We all make mistakes. Sometimes it is nice for other people to hear us say we made one. I wasn't suggesting this thread be for flogging yourself or to beg for forgiveness. This is supposed to be just a place where people can see that you know you are not perfect. A lot of the stuff that gets to serious is because of people believing that someone else thinks they are always right. Confidence is not a bad thing when you can admit you made a mistake. I don't want people apologizing for following their own conscience. When we posted all of the stuff we posted we believed we were right to do so. Hindsight though as they say is 20/20. I am talking about using hindsight to say, "No matter how right I felt I was still wrong in this or that case." Don't apologize for who you are or even for who you were if you have changed. Just admit you were wrong and move on. So I guess this idea is just to let everyone else know that you are smart enough to know when you made a mistake and have the courage to admit it. I think everyone letting everyone else know that there are people behind the posts is not such a bad thing. Tirun You can even have fun laughing at yourself along with everyone else. That doesn't sound like getting to serious to me.

It is not based specifically on the critter. It was based on the fact that all critters could not break stuff if you absorbed all of the damage they did. The bug made only monsters that did a ton of damage break a lot of stuff. Now any critter that hits a lot can break stuff weather they do any damage or not. Entropy did a very good job of explaining exactly what breaks stuff earlier in the thread. Tirun

One thing that needs to be mentioned is that all of the players are saying they used to fight in cheaper stuff and everyone can go back to that are not being entirely accurate. There are items now that were massively used back before cooldown etc that now require EFEs. Yes you could use stuff way back then that was effective and cheap but now almost everything that is effective requires an EFE and back then EFEs were everywhere compared to now as well. If people wanted to use iron plate for training and they lost it there was not big deal. Drops were better and EFEs were half the price they are now at best. Now there is almost nothing but augmented to fight in and it specifically is designed to break fast. The restore spell doesn't work even half as well as it did and we have the attribute cap now as well. Trying to compare how it used to be to train and how it is now to train is like comparing apples and oranges. Things are harder to make. Monsters drop less stuff. There are more players for the spawns that are available. How is sending everyone back to training on weaker creatures they can handle in augmented going to not cause a log jam at spawns? How can anyone say that this is like it used to be? How can anyone say that this is not a disadvantage compared to the way it was? Toughness doesn't protect your stuff like it did and stuff costs twice as much to make. Healing has to be done twice as often and where are you getting the mana from for that if you can't wear a crown? Most people fight in crowns of life now because the armor let them. Now crowns are basically useless for anything but PK and training on creatures that break them all the time already. Well crowns are still good for harvesters but trainers who aren't on yetis or higher won't be able to use them anymore. No things cannot go back to the way they were. Drops and formulas are different. Let's let Entropy try to fix this problem because it is a problem. Old school does not work with todays EL. Ask TD. Tirun

Asking for more consumers in EL is like asking for more prostitutes in a convent. You can't find a consumer to begin with let alone expect anymore to be coming in the near future. All of Entropy's ideas are based on killing any type of consumerism in EL. If you can make money then something is wrong with the game. Entropy's EL economy is: you spend gold coin to level your character. That is it. You are not supposed to get rich. You are not supposed to make money. If anyone is making more than they are spending then there is something wrong with the game. Their is simply no future in trying to get rich in EL. If one person can make good money in EL without having to spend that same money then everyone could. Anyone being able to get rich and stay rich is not acceptable in EL because it means that there is no end to the possible amount of gold coin in game. What we need is something for every mixer to need that has to be paid for so that the they have to spend money to make money. If every mixer had that kind of limit on their income then there wouldn't be a need to limit the fighters income. The fighters would pay the mixers and the mixers would spend on their skill and no money would be made by anyone that did not go out of the game. Everyone would get to play doing the things they want and everyone would be happy. There simply is no other solution. Tirun

How does it affect PKing? I was very happy to hear that you were looking into the problem and considering a change that seemed like the perfect solution to me. I do agree with the players who say we need a change to adjust to the effects of the bug being fixed. I don't think the other solutions will work because they don't cover items like crowns. I just think it needs to be adjusted enough so that people don't completely stop training in good gear so that the lower level spawns are protected from players who want to keep their better armor for PK or something else besides training. As Tempest has mentioned many times over, anything that has an effect on the economics of training has an effect on PK. To be able to PK you have to have money and you cannot get money from PK. PK is done with rostos so it is always a loss when you fight. Yes there is TD and there is the very few exceptions who PK without rostos but they are an extreme minority and we are talking about the larger general population. PKers used to train to get money to pay for the gear they lost in PK. Now they harvest or use other skills to replace the gear they loose in PK. Now PKers will be harvesting to replace their training gear and their PK gear too. The more training costs them the more they have to harvest/alch or whatever to afford to PK and train. This leads to using your a/d skills when you play less than your other skills and suddenly you are a harvester who PKs or an alcher who fights. That is how this effects PK. Telling people to drop to lower creatures in cheaper armors puts more people on the lower level spawns which most of the players are already on. Forcing players to make money by training on or drop fighting on monsters that are so weak for them that they don't need armor or can use really cheap armor is just going to make it impossible for players who should be training on them to use them. Spawns are a finite resource and telling people to move backwards on them makes the game too hard for newer players because they cannot get spawns. Tirun

To bring PK back make all of the monsters that wander into or are in PK areas drop really good gold or items. Preferably only gold. This will allow PKers to pay for their PKing by actually fighting in PK maps. You can't spawn serp in PK so only the people who need the money will be able to hold the spawns and everyone will be fighting level appropriate monsters to get the gold they need to replace the gear they spent/lost in PK. As this would greatly increase the number of players in PK maps and areas it would also greatly increase the PK opportunities in EL as well. I can't really see a down side to this. The PKers earn the extra gold by risking getting 'spawn serped' by getting PKed. Players who are new to the game here about the great money available in PK maps and get interested in it from the start too. This makes the a/d level arenas a great idea too as a LOT more players are going to be fighting/training to get to those uber drops at the top of the PK map list like the Hulda chims which should drop tons of coin. Tirun

Well if we have 50 players in the hundreds and you put in all of the spawns in Imbroglio and the other places that have caves etc plus TD being back to normal PK or just being used by those willing to risk it and you have at most 2 players in 100 a/ds per spawn. I doubt you would have 2 per spawn but even if you did then you are looking at PKers hunting the players who are hunting the people using the spawns. You have the players in the 80s a/d in groups hunting the PKers who are after the spawn fighters. There are so many possibilities for PK that I can't imagine anyone saying PK is dead anymore. Why not try it? Tirun

So at least 1/3 of the active game population is over 100 a/d?? WOW! I had no idea most of the fighters in game were already in 100s a/d. The forum shows that the game is about half mixers and half fighters. 600 or so people on max in a given day unless it has gone up. 200 in 100 a/d makes it extremely hard to believe that there isn't anyone PKing. TD would be used but even if it was used only sporadically then go back to the letter I wrote to Entropy on the change the TD back to normal PK thread. Also I have repeatedly said that making more spawns could be an option. Hulda and Imbroglio should definitely have at least 10 spawns but I think more than that. We need some input from the developers on stats for all of this stuff. If monsters wandering into arenas count and the PK caves it is quite a few more. Tirun

You have said that the high level players would pawn all of the weak ones. How can having more players online change that? It means more high level players to kill the lower level players. If your idea that this would happen is right then how could having more players online possibly make this idea work? How can it be that people can be able to consistently farm the gold coin as you say at the end of the post when you spend the rest of it saying that it will only benefit the PKers who can pawn them? There is no way the maps in both Seridia and Irilion can have all of their spawns covered by uber PKers. Even if they PKers wanted to just hunt lower level players they would be spending their money for nothing getting from place to place since almost no one would be fighting for drops without a rosto. The higher level fighters would be better off trying to get spawns of their own in PK areas. As Tempest said about KF there were always people hunting the hunters and that would be the same on every PK map for players trying to hunt people at the spawns. There is no way this would provide no risk PK for anyone. People can make allies with guilds that team the highest level players too. They can actually be decoys setting traps for higher level players. This is not going to be a free ride for anyone.

My idea is to make the PK drops 4~5 times more than normal. Dis and run is possible but if PKers try to serp spawns or just hang around a spawn then people can come back with groups of friends and go after that PKer. They already ruined drops on all the high level monsters on purpose. I doubt you are going to get them to reverse that decision. Being PK the spawns cannot be controlled all day by anyone. The increase is to give a chance for more gold for at least limited amounts of time. There are tons of spawns in PK. If it can be attached to PK then monsters that wander into arenas would drop more too. There is no way that PKers would be able to sit every spawn and they wouldn't want to because they would want to be drop fighting on some of the spawns themselves. This will get a LOT more players into PK maps and good money could be had even it if you couldn't keep a spawn 6 hours at a time. I even suggested that the number of spawns in PK could be increased if needed to make the idea work. Just how many spawns are in PK? It has to be a ton. I don't see everyone getting to a spawn getting attacked and then leaving instantly. There just aren't enough players to cover every spawn in PK and attack every player at a spawn in PK too. Especially since some players would be training outside of PK still, PvPing still, hunting Leonard still and even PKing each other without fighting over a spawn still. They are not going to increase all drops but increasing drops in PK is reasonable and should work. The amount of the increase and the amount of spawns could change without too much trouble. I don't think more spawns are needed though. Tirun

As the games owner its certainly your prerogative to leave the map how you choose, but IMO the only thing another unused map does in the long run is hurt the game itself. TBH everyone needs to stop looking at the past through rose tinted glasses, the game and its items have moved on.PK is never going to be the same as it was 2-3 years ago, and it will maybe be differant again in another 2-3 years. I don't give up very easily because I think this is a great game and I want what is best for it. This thread shows I am happy to help PKers when it helps the game. I can use the PK maps too if the drops go up but eventually I will reset and not be able to do it anymore for a very long time. I might even go the ranger/mage or ranger/summoner route and never be able to take advantage of it after my harvest reset. I am started this thread and I am posting in it to help other players because they need it. Entropy, Leaving the map exactly as it is as a punitive measure will probably make it even less used than it is now. If all of the fighters stop going then it will mean monster magnetism and HBags will make TD the new mixer heaven in EL. No risk, using fruit, 1 second cooldown. Not good for the game in any way. Don't forget all of the posting about rostos ruining PK. Make a point that lasts for anyone who wants to complain about changes you are making. You can't let the past control the future. Hurting the game to make sure people don't forget they were wrong is not going to brighten ELs future. It is not only limiting the useful space you have for players in game but it is also really, really, really bad PR. My suggestion is to take the advice on fixing the map or change it back and not have old school PK anymore. I think fixing it is better since a lot of people like fighting in TD. If you really want to make a point about people running off at the mouth when they don't see the whole picture then do something that doesn't hurt the game. Make every single player on the forum who said, "Omfg, the rostos/cooldown/blah/blah" ruined the PKing.", post on an apology thread and pin it at the top of general and the suggestions sections. Doing this will give you a link you can use every single time someone tries to scream at you that what you are doing is ruining stuff. IMO this would give you an easier time of squashing the fights you have when trying to change things. This would show everyone that you are far more aware of what is going to happen and how it will effect the game then anyone else is. This will show everyone that you can tweak mistakes that are suggested by players into something they want instead of what they asked for in the first place. All in all I would say that fixing TD and making the apology thread would be a massive boon for EL not just for the present but also for the future as changes continue to be made. Why hurt the game when you don't have to? Tirun PS Please increase drops in PK as suggested too.

Learner's arguments all are attacking a/d training and not referencing back to PK. Yes if you give a/d trainers good drops they get money plus awesome experience. If you think that is a problem then you are not taking into account, as Tempest has said, Entropy has made the higher level monsters absolutely smash through armor. Telling high level players to drop down to weaker creatures to make money is possibly the worst suggestion ever. How often are ogre spawns open with players that have the right levels fighting them??? Now you want ALL of the higher level fighters on them too??? I guess the ogre trainers drop back to unarmed male orcs and the unarmed male orc fighters go back to gargoyles and gargolye trainers go back to wolves and wolf trainers go back to IP??? I went through that whole list because someone on the development team has to understand that telling players to fight below their level is a great way to ruin the game. Telling players to go down to make money is taking the easy way out and trying to dodge the problem instead of solve it...... unless you are going to double the number of spawns??? Please. If you are not going to increase the drops for high level monsters and continue letting them break armor like nobody's business then something has to give somewhere. There has to be money for fighters besides just using other skills. Increasing drops in PK is a fair solution. It means players can stay on monsters they are the right level to train at the risk of being attacked and actually making some money. This money can pay for PK and encourage PK at the same time. If players want to risk getting PKed just to get some money while training a/d then they deserve that money. Tempest and the other PKers are right. Even Learner admits there is no money to be made by high level fighters. No money means no PK. You cannot get around or away from this. Give PKers a chance to have fun or tell them to find another game. It is time to listen to the PKers and stop punishing them for getting experience. The attribute cap should have increased PK but no one can afford to PK anymore with all of the drops gone. Tirun

I just realized something. Do titanium chains even drop anymore? Even if they do isn't it really rare? Now that titanium chain needs an EFE if you were doing armor restrictions would anyone where even those? Would you wind up with a map full of PKers in steel chain using titanium short swords? If old school PK was all about fighting in trash gear wouldn't that be how far back things would regress since EFEs are basically store items these days? Who would waste EFEs on items for old school PK when you still need them for uber gear for regular PK and fighting dragons and stuff? I don't see how it can be old school if rostos work. If it goes back to armor and weapons that don't need EFEs then is it really going to be what PKers are asking for or not? I think my idea of putting in a poll to see which of these two things players want is the best solution and then Entropy can tell us how the chosen idea needs to change to work or if we can actually have it the way it is. Tirun