Lorlen

Found an old folder with some screens in it, just picked out some random ones of my times playing, unfortunately no really old ones but still ^^ The poisoned tree in KF, I died there 4 times (trying to get bag back) with this unhelpful lot laughing at me before they gave me enough HE to walk my way out ^^ Old molgor bug. Check the players online, miss some of them alobar being his usual self, <3 proper oldschool vikings random screen I took before the start of the All out War event Hera (aislinn/soldus/vermor probably, never found out who) beaming me into the arena to die xD Lots of smelly EF nubs around there too. <3 paul Post all your random old or new screens, there isn't really a topic dedicated to this atm and it's always fun to look at other people's shots

Nor do I try to bash you. I disagree, look at my very first post in this thread and then your very first reply to me. (I didn't say there should be the question marks for quests ;s) The last thing I would say is that, if you think the tutorial is great (so great that there's a nice lengthy suggestion list in the relevant section...), what else are you doing in order to try and bring in more players? Ignoring my ideas is fine if you have some of your own that are as simple to implement. If not then would it not be better to have some improvement, even if it is small than to have none at all? Oh, and my last last thing: This topic that is for discussion another time. Will it ever be that time?

I think the point is that your oh so clever analysis of WHY is wrong. As well as your conclusion as to our motives and desires. Oh god no, you assume I think this is the main reason?!? This is simply what was being discussed. If you want me to state WHY this game is as it is I'd want immunity and a few days to get the list straight. Since I'm not going to get that I'll simply fight where I can to try and improve what small bits can be improved. I don't really have any idea what your motives and desires are, nor have I professed to know them. I've always known and thought you to be level headed, generally fair and want whats best for the game. This is wrong? The community as a whole however isn't the same, as is to be expected. I still don't quite understand why this is such a big deal to you. This is a problem that has been highlighted and is viewed as a problem by a large enough amount of people here that doing something about it wouldn't be a waste of time, wouldn't change anything drastic gameplay wise and as far as I can see shouldn't upset anyone. You still haven't given me any solid reason why making a nice tutorial section is a bad idea. Why do you insist on continuing to try and bash me down rather than focus on the problems? It really is quite beyond me :S - Maxine I don't really care what you spend your days doing; the tutorial still isn't great, and your comment still didn't help.

And despite all your oh so clever comments the fact still remains: This game's population has never particularly grown, even after 7-8 years. If you're happy with that then it's fine. If not try to be helpful and contribute maybe? Or you could wait another 8 years and see if there's more people playing ofcourse; the old waiting game does have its merits.

Not going to quote it all because ite's ridiculous. 1) I'm suggestion that people read and click and level in the tutorial, where did you get the idea that I don't want that? :S 2) I know there was a newbie island. It was pretty confusing and basically pants, which was why people didn't want it. If you made a good one with good, simple instructions I'm sure people wouldn't mind so much. 3) Please direct me to the people who are saying they don't want to read anything, I'm having trouble locating those posts in this thread. And as for a solution which apparently escapes you: what do you normally do when there are 2 things that different people want and you have the option and resources to provide both? Put them both in maybe and let people choose? Radical idea man I know. 4) I'm making assumptions from what I read in this thread, nothing more and nothing less. Logically speaking, taking the evidence presented here, my arguments are sound. Sorry if this upsets you :/ 5) This doesn't make sense. I wasn't saying everyone had to be pleased, nor was I saying this was real life. I was providing a nice example to show you that EL will always be viewed against and compared to other mmorpg's out there if you're trying to entice in more players from the main mmo playerbase. Once again if this isn't your aim then it doesn't matter does it? 6) Heard of inference? Taken with your previous lovely post towards me what other conclusion could I come to other than that was directed at me? And no, no guilty conscience. Do you often get one for speaking your mind about this game then? * and to the above post: Ofcourse those games have grinding, but they disguise it well. It has been said on these forums before (not going to find it for you) that the best mmo's manage to mostly conceal the fact that you are grinding by making it more enjoyable, adding in quests, different monsters to kill and other fun things. EL attempts this by making you sit there training on the same mobs for months before you can move onto the next one, with the fighting being clicking on something and occasionally fleeing. Good effort. and what? No-one said it should be a game where you get everything nice and easily. No-one is really saying you should change the basic gameplay (some people are complaining about it sure, but not suggesting you change the whole game). People are suggesting you make the fucking tutorial more accessible. Why the hell are you so opposed to that? Give me 1 good reason other than you don't want the population of the game to grow.

This is where I disagree with you. The "new player" is not viewed as bad. Notice the help channels and the decent amount of players and mods in there to help. Note the mods who help on IP and answer #help_me questions. We like new players as much as anyone. However the new|old|medium players who insist the game is bad because it's not like WoW or Runescape, the new|old|medium players who insist they don't have to read anything to get by and demand, yes demand!, we do all his work|gaming for him, and the new|old|medium players who comes in for no other purpose than to troll or insult...those hopefully do get weeded out. They are not good for any game. It's not too much to ask that EL be judged on EL alone. It was not meant to be a mind-numbing do-nothing-but-level-anyway game. And it is not too much to ask that somebody claiming to be a game authority actually get his facts right before presenting them to the public. And nobody has reasonably answered pip's question. How should the newbie be informed of all the game features that do not fit on page 1 of any help or encyclopedia page or on the interface or screen? Should we just remove them since newbies should not be forced to read? but...but... The population of this game supports my argument much more than yours. You might like new players but you apparently have absolutely no idea how to actually encourage them to stay in the game and bring their friends. If it was so newbie friendly there would been a large population that had steadily grown over the years. There isn't. As for the rest: I lol'd at you suggesting a tutorial section would basically mean you were doing all the work for someone. This game is the largest grindfest I've ever played; even the original Silkroad was never as bad as this... you need to invest so many hours in this game it's unreal*, why does it matter so much if the start of the game is made easier for the average mmo player? *(This isn't a criticism; it's part of what makes this a different and attractive game to some, just an observation.) Now how should we give a tutorial to new players entering the game? I mean I'd suggest an (optional) tutorial island or something like it where you are guided through the very basics of the game: their first alchemy, manu, fight, potion and spells. Obviously they only remain in this area for a while and only get given the ingreds for 1 or 2 spell/items/whatever. I'd also suggest putting links to the relevant section of the encyc on almost all of the games windows so new players can easily access the information they need when they want to read up more on something. This seems like a pretty easy solution, no? No-one ever said this game is bad because it isn't like wow or runescape; on the contrary it's one of the things that has always made it good. Also no-one is demanding to not have to read anything, but rather to not have to read so much right at the very start of the game when the emphasis should be more on gameplay and getting people hooked before they have to read so much. Basically all that is being suggested is that the very start of the game be made more newbie friendly, aimed more at the average gamer in today's world. Once again (see numerous other posts on why this is pointless if your aim isn't actually to expand the playerbase). I fail to see why this is such an issue unless you are actually elitist and don't want certain types of people plaing the game but rather want only the people you approve of, in which case your opposition to this makes perfect sense and we finally have an answer to the major question. And EL will never be judged on EL alone; you think this game is magically seperated off from the rest of the world? Wish I got given that luxury when people look at what work i've done or accomplished and didn't compare it to anything that's ever been done by anyone else, would make me look alot better thats for sure! Oh and if you take suggestions and criticisms as trolling and insults then I am sorry for you, but will not stop posting. (For that reason anyway)

Thanks Aislinn. Good to know that people who don't instantly agree with everything you say are given such nice treatment <3 Continuing the fine traditions of the EL forums! Anyway; Winkz' post basically highlights the problem for me. The majority of players in this game, if they stay long enough, get converted to the view that new players are bad. This cannot be a good thing... it's basically inbreeding on a slightly larger scale. The only people who ever really stick around all end up being pretty much the same, which is great for the short-term as generally people get along, but bad for the long term if you want the game population to grow. I've often wondered why one minute I'd see an ad for EL and the next see new casual "normal" players getting shot down and basically forced to quit the game by a community that is generally much too quick to judge and basically hurting itself if it does want more players. Once again I'll state the single most obvious fact that this whole debate hinges on... If radu wants the game population to grow then he will have to take note of these suggestions, as well as many others that I'm sure people have stored away. If not then we can just lock this thread because it's basically a waste of time and banter. It just depends where radu wants to take the game from here; either way is fine... obviously the game won't die out or anything if he wants to keep it small. The past is proof enough of that.

Hm, badly worded post on my part. Maybe, logically, assume I meant the people that this entire thread is about; the majority of people who play mmo's and may someday try EL, rather than the people on this forum who already play the game and are therefore people who we already know will sit down and read a manual. Not really sure why I have to explain this but I will anyway. The point I was making was that most people, upon downloading a new mmorpg, will not be inclined to read an onscreen manual but would rather just play the game and have it explained to them as they go. Really though; your post was informative if not really pertaining to the topic in hand. Thanks for it!

Most any game you buy/play has a manual for it to read or in game reference material. If they actually took the time to read something they wouldn't be so left out in the dark. Indeed. And how many people here regularly read the manual of a new game they buy? Doubt i've ever read more than a few; I want to play the game not read how to play it. (especially with a game like this that has a small download and install size, meaning you won't be waiting around for it to install... which is when I normally flick through manuals.) Why do you think what is now the standard of a (sometimes skippable) tutorial section came about? Because the developers didn't have anything better to do or because they realised people wanted to get into the game immediately rather than having to read through a load of text first...?

lol at all the people trying to crucify him because he make some criticisms. DAMN HIM!!1! (I mean honestly... what did you think a "first impressions" quick video for a hugely popular mmo site was going to be; him reading through the encyc and all the NPC dialogue to do the tutorial? :S) Anyway, all the points he raises are good ones; the main problem is, as it always has been, that this game will never have a large population. It doesn't conform to most common mmo forms; and it is this that makes it different (and therefore in some respects good), but guarenteed to have a low playerbase. The interface is clunky; the camera moves annoying slowly if you come back to EL from a game where you can pan it with the mouse. I've also always wondered why there aren't other small, easy improvments such as a simple outline of a body behind the equipment section just to make things slightly clearer for new players... it wouldn't exactly be hard to do would it? Not going to bother going through the rest. If you want the population of the game to increase then all those problems would need to be addressed, if not that it doesn't matter. Going by the past... 7+ years now? (scary) it's not radu's main concern. As long as he's happy with it that way then not much else matters; the game has a pretty consistent population even if it is small.

Hasn't this one been around for years? I vaguely remember something similar back then.

Not when you first started.... noop :<

Mostly this. Some of them not so much :> Also silvara/raen, moonienooby, Kala... too many to list eh? lol @ tresh molime is busy raiding LK last I knew ^^

The community rules only exist because this game has such a small community that they are able to enforce them. Bagjumping is always going to be looked down on. It might be "just a game" but the time and effort invested in it are real. The loss if you lose lots of stuff is still the same. While the community remains as small as it is then you won't get too many people who take dbs without caring about the consequences. With a game like runescape (as it was, haven't played for years) it was alot easier to take the stuff people dropped when they died and get away with it. With such a large population you could always find other people to deal with; this can't happen in EL... Same way you don't go robbing from your neighbours when you know they'll find out it was you. The possible reward isn't worth the risk of what will happen if you get found out. Honourable PK isn't really a community rule; as least it didn't used to be. We used to kill anyone we didn't like or know, which mostly consisted of randomers coming into KF. No-one really used to mind; we were never really outlawed or anything. Hell most people liked us in a way. Ofcourse back in the day items were so much cheaper and everyone had similar levels; drops were easily replaced and fights were normally just fun. Gains and losses normally evened out, and if not profit from training meant everyone could afford to PK abit. Can't really comment on how PK is these days as I don't play :> Like Korrode said for spawnserping; the way the combat system in this game is designed spawnserping can only ever be viewed as a deliberate attempt to harm someone's training. There isn't another logical reason for someone to do it if they have any idea of how the game mechanics work. It basically boils down to the fact that this game has always had a small and basically closed community. Sure lots of new people get involved but only if they conform to the pre-existing set of community rules. Those who don't tend to get fed up and leave; you can't expect someone to just come in and start being "evil", not caring about being ostracised from the community and generally viewed as a bad person. Not that the rules are bad; they represent common sense and are good for the game. You just can't expect them to change that much unless the population of the game suddenly booms massively.

Indeed, it is silly to complain. This fact in no way excuses the log posted here. God, you people wonder why this game hasn't grown much. With a community like this it's the biggest mystery in the world! I'll leave you to it; this is something worthy of being posted in outlaws. It's good to know who's an ass and who isn't. (@dilly - If you're not willing to take it seriously and sort out the problem yourself then how will it ever get fixed? The people who still play and care about the community need to do something about it.. I'm just giving advice here obviously, do as you will ) (Oh and on channel 6 it's normally the same people who do it to each other. Looking at this it's one person unprovoked attacking another who doesn't speak English too well. If you can't see the difference then I've been fighting a losing battle all along...) /endbrackets

Doesn't matter if there are previous incidents we don't know about. All we can go on are the facts presented here until someone comes forward with more evidence; and from what we can see here someone's bot was killed, they asked the person who did it why and that person decided they needed to verbally abuse said owner. Do it. Then maybe the community can get cleaned up abit and there won't be so many planks walking round shooting their mouths off just because they think they have a right to do so due to their levels/friends/whatever.

You all lvl 150 at missing the point? Musta took alot of training eh? :> It isn't about the bot being killed; it's about some douchebag launching into a vicious attack on someone who just enquired why they killed their bot. Could have easily just told her/him that there was no particular reason, just for kicks. Why the offensive language and general abuse towards someone who obviously doesn't speak very good English in the first place? No need for it. Killing the bot isn't wrong, the unwarrented abuse and foul language are. (The #ignore argument can poo off, doesn't change the fact that this is (or appears to be at any rate) a random verbal attack on someone making an enquiry.) Still +1 for solidarity eh? At least you all beat down on her together

I took 16 will when I started :>

obviously the things you're saying are true, doesn't make it any less funny... this isn't about not being tolerent; i can't see anywhere in the quote where this person had any negative replies or anything :S i'm sure lots of the "funny" things you dig up would actually be funny; just depends on the kind of person you are whether you can laugh back at them eh? :>

still pretty funny...

BUMP! Still recruiting, visit our forums for more info or to apply. Please don't apply if you're a douche; other than that all are welcome providing you have decent levels (enough to show you're a dedicated player) :>

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo old though, those vidoes are so 2 years ago I remember shiv's ones, made me lol

Proper Link ;>

Loving the "Mystical Quests" lol Wow you get half back?!? BONUS! Apart from that it looks nice, well organised ;>

Debatable