Enyo

As SmoomS said, buy the exc cloak to harvest faster. Also make fire essence and sell to the magic shop because you will get experience at the same time. Or, if you get bored with that, make reasoning potions and sell them to Mira. There are lots of ways to make money ingame with NPC help. As for armor, stick with leather for everything for now. Padded leather armor torso, helm, pants and boots are perfect for your current needs. Final advice, while ingame type: #jc 1 for newbie channel help. PS DemonCowboy, harvesting isn't ruining the economy but I think you are just against it since you are anti-social but wait, you have slaves to help you trade, buy and sell with NPC.

This idea has been suggested in the huge gigantic monstrous alien thread on the economy.

Arnieman, don't forget that EL is a game without classes so another part of the problem with the economy which ironically makes the game more attractive is that one has the option to be an all arounder if he/she chooses to. Most players do a little bit of everything once again voiding out the golden rule of supply and demand. I give up on this economy debate because I only see it spinning around in circles at the moment and its making me dizzy.

Most of what you have said has already been said and posted by me earlier in the thread. I would suggest that people actually READ the entire thread before posting more and more of the same ideas over and over and over again and also if you see that someone else has already posted certain suggestions, please don't just re-word it and make a new post. At this point I don't see this thread going anywhere at all because its become so cluttered how could anyone possibly keep up. We have all debated and forumated this topic to death. I think several people have already suggested it and now I'm going to propose it again. Lets just give it a rest and let the devs have an opportunity to digest it all. Thanks.

I agree with this 100%. Make things like CoL, CoM, and the magic swords undropable, and remove the rostogol. Currently it is TOO powerful for the price you need to pay. Either that, or make it a lot more rare, so the price is more like 40k. EDIT: Tags fixed Getting rid of the ros stone won't change a thing just like it didn't change a thing when they removed it from monster drops nearly a year ago. The only thing that changed is that the price skyrocketed. Ros stones are rare enough as it is. Nothing should be undropable unless its expensive items bought with cash inshop. Thats my personal opinion.

Dent, even in reality not even a machine could mass produce at the rate of EL players and with such perfection. That is the purpose of a cooldown on tools is to slow the production down a bit, thus making it a little more realistic.

When EL was first created it was a new game with a limited population who needed to rely upon valuable monster drops and reasonable NPC prices. When full restore was originally created players didn't have health bars in the hundreds and two continents didn't exist. Its time to re-evaluate: At present there is a thriving community ready to work and meet the demand of their fellow players. Give them this opportunity by removing ALL weapons, jewlry, potions, essence and armor from monster drops. Remove them ALL. No one needs to buy leather torso, leather helms, damage rings, or most weapons including the poweful titanium long (which is nearly as good a serp sword) because they are dropped. This leaves books, cloaks, stones and gold for drops only. Get rid of perks which are the counterpart of their cloak thus increasing sells in rare monster drop cloaks and giving them value once again. Make more uses for serp stones so that they are once again more valuable. Get rid of the artificial perk or reduce the random factor significantly to create enriched essences so that the market isn't flooded with them and increase the price of EFE inshop or don't sell them at all. Kedan, changing the healing spells would be more than a mere "tweaking".. it would be a major overhaul because we've all become dependent upon these full restoration spells and fleeing tactics. It would require adjustment just as the cooldown has and just as it would to have a cooldown on all tools but in the end it would all be worthwhile. Magic spells are one of the building blocks of this society. They effect how we train, how we sell and buy.. it all has implications. People who are too weak will sit at a storage and train their magic by casting shield spells until they reach magic level 21. Players abuse this by training on monsters which are too strong for them in the first place thus overpopulating spawns. Stronger players with high health bars and even higher increased health bars abuse this with their crown of life.. and so on and so on.. If there is more variety in healing spells, thus more need to buy mana potions or healing essence..this is changing formulas as you all were discussing before except I propose to change some magic spells since these are used most. I propose to git rid of fleeing since this is also relied on most thus creating a need for weapons of all types.. from the weaker weapon to the more stronger one. Make pickaxes not usable as a weapon thus once again forcing players to buy the weaker weapons. Only allow players below 10/10 ad to be able to use bones and sticks as weapons and all others are forced to buy iron swords or tit shorts, etc from players... or at the very least make these bones and sticks break very very easily. Personally I think that the stronger a player is the weaker weapons should break easier and weaker players shouldn't be able to use a stronger weapon. In reality, a weak person couldn't possibly pick up a heavy weapon and expect to use it if he had never used a weapon in his life. As for rings.. perhaps there needs to be tweaking on the cooldown for damage rings and diss rings so that the crafters have customers again? That with jewlry not being dropped or weapons and essence and armor not being dropped.. all of it combined together will make drastic and quick imrovements/changes to the game and also economy. As I said before.. Its a major overhaul. Sometimes its needed. And for NPC's.. they also need a re-evaluation. The needs of NPC's 3 years ago shouldn't be the same as for today with a larger and more skilled player population. Mira for example sells mana potions for only 5gc each and healing potions for 6gc each! Its time for the shops to go up in prices from essences to potions even to ore, bars and armor and weapons. Most new players will just buy an iron chainmail from the blacksmith for 200gc. All of this needs to stop. Buying from a shop should be a luxury that one affords themself when they can't find a merchant player or can't make it themselves. There should also be at least one nexus required even to make the smallest items such as gloves or mana potions... thus once again creating more of a demand. This IS all about supply and demand, folks! If there is a risk to cloaks breaking while training on a creature shouldn't it seem logical that the same risk exists when using a cloak for summoning, or just about anything else including harvesting? YES, having level restrictions for everything will also improve the economy even down to wearing platemail or using a certain type of weapon. Once again it will force the player to buy appropriate armor and weapons according to their level needs and not physique and coordination needs, etc. Plus everything else that I've already mentioned.. cooldown on all tools, magic cap on exp, etc etc.. trust me folks this will work...it will at least be a healthy beginning. My original post in this thread Summarization: How did we get into this mess? Its simple really.. the current roles and functions of NPC prices, formulas, magic and monster drops were suitable for a much smaller playing population. Since then they have become outdated with the growing EL population and its current needs and therefore needs to be re-evaluated. This is normal for any society. No one can predict the future needs on a new project accurately. Re-evaluate.

Kedan, it ALL helps the economy... every little bit combined so you are wrong to say that it won't. Of course it will. It will change spells thus creating more demand for the overproductive supply, etc.

Kedan, if a player is killing a monster too quickly then he/she is free to use a weaker weapon or none at all and then when the exp stops can pull out a weapon for a quick kill. If they are too strong for the creature even without a weapon then its obvious that they need to move on to the next creature higher up on the AD monster chain. As for solving the economy problems, lol.. I think you have read all of my previous posts suggesting cooldown on tools because most of the main problem with the economy is over production making the basic laws of supply and damand meaningless. I also suggested placing an exp cap on most everything if not everything. Also I recommended that we should have other healing spells besides 5hp/7hp and then full restore. The current spell for full restore should be a partial and full restore should be gradual and much higher in magic and require more essence than it currently does. That will also increase essence sells, etc. Finally, I hate to keep repeating myself but there are no cureall's to mend the sick EL economy. This will take time and even then nothing is ever perfect. But.. there are some quick fixes which can help improve things drastically and bring more desperately needed balance. About magic.. in addition to more variations on healing spells, perhaps a full restore is also too powerful for players who have huge health bar's ... especially thanks to the new crown of life. Full restore shouldn't exist in my personal opinion. Maybe the highest healing spell should be like 120 hp? I don't know... but we don't have potions which give a full heal either. It doesn't make sense to have a full heal spell. We need a gradual heal spell increase.

Get rid of fleeing and players will buy weapons again. The only reason players "think" that they earn more exp without a weapon is because they are conditioned to think this way. The whole point is to keep the creature alive for as long as possible and to flee when it stops giving exp points and then start attacking again to start the experience meter anew...its like turning the hour glass over before the sand pours out. This is how players bypass the exp per creature limit on training attack/defense levels. There is no way to bypass the harvesting exp limit and there never was one for magic, manu, potions, crafting and summoning but the exp on those items per capita is low mainly because it requires much effort to gather, etc etc.. As I was saying players falsely think that by fleeing you gain more exp but truthfully that is only accurate with pvp training. With creatures I look at it more like how much exp gain per restore or srs. Some players gauge their exp based on time like per hour, etc.. Others measure it per monster or per oa or per attack or defense. It all basically adds up to the same exp at the end of the EL day. Get rid of fleeing altogether and more players will buy dissengagement rings and weapons both. Now, I'm gonna run and hide from half of EL. PS I still stand by my previous suggestions such as cooldown on magic, reduce full restore to partial restore and place cooldown on all tools (borrowed from Learner) amoungst other suggestions.

One more thing, there is no such thing as a perfect economy not even in a game so lets just forget about that ever happening because it won't. What the economy needs now is more balance and placing a cap on experience per hour or better yet a cool down on all tools, even a needle will do more to help the economy than anything else. It still won't be a perfect solution because perfect doesn't exist and there is no such thing as an Etopian society, not even in a virtual reality.

Monster drops (we barely get drops as it is) aren't what is ailing the failing EL economy. Its the massive over production of items from the players need to level thus making supply and demand virtually null and void. Demon, you make me laugh lol. Yes I'm a bad goddess because I do harvest blue lupines and I wouldn't have to if I had gold but I don't have gold and I am one of those high level players. I refuse to take anti social and infact I am against that perk because all it does is encourage multiplay which isn't fair to the players who don't cheat. I don't pk so no income from that. I do miss the days of Ros stone drops. I remember that big heated debate about how everyone said that by removing Ros stones from the monster drops it would help to improve the economy. I warned people then that it wouldn't but no one listened to me. I warned people that with the stone in the hands of the harvester the price would skyrocket and the economy wouldn't change one iota. Guess what? I was right.

I have a suggestion.. Even though I personally feel that this idea isn't going to do anything at all to help improve the economy and as it currently stands and is an unfair advantage to large and powerful guilds with high level players.. plus not all players even train attack/defense and they care more about other aspects of the game so its not fair to them either.. This idea could be a special feature, so instead of giving players an attack/defense blessing why not give the guild special access to a more challenging or interesting map? or give the guild a choice of what kind of blessing that they want.. allow them choice so that not only attack/defense is offered or give the guild other types of blessings..features, etc ranks.. etc.. I don't know. Or this special guild god could be part of this experience school you mentioned on another thread where players would manu items for experience only.. Having this guild god alone as is will only promote more and yet more and more massive over production and will still do nothing to change the economy but as a special feature could be interesting with more development. It won't promote players to buy more and more items from other players. It will only encourage a mass furry of getting those special blessings however that in itself will promote more and more leveling.

Case closed? . . hmmm, well that is your right however. Are you closing the case and saying something like you are going to use your time on (you) instead of the game because everyone was not agreeing with your idea. Not all of our ideas are well recieved either but is that any cause to give up? Do you want contructive critique or lies? Personally, I would prefer honesty as long as its respectful, tactful, polite and constructive. I would try not to take it personally if my ideas were not popular. Ultimaltely, you are "teh god" and you do as you like. We are just the guinea pigs who you experiment with and thats our choice of course. Keep in mind that us pigs do have some real EL game experience and we are sharing our views, thoughts and hopefully honest opinions with the development team from a players viewpoint. That doesn't mean that we know what the heck we are doing. It also doesn't mean that we don't have some excellent input. Either way, you are the creator of the game and the head developer so if you have a plan that you believe strongly in then go for it...make an executive decision. Who knows, maybe in the end it will be one of the best impliments in the game. Personally, I still think that its a terrible idea but I am not a developer and I don't see where you are taking this. You also mentioned that you need more time to think about it. I don't think your post is fair to us.. you are somehow trying to make us feel guilty for being honest with you. All that will do is encourage people to not be honest with you. Just because we may not like ONE of your ideas or maybe even more than one, doesn't mean that we don't appreciate you and all of the work involved. Hopefully you also appreciate your own work (and that you ENJOY what you are doing) enough to believe in what you are doing to take any negative critique or comments with a grain of salt. At the same time, its good to have at least one ear open just in case something of importance might be said.. or in this case, one eye since everything is in text. Finally, if we didn't love this game even though its still in beta we wouldn't be here in the first place. We all do appreciate and respect your original game concept, the continued untold hours of development, the team, the mods, the artistic and other brilliant contributions from Roja and every single map creator down to the very last encylopedia entry.. even the little sea sounds that we hear at Port Anitora in the second continent. Be encouraged. Give the idea more time (revamp it a bit if maybe?) and give players more time to mull about it and to help you develop it further instead of just throwing in the towel.

First of all, we actually do NEED those flower bushes and the 5 minutes that you are talking about is more like several hours and thats to buy some basic items.. essence, potions or other items to make those things such as feasting potions because some of us .. if not most of us like me have NO gold in storage.

In all due respect, I disagree 100% with this new idea of yours, Entropy. Its not going to help the economy. The only thing that its going to do is create more opportunities for abuse. I'm saying this from an experienced player's perspective and not that from a developer, of course. I also think its an unfair advantage for any guild to have, especially the larger more powerful ones with the high level players.

While the tone that you used in your post is kinda rude (sorry to say that, but a lil more gentleness wouldn't have hurt. Ent Asked for everyones opinions or he would have posted a PM to whom he wanted to listen. If he asked us for our ideas/suggestions how can we waste his time trying to make them? it's his job to choose what is good/bad to listen. not mine, not yours.) i consider the idea of giving a cooldown time on manufacturing/jewelry tools a great idea. consider it as 4) on things to do on my post. cheers. I apologize if what I said sounded rude. I didn't intend it that way. I wasn't referring to the opinions as a waste of dev time but rather if these ideas were actually to be implimented because in my personal opinion changing formulas won't be the aspirin everyone is seeking...Actually he invited suggestions and thats what everyone is doing. Some disagree with each other and simply voice that opinion. Please forgive me if what I said offended you. It should be harder. Its entirely too easy as it is. Thats the whole point isn't it? Maybe instead of having higher and higher levels there should be more challenging things to do such as level restrictive maps to explore, harder quests, etc etc.. This game is still very much beta and still very much evolving. So, who knows which direction it shall go. Time will only tell. Now.. I bid you all goodnight.

Stopping NPC from buying all harvestable won't fix the economy anymore than changing the formula's for iron broad swords or just about anything else. If you stop NPC from buying harvestables, then stop them from buying anything at all therefore creating an actual economy based on supply and demand and not on the need to level. This is more realistic. NPC buying harvestable is actually not bad because people are poor as it is yet continue to over produce in massive quantities. I like what Learned suggested to me in PM once and that is to place a cooldown on ALL tools in addition to magic... Of course I like my original suggestions in my first post in this thread.. scroll back to page one if you want to read. I also think it would be interesting to limit how much experience is gained per hour per skill the same as we do for harvestiing... I don't want to repeat everything that I've said previously. All I will say now is that changing formulas isn't going to rehabilitate the economy. That won't change much of anything at all because we need more balance in this game than it has. It lacks balance and changing the forumlas won't give it just like placing a cooldown on food didn't give it because players were able to bypass that cooldown by using feasting potions and can now mass produce on even a greater scale than before.. so then what? As Learner suggested, we place a cooldown on the actual tools. Its late here.. have fun trying to create formulas which will do nothing more than just waste more dev time.

I've removed this post to save room on my server.. sorry!

I still say the biggest problem is overproduction because everyone wants to level as fast as they possibly can. I think that was part of the purpose of the cooldown. Speaking of the cooldown, Learner suggested that perhaps there needs to be a cooldown on tools and reduced on food or instead of food. I didn't agree with him at first but now after thinking about it more I do agree with Learner. We also need a cooldown on all tools..even on magic. Leveling and productions needs to slow down a bit. Don't forget this is a MMO game. The game tries to make things as realistic as possible within a fantasy/medieval realm. Only machines could mass produce the way the players on this game do and even then not with such perfection.

However I dont agree with these 2, Taxes on a storage is just crazy, every1 uses the storage and we have the storage so we can store our items that we have, having taxes on it is just ridiculous in my view. Also yes powerhungry might be 3 free pps but you have lots of capes to choose from and the ps cloak only works if ur not researching anything or dont need mp or ep, so its very useful for people who need the pp and are still researching stuff then the cape doesnt cancel out. Also the greater failure rate i dont like if people work hard enough to get all the supplies to make a lot of item there shouldnt be a limit they worked hard to get the supplies and deserve the xp. - Kougria Powersaving when worn with those who have powerhungry perk actually does cancel the perk out while wearing it. I didn't say to get rid of the cloak.. but to get rid of the perk or make the cloak not work with the perk as it says at the wraith. Its kinda cheating in a way to have the cloak work with the perk because it enables the player to bypass the disadvantage of the negative perk. Greater failure seems realistic and the whole point is to discourage mass over production.. or another solution would only allow players to harvest X number of whatever per hour and the same with manu, crafting or potions or even fighting.. lets be real.. no one could fight in reality 24/7 .. so after x number of exp per hour you stop getting it?? I don't know. .. .. But the greater failure rate is also a thought. Taxes on storage is also realistic, especially based on wealth, etc etc etc.. Its very realistic. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been implimented before. The higher levels one has.. the more exp he/she is allowed to earn per hour? That also seems realistic. We need a cap on mass production of all kind, including fighting.. it also encourages the player to develop other skills or to participate in quests, etc. Its just a thought..

What the economy needs actually is an entire new interface...how we play and percieve the game altogether. Something has been lost here.. ambience has died... and making it yet easier to mass produce or easier to level isn't going to improve anythiing at all except to fulfull the addictive needs to compete on massive mindless clicking level. People need to stop thinking in BIG numbers such as mass production of items simply to "level" up. NO, mira doesn't need to pay more. NO, we don't need NPC to buy everything simply to encourage everyone to mass produce as much as possible. Things need to be harder to make and there needs to be greater failures for the more items made per day or week, etc.. Just like we are only allowed X number of harvesting points per hour. The only serious problem with the economy other than what I've already posted previously is that the players over produce. That is what needs to stop.

I have several suggestions which I've been thinking of for awhile now: Increase the passage price to C2 500 for regular players and 1.5K for antisocial..C2 should be a little more difficult to travel than it is now. I also don't feel that rings should work between two continents and I've always said that. The way it is now the price of passage is cheaper than the ring. This doesn't make sense. Bring a little roleplay back into the game. Artificial perk.. get rid of it altogether or change the random factor in it.. decrease the chances of creating enriched items because now the market is saturated with enriched essences. Stop selling EFE in the shop or sell it for much higher prices. EFE is supposed to be worth something. Now it isn't. Get rid of the MM perk. This will promote more sells for fighters and the MM cloak will once again have some value. Have Cyclops discontinue to drop the tit long. Its a valuable weapon and its dropped so often that the value is worthless. No one even bothers to buy them anymore. Books are good as drops but should be less frequent. Also I suggest that the NPC increase book prices to sellers since they did for buyers.. that is only fair. Greater failure rate when making more than X number of anything per day to prevent over production of items in order to simply "level" those flooding the market. Change restoration from a full restore to a partial restore at magic level 21 and evolve to a full restore at a much higher magic level (if at all). Healing spells need more variety than 5 hp/7hp and then a full restore? That doesn't make sense at all. A full restore is too powerful in the first place and makes it too easy to "level" up. Bring back level restrictions for armor and weapons and even for making items, etc. Don't worry, people will still buy from the shop. That will make them want to work harder on the evolution of their char. Find more uses for the serp stone. It is also another worthless item. When I first started playing 16 months ago it sold for 1.5K and now you're lucky to get 100gc. It shouldn't be like that. Impliment taxes on storage. Everyone must pay taxes based on how many slots are filled or perhaps based on how much gold or perhaps based on how many expensive items or perhaps based on something entirely different. Taxes would be good. Reduce cooldown on rings or get rid of it altogether. Rings are practically useless now. No one even bothers with damage rings anymore and forget diss rings, too. Pk is nearly impossible with a cooldown on diss rings. Also reduce the cooldown on food. Impliment quests for every 10 levels.. it shouldn't be so easy to "level up". If a player didn't complete his quest he doesn't proceed to the next 10 levels. The quest should be slightly difficult. I'm not a programmer so I honestly don't know how difficult this would be to impliment. Impliment knowledge to make SRS. Get rid of powerhungry perk because its just 3 FREE pick points since everyone who has it also uses the powersaving cloak which cancels the disadvantage of the perk thus making it null and void.. or make it so the powersaving cloak doesn't work for people who have the powerhungry perk. It does say that these two shouldn't work together and yet they do.

Great idea Terena. We need more role play in this game. I think EL has lost something lately..more roleplay would help to balance that out. If you do future events, let me know and I'll help you to furnish some prizes.